Contrary to popular critical opinion, by emotional investment is has little to do with anger… well, not personal anger, rooted in some form of grudge as such.  I don’t happen to accept the premise that anger is by default disqualifying.  I think anger is appropriate in the face of such horrific treatment. But I digress.

 
Was I booted?  For all practical purposes, yes.  They invited me to leave, in their own, winsome smiling bowing way that implies maybe it would be best, without ever actually saying “Get out.” A strange hedge considering the pastoral staff referred to my presence as “deleterious” which means evil, wicked, pernicious and destructive. At least that is what my Care Group leaders dictionary defined the word.  (Thanks Mike and Robin. I still have those meeting notes)

 
Since I didn’t just leave, the leadership made it functionally impossible for me to participate.  I was asked NOT to attend care group.  I was told bluntly that I would never be given opportunity to participate in any of their other service outreaches. The message was clear… you can come on Sunday, but don’t “influence” anyone, which means I couldn’t TALK to anyone. And the quarantine pretty much extended to all those people who called me “friend.”  When it was crunch time, they treated me like I had cooties.

 
It took a while, but I realized I could never win against the SGM war of attrition … I quite attending. It took about two years for my “pastor” to write a letter wondering where ever had I gone, as if he were an innocent bystander in the grand game of pastoral thuggery.

 
Maybe someday I will post his letter … and my response.  LOLOLOL… that would be a hoot. 

 
Anyway… I would be glad to talk.  My email is john@spiritualtyranny.com

I find your disourse with Pia to be fascinating.  I am presently researching Greek philosophy to see what you guys are talking about!

I have been attending a SGM church in PA for 8 years and I am becoming increasingly dissatisfied.  I could go on at length but it’s nothing you haven’t already heard before!  This business with CJ and our leadership saying “trust me, we will let you know what to think about it when it is all over” leaves me saying “Huh?”

I would appreciate an email dialogue with you when/if you have the time.

Thanks

Dan
 

Juli… good quote by Thomas Paine BTW.

Harvey… great dissection of the irony. I do so love irony.

DB… as always insightful and pointed with moral clarity of the proportion of this issue. 

 Glad you are all still reading.

Pot Kettle Black

Meanwhile, there are serious issues at hand such as the mishandling of numerous molestations.

But what does our patriarchal superhero in the burka have to say?

He drops the bitter red herring (Bitter is one of those things SGM folks throw at people when they don’t have a legitimate response.)

Now, we get to be called feminazis.

What a brilliant contribution to discourse.

And, Mr. Pot, what are your thoughts with respect to the mishandling of multiple molestations?                     

So what you’re also saying here (aside from the feminazi stuff) is that John (or anybody for that matter) can’t/shouldn’t be mad at the child molester (A) and the child molester’s protectors/church leaders (B), but we can/should be mad at John for being mad at A & B. John can’t “judge” A & B, but we can judge John for judging A & B. So for you, John is the Enemy here for being mad at the child molester and his protectors/pastors who would rather protect the molester rather than the molested child. He’s worse than the A & B and therefore deserves to be judged by you. And even though he’s also a “sinner” (calling him the enemy obviously makes him a sinner in your book), he doesn’t deserve any mercy at all because he’s badmouthing church authorities, right? If he were the child molester or one of the molester’s protectors, we can be merciful to him, right?

Hmm. Is this a requirement at some churches? (Your church maybe?) Protect and serve (and revere, of course) the church authorities at all cost, never mind that they’re protecting child molesters? Let’s just look beyond how the church authorities treated Noelle and Grizzly’s family. That’s not really the issue here. The BIG issue here is John being mad at how the molested child and her family were treated, right? Let’s crucify John for ranting because a child had been molested and that the church leaders treated the little girl’s family horribly. OK, maybe not crucify, at least not now, but let’s call him the enemy. Let’s call him judgmental, hypocrite, and merciless and lacking grace. Let’s just forget about the little girl and her family. Let’s forget that the church leaders will choose to protect a child molester for the good of the Church. What’s the big deal with molestations going on at churches and church authorities protecting molesters anyway? The important thing is to defend the Church and the church leaders. Church leaders should not be put in a bad light because they’re the “authority.” They’re the chosen ones. They can do no wrong. And in case they do something wrong (because it’s God’s will and there must be a very good reason for it) and someone actually had the nerve to say so, then let’s go after that person. He’s the REAL bad guy here, right? We should teach this person not to mess with authorities. So screw you, John. You’re the Enemy!

Define “authority over women”
Define “unbeliever”
Define “sin”
Define “Word of God”

when you realize that presuppositions such as these (and that is what they are) also presuppose that your views are correct and other views, are, well, wrong – then you might understand how it was possible for a pagan to display such grace who “gets it”, even though, according to you, they would also be an “unbeliever” who didn’t believe in the “Word of God”, “sin” or didn’t give a rip about authority of men over women.

God did SUCH a good job when he created us in his image that definitions, dogma, and doctrines don’t mean jack. Try reading anything extra-biblical to expand your knowledge base, or if you can’t bring yourself to that, try reading other interpretations that are contrary to your own. “It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” Thomas Paine

You like that spirit.  

 
As for calling the women posting on this blog Feminazi’s….  I know that small minds must steal the intellectual creativity and abilities of others, but if you are going to hijack Rush Limbaugh’s coined term Feminazi at least use it correctly.

Well said. Finally, a Christian on a Christian blog, with a Christian perspective and a Christian attitude. 

For the critics slamming their brothers, did it ever occur to you that there isn’t critic who isn’t a hypocrite? You’ll find that in Romans 2.

Also, how did you miss the fact that the only people God saves are sinners, and they never seem to stop. That includes you and me. How did you miss the wisdom of God in, “blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy” and “for with the same measure that you mete it shall be measured to you again.”

It’s so easy to get angry and self-righteous. But how many minutes should it take to say, “Wow, Lord. I’ve done far more wrong than this.”

I’ll say it again a little differently. ONLY hypocrites point their fingers.

How many unbelievers are reading this blog and saying what Jesus wants them to say, “Look how they love one another.” The only people you can love are sinners… guilty sinners.

When you screw up (and Jesus promises that you’re reap what you sow, so you have to screw up so that you can reap what you’re sowing), how do you want those who watch you to treat you?

I remember years ago when I was talking to a pagan and somehow a thief came into the discussion and this pagan said, with graciousness, “I’ve stolen too.” I was amazed that this man, who didn’t know the Lord Jesus, refused to let his heart judge a thief because he recognized his own guilt.

Just imagine for a moment how the church — your church, would be if all of you had the attitude, “I want to reap mercy and grace when I screw up, so I’m going to show it.”

You may think that your finger pointing suggests that you’ve got it together, but those who know the Word know we fault others because we’re guilty.

Tell me… is this obtuse?

Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 And do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment upon those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

I’ve actually been in people’s presence and shared these Scriptures and guess what ALL of them say.

“I am not!” “I did not!”

Yeah, God’s stupid and a liar. He made it up because He doesn’t have good sense.

Look how long it has taken CJ to come to see his pride. It’s been years. That should give you pause to look in the mirror and say, “Oh God, put a watch over my mouth!”

As I said, I was just passing by. I know none of you and have never even met any of you. I only see the pride, hate, judgment and contempt and realize that WHILE you’re pointing the finger, walk in front of the mirror. Stop focusing on the sins and remember that Jesus ONLY forgives the guilty. Aren’t we supposed to be like Him? 

Wow. You can’t even see why God put men in authority… you just know you HATE IT!

…and will pretend it’s the doing of men and not God.

Feminazis have nothing on you!
 

Public schools?  Seeking to teach critical thinking?  What?  No more of John Dewey’s pragmatic progressive education?  Let me check the sky to see if it is falling. LOLOLOL
***
“I first read her writings when I was doing my Master’s  years ago and it was a treat to hear her in person.  Almost everything she said today was exactly what you and I have been talking about regarding most people’s unwillingness to become true intellectuals.”

Well… this is a challenge, because at the moment our leading philosophical leader is Kant… who laid the ax to the root of Man’s rational faculties, and gave new life to the Plato/Augustinian worldview that has dominated western thought for a very long time, when you keep telling people that thinking is useless and ideas are irrelevant, and philosophy is vain, eventually everyone say “piiffle… we don’t need no stinkin’ thinkin.’ “  For thinking to become important,  for intellectuals to return, we must advocate rational value. Then we must defend the intellectual by defending his property at all costs.
 ***

“ Losing almost everything to leave my tyrannical husband and eventually my tyrannical church was indeed a severe penalty at that time…but man, it saved my soul; my kids’ emotional, mental and physical health; and my authentic relationship with God. “

Yes, the stakes really are that high.  Actually they are higher. Individually, the stakes can wreck a life… if you let it … But if these ideas take root in a culture, it wrecks everyone’s  life.

Pia… I am glad you are out there and it is a thrill that you get the point.

Valuable Intellectual Traits by Dr. Linda Elder

Intellectual Humility: Having a consciousness of the limits of one’s knowledge, including a sensitivity to circumstances in which one’s native egocentrism is likely to function self-deceptively; sensitivity to bias, prejudice and limitations of one’s viewpoint. Intellectual humility depends on recognizing that one should not claim more than one actually knows. It does not imply spinelessness or submissiveness. It implies the lack of intellectual pretentiousness, boastfulness, or conceit, combined with insight into the logical foundations, or lack of such foundations, of one’s beliefs.
Intellectual Courage: Having a consciousness of the need to face and fairly address ideas, beliefs or viewpoints toward which we have strong negative emotions and to which we have not given a serious hearing. This courage is connected with the recognition that ideas considered dangerous or absurd are sometimes rationally justified (in whole or in part) and that conclusions and beliefs inculcated in us are sometimes false or misleading. To determine for ourselves which is which, we must not passively and uncritically “accept” what we have “learned.” Intellectual courage comes into play here, because inevitably we will come to see some truth in some ideas considered dangerous and absurd, and distortion or falsity in some ideas strongly held in our social group. We need courage to be true to our own thinking in such circumstances. The penalties for non-conformity can be severe.
Intellectual Empathy: Having a consciousness of the need to imaginatively put oneself in the place of others in order to genuinely understand them, which requires the consciousness of our egocentric tendency to identify truth with our immediate perceptions of long-standing thought or belief. This trait correlates with the ability to reconstruct accurately the viewpoints and reasoning of others and to reason from premises, assumptions, and ideas other than our own. This trait also correlates with the willingness to remember occasions when we were wrong in the past despite an intense conviction that we were right, and with the ability to imagine our being similarly deceived in a case-at-hand.
Intellectual Integrity: Recognition of the need to be true to one’s own thinking; to be consistent in the intellectual standards one applies; to hold one’s self to the same rigorous standards of evidence and proof to which one holds one’s antagonists; to practice what one advocates for others; and to honestly admit discrepancies and inconsistencies in one’s own thought and action.
Intellectual Perseverance: Having a consciousness of the need to use intellectual insights and truths in spite of difficulties, obstacles, and frustrations; firm adherence to rational principles despite the irrational opposition of others; a sense of the need to struggle with confusion and unsettled questions over an extended period of time to achieve deeper understanding or insight.
Faith In Reason: Confidence that, in the long run, one’s own higher interests and those of humankind at large will be best served by giving the freest play to reason, by encouraging people to come to their own conclusions by developing their own rational faculties; faith that, with proper encouragement and cultivation, people can learn to think for themselves, to form rational viewpoints, draw reasonable conclusions, think coherently and logically, persuade each other by reason and become reasonable persons, despite the deep-seated obstacles in the native character of the human mind and in society as we know it.
Fairmindedness: Having a consciousness of the need to treat all viewpoints alike, without reference to one’s own feelings or vested interests, or the feelings or vested interests of one’s friends, community or nation; implies adherence to intellectual standards without reference to one’s own advantage or the advantage of one’s group.

———————–
While many of her ideas definitely resonate with me, I want to highlight the following about intellectual courage:

“This courage is connected with the recognition that ideas considered dangerous or absurd are sometimes rationally justified (in whole or in part) and that conclusions and beliefs inculcated in us are sometimes false or misleading. To determine for ourselves which is which, we must not passively and uncritically “accept” what we have “learned.” Intellectual courage comes into play here, because inevitably we will come to see some truth in some ideas considered dangerous and absurd, and distortion or falsity in some ideas strongly held in our social group. We need courage to be true to our own thinking in such circumstances. The penalties for non-conformity can be severe.”

Again, I had to think of the PDI/SGM groupthink phenomenon when I read this and felt almost embarassed that it took me so long to see how dangerous and absurd their ideas were and how long it took me to stand up and speak out publicly (without covering up my identity) so others still trapped in the system could be warned.  In fact, had I not found Kris’ blog, I might never have opened my mouth.  Losing almost everything to leave my tyrannical husband and eventually my tyrannical church was indeed a severe penalty at that time…but man, it saved my soul; my kids’ emotional, mental and physical health; and my authentic relationship with God.  Standing up for TRUTH might be terribly severe (look what happened to the prophets and to Jesus) but it is sooo worth it in the end and it will indeed set you free!