This blog apostle gig is exhausting. I have to talk endlessly about Submission and Authority. I have to figure out how to justify an apostolic authority without an apostolic succession since I’m not Catholic.
And I have to protect all those people with my apostolic authority.
Oh, wait…I can’t say that. Because when it comes time to actually cover someone, where am I?
….
…..
….
You know…screw it…I think I have been too subtle. Let’s try blunt. It turns out that I can’t get my Funny Bone re-attached on this one.
Let’s try ranting, raving flamingly, in your face unapologetic. Noel told her story on www.sgmsurvivors.com about her three-year-old daughter being molested by a 15-year-old boy in a Sovereign Grace Ministries church, and the ensuing pastoral counseling ordeal that spans YEARS. The boy lies to the pastors about his actions and his evil. The pastors, in a stroke of utter insanity, play spiritual patty cake with the boy and villainize the parents. Why? What can be the logic? What can be the motive?
I can’t begin to understand the stunning lack of objectivity in the actions of seemingly every Sovereign Grace Ministries “leader” associated with the story. And since every “leader” at SGM keeps note on EVERYBODY, that would leave NOBODY out of the chain of responsibility.
I marvel at the lack of concern for justice: the stunning obfuscation between vengeance and justice. I marvel at the utter impatience with Noel and her husband Grizzly to work through the process of their own grief. I marvel at SGM “leadership” determination from the outset to minimize what this 15-year-old had done.
(What did it matter if the child was asleep while she was being fingered? What did it matter if she never knew? So if I shoot, say, Robin Boisvert in the head while he’s sleeping, that makes the assault less immoral? Can I be on staff if I don’t call John Owen a sissy? Since I did it while Robin was sleeping, I should be qualified? He never knew after all?)
Larry Tomczak, where the Hell are you, in all your Apostolic Glory? Che Ahn, where are you in all your submission and authority magnificence?
I know WHAT you are. A couple of gutless-wonder charlatans more interested in a form of righteousness and a pathetic need to justify your own existence and not a shred of action that even pretends at the power of apostolic office. I mean what EXACTLY is this Apostolic authority used for? I mean really… isn’t THIS the thing you national SPIRITUAL AMBASSADORS claim to be FOR? Defending? COVERING? PEOPLE?
You were PRINCIPAL parts of the insanity that has become Sovereign Grace Ministries. You know the inner workings. You both suffered those inner workings. How can you turn a blind eye to the methods: their power and determination to tyrannize? What are you clinging to? Some absurd super spiritual determination for reconciliation?
There is no reconciliation with Sovereign Grace Ministries…there is no reform with evil. Chamberlain already tried that. REMEMBER! There is no brotherly participation with men whose governmental philosophy makes them Elected Official, Police Force, Judge, Jury, and Spiritual Executioner–“Men” who reserve the right to doctrinally enforce ignorance or nosiness depending on how it serves their purpose. “Men” who turn their craven Care Group leaders into the Waffen-SS. (You care group leaders are no men… go ahead and cut it all off. It’s useless. No wonder you need CJ to tell you how to romance your wives and act like men.) “Men” who reserve the right to make the sin of lying superior to the CRIME of molestation!!
Larry, how does this fail to strike your very manhood? Did CJ keep your testicles in a box when you “signed” your humility letter? You were booted for lying. A 15-year-old recidivistic child molester lies repeatedly about his actions and because he can read Sin and Temptation and speak the CJ speak, he is put in Children’s ministry. Just think of what you COULD have gotten away with. Your 401K and cushy Montgomery County salary could have remained intact if you’d just been willing to say Hail John Calvin and Goose step down Muncaster Mill Rd.
Che Ahn, how can you remain silent? How can you remain uninvolved? Or are you hedging your bets by some quiet influence behind the scene? Or has it not even occurred to you that you bear responsibility?
Where does this collective unwillingness to emphatically and absolutely call Sovereign Grace Ministries a force of evil in the modern world come from? Dozens of stories have been openly shared on www.sgmsurvivors.com and www.sgmrefuge.com of the tyranny and abuse; and the email pour in from others too scared, or too detailed to publish. I marvel at the apologizing and the endless timidity that tries to pass for humble, clement spirituality: the relentless effort to not appear angry or passionate or judgmental.
Bullpucky and nonsense!
We have lost our sense of proportion. Christians will rail en masse about Todd Bentley’s personal failings and his screwy calls for angelic visitation, but we get timid, meek, and mild when stories of stunning abuse and the cover-up of criminal activity are revealed by former members of Sovereign Grace Ministries? All because CJ Mahaney has elevated himself to poster child of humble communication and a demagogue of the Mathew 18 ethic to mean he gets to reconcile with only those who have offended HIM?
Are you JOKING?
The implications here are vast. When Evil can call itself Righteousness and then parade itself with impunity and those defending TRUE Righteousness must apologize for bringing a judgment, humanity is LOST. Christianity has forfeited the right to be called Salt and Light. And PRETEND apostles are revealed for cowardly, gutless, craven, frauds.
Che Ahn, if you have a fivefold calling now you had one then, back when you were a part of PDI, then the calling did not change. The authority you claim to have NOW is the same authority you should have used to stop the madness. So, how is it you think you are absolved? What? You think because you are part of a bunch Charismatics dubbing each other Apostles that you have arrived? Is Apostle-ness expressed in word or is it in DEED?
Whatever. Your theologizing is irrelevant.
You are BOTH a couple of gutless frauds. If you can’t speak out openly, publicly, and with moral clarity, and utter, absolute, outrage at the conduct of your “Apostolic Brothers” at Sovereign Grace Ministries, you have forfeited the right to call yourself a lover of righteousness, or covering for people. (And this goes for ALL national “Apostles” that fail to do their job!)
Stay comfy in your apostolic office. Furnish it well with tithes and offerings. Be at ease in your silent cowardice. Keep covering the asses of all those other “men” who need someone to have spiritual asses covered. You and your butt buddies can guard the prophecy mic… make sure nobody speaks in tongues out of order. That is a very, very, very important apostolic responsibility. Make sure everything is decent and in order. Keep your priorities straight and your reputations pristine. People need to be able to look up to their spiritual coverings after all. Well… in your case look behind, since you are very obviously not in FRONT.
It’s okay… The work of resisting the evil pouring out of the cesspool of SGM is being done.
The women and children are carrying the fight against the misogynistic forces of evil at Sovereign Grace Ministries. Well, the women and children are carrying carnage.
“While some of these complaints are merely the unwillingness of some people to submit to what I believe is biblical authority,..”
Mike, there is your real problem and a huge sin trap for you, my friend. It is from Rome. Not from scripture…which teaches that those who function within the Body are lowly servants. Jesus Christ is the authority.
But your errant interpretation works well to give preeminance to certain men. And believe me, it is everywhere these days. I fear for your souls. It never occured to you that such “Great men of God” as they are described by many, could be deadly wrong, but they are.
.-= Lin´s last blog ..The Final Inspection =-.
Mike, I meant to include that your comments show that you believe “biblical authority” is your interpretation of proof texts that have been taught and translated into human authority in the Body. Sort of an Apostloic succession of sorts which is very Roman.
SGM is a horrid cult that masquerades with lots of Christian make up. I would ignore you except that our own cultists, such a Mohler, have invited you in to the SBC. He tried to have “priesthood of believers” taken out of the Baptist Faith and Message back in 2000. We cannot have that when one is trying to be the authority over others in the Body. It implies that all believers are priests and that cannot be…one would lose their preeminance if that were true.
.-= Lin´s last blog ..The Final Inspection =-.
The entire submitting to their authority thing doesn’t hold water in my case because I was dismembered by the leadership so my rogue status is a product of their own asshattery.
Man…
If any of the information relayed here is true, you folks come across as such childish, bitter and angry people that you’re impossible to take seriously.
uh… then … why comment at all?
Mark-Your comment makes no sense. If what we say is true–if??!!! I know what i went through and some of my friends is true, there is no if. also, i am neither angry childish or bitter. Such judgement plced by someone who has not been involved in our situation shows the very characteristics you lay at our feet. “If” what we say is true then we should be taken seriously. if you are a troll looking for a reaction-well you got one-congratulations, if you are looking for the truth then i suggest you enter the conversation with some compassion for those who have been and arestill being damaged by the beliefs and actions of those described herein.
Sad to hear about all the funk at SGM. I remember TAG, thought CJ and Larry were the bomb. Hung in Cov Life and SGM for a bit back in the day. Interesting blog, I’d challenge you to take it a step further and ask where God is in all of this?
Peace
forthelulz? strange name… but we’ll go with it. And back in the day, lots of people thought both Larry and CJ were the bomb, which is, of course, why people are so fussed after the fact. For all the marketing and packaging … when the veneer has been pulled away… well, it ain’t pretty.
As for the challenge… not sure I understand what you are after. Not least of which the challenge I’ve set up for myself is more than sufficient to my task at hand. If you have something to offer or a means to expand the conversation, you are welcome to take a whack at it. If you think you have a line on God’s involvement with all this, then hey…. let’s hear it.
I found this blog when I stumbled onto Larry T’s name and just followed links.
I lived outside the DC area but attended TAG a few times. As a new Christian I was seriously encouraged and emotionally uplifted. I listened to every “teaching tape” of Larry & CJ’s I could find.
I had subscribed to a People of Destiny? magazine. I later dropped it because it talked about the formation of an association of church plants, ministries, etc. And frankly, I was tired of the charismatic – pie-in-the-sky – pollyanna happy crap.
I was never a part of what you describe and experienced at SGM or PDI. I am sure the pain you all have is real and what caused it IS true. And I know it takes years to work past all the junk. I had a similar experience at a large church in the late 70’s. When I left it felt like a divorce. It is hard to sort out.
As for me, I have never been good at “submitting to authority”, i.e. church leadership, because there is always a downside. As a result, it seems that I am rarely included in the “with it” group and usually find myself being cast as a non-conformist, non-team player, and not on par with the others. There is only one king – Jesus.
SO WHAT’S MY POINT?
This blog reminds me of why I no longer attend a church. Church just isn’t a safe place. Like the old song says, “You always hurt the one you love.” Do Christians really love?
Currently, I am bitter, deeply hurt, and an unemployed pastor. I left the ministry after 30 years. I got sick and tired of being a door mat for Jesus. Spoken to like I am a dog. Now, I have no career, no future. What can one do with 3 seminary degrees?
Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy – and he does it through sheep and … pastors.
It’s been 4 years since I left my church (after 17 years). I still haven’t forgiven the jerks that came in and lied about me and worked to destroy me. I committed no sin, stole no money, and sacrigficed too much. And the denominational leadership has forgotten all about me even though I “bore a lot of fruit.”
I think Heather has the best outlook. In my state I couldn’t have written that myself.
Bye
Hello! I am brand new here although I have been a regular blogger, off and on, at Kris and Guy’s http://www.sgmsurvivors.com.
I stumbled upon this today because I googled Larry T. I briefly read what you wrote on this thread, John, and I have to say I have to admire your spirit :). I noticed the last post was by Jeff back in Feb. so I don’t know how closely you monitor this blog but thought I’d pop in any way. First of, so sorry Jeff about what happened to you. That sucks that the church did that to you and I don’t blame you for running away from it all. My friend, Darla Hannah Melancon, wrote a book she calls “Kicked out of Church” and she addresses the same thing. She and her whole family stayed away from church for 9 years…in fact, she is the only one who is making an effort now to come back. Look her name up and you will see her book and a video she made promoting the book. It might help you to watch it or even read the book 🙂 Anyway, much grace to you bro!
Here’s my most recent contribution to Kris’ blog explaining my experience with all three men: CJ, Larry and Che.
If you go to the official website of Covenant Life Church and click on “Our Story,” you will see this first paragraph:
“In the 1970s, a weekly meeting known as Take and Give (TAG) drew thousands to the D.C. area for passionate Bible teaching. C.J. Mahaney, a young preacher converted in the wake of the Jesus Movement, was one of the leaders of TAG’s successful ministry. He longed for something more than an assembly of loosely connected Christians. C.J. and other leaders wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament. So in 1977, they started a church. A small group of Christians (22 at the first meeting) began to gather in the basement of a suburban Maryland home.”
So what this story does not include is the fact that C.J. actually wasn’t the head guy at first. It was Larry Tomczak who first oversaw all the churches that quickly sprouted under the umbrella of PDI (People of Destiny Intl.), now known as SGM. Meanwhile, C.J. became senior pastor of CLC and the third leader, Che Ahn, later went to start a church in L.A. in the 80’s which he called Abundant Life Community Church or ALCC (now called Sovereign Grace Church of Pasadena). What’s important to know is that these three leaders used to be really close buddies and those original 22 members were truly committed, passionate and radical followers of Jesus. They all felt they were on the “cutting edge” but that also meant they started propagating some of the more “radical” teachings discussed on this blog like emphasis on the headship of man and submission of women, the primary importance of spanking and homeschooling as the norm for child-rearing, the absolute and unquestioning obedience to leaders, etc. Now the three have since gone their separate ways and from what I hear, the relationships are strained at best. It’s really too bad because I witnessed first-hand the genuine love among the three men when I worked for Larry at PDI and went to church at CLC (which most, if not all, SGM staff members still do).
While Che was in Los Angeles, he kept frequent contact with his two partners until the “Toronto Blessing,” as they called it, exploded in the 90’s at ALCC. Larry and C.J., who were against the movement started by Vineyard pastor John Arnott in Toronto, Canada, told Che: either stop the renewal meetings at your church (where they felt bizarre things were happening that PDI could no longer control) or leave. Che decided on the latter and took a whole bunch of people with him (by this time, my husband and I had moved to LA to support his vision and so we were a part of the huge exodus).
Unfortunately, all the things that we have been exposing on this blog, including the spiritual abuse and extreme pastoral control found within the SGM churches also followed Che to his new church, Harvest Rock. Darla, who wrote the book “Kicked Out of Church” was one of Che’s most loyal followers (as was I) and she and her family poured much of their time, money and everything they had into his “new vision” at HR. Unfortunately, as I already shared, despite her faithfulness, Darla got kicked out anyway when the crisis surrounding her son’s molestation became unmanageable and it was easier to just “get rid of the problem” instead of truly finding ways to help this family heal from the deep wounds inflicted upon them.
You know, it’s so tragic that these three men started with this original vision to “build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament” and to watch how far they have deviated from this noble path. I was 19 years old when I became born-again and C.J. became my first pastor at CLC. I was 20 years old when I got married to the brother of Sue Ahn, Che Ahn’s wife, and became a part of their family and later a part of their church. I was 23 years old when I graduated from college and found employment at PDI and worked under Larry Tomczak (turning down more lucrative offers to “give my all” to PDI’s vision). Back then, I put those three men on a pedestal so high that there was just no way I could see them as being anything but God’s chosen, anointed vessels.
I am now 45 years old and in the 25 years I’ve been following their stories, my heart has been broken over and over. I know God must weep over the many, many souls they have knowingly and unknowingly hurt—families and individuals like Darla—who were kicked to the curb and left to fend for themselves simply because they could no longer keep up the façade of the “picture perfect Christian.” Is this what a church built by Peter and Paul in the NT days would have done? Or is this what Jesus warned us about when He said “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees”?
Interested to hear your take on this, John. I like how you think 🙂
Hey Pia…
Thanks for your post. I always appreciate it when people weigh in with their thoughts or experience related to Spiritual Tyranny.
The details related to outpourings and Che Ahn helps affirm my take on Larry T. Somehow he has positioned himself as a casualty when in actual fact, he was in full solidarity with the methods and perspectives, which I think goes a long way to explaining his silence. I have a suspicion that he would still be there if he could have figured out how to ‘reconcile’… whatever that would have meant. Since he came out against Reformed Theology in his own mitigating/decisive way, something in that body of thought tripped him up. Who knows? Maybe they wanted him to shave his head since patterned baldness is a prereq.
I did catch Jeff’s comment. I see all comments that hit the blog. But sometimes I choose not to respond. Jeff’s comment was one of those. He didn’t seem to want a conversation… or at least that is how I took it… and… more to the point… the post bothered me. Of course, I had some compassion for Jeff… and a general disdain for the treatment he received. But I was bothered by the underlying helplessness: the implicit abandon of individual motivation, the unchallenged assumption that the sum of his identity was directly limited to church. And when that didn’t fit the bill, he was defaulting to government subsidy.
Since I didn’t have much warm and fuzzy to say, I decided to wait and ponder writing an article on this subject… but I’ve been up to my ears in another project.
Anyway…
As for the “church that Peter and Paul built”… oh… this is the church that Augustine built. Even that doesn’t begin to do justice to all of the evolutions of thought and philosophical developments that have been grafted into Western Christianity.
As for Leaven of the Pharisees, the answer is yes. What we are witnessing is the inevitable evolution of leaven destroying, rotting freedom and liberty from the inside out. I’ve mentioned Leaven of the Pharisees in Family member Tomczak responds (and one or two other places).
Hey John! Wow! I just went through the thread entitled “Family Member Tomczak Responds” (have a sense of who that might be), spent more than an hour reading through the multiple posts, almost cried when I read Heather’s story (I remember her dad very well because part of my job at PDI was organizing pastors’ meetings), got excited when I read Ted’s posts (never met him but Che, my ex-brother-in-law did mention him to me…and not in very glowing terms btw), and just ended my time of reading with a feeling of deep gratitude. Gratitude that there is a safe place for people like us to go to and have a voice against the spiritual tyranny that you so eloquently speak of. I’m just sorry I only found this blog today since these posts were written a year ago! Wish I had an opportunity to chat with these guys as well. Anyway, I wanted to ask: how can I get a copy of your book “Blight in the Vineyard”? After reading my friend’s book “Kicked Out of Church” which was all about her painful departure from Che’s church in 2000, I kept thinking “I wish there was a book that had everyone’s stories in it!” Stories like the one in Kris and Guy’s blog, Jim’s blog and yours! And now I find out that you already have one written! Please let me know…I want to get a copy for all my SGM Survivor friends out here in L.A.! Thanks and have a great night!
Pia… you have been busy. There is a lot to consume on that thread alone. If you haven’t, check out the Start Here page. That will give the broadest overview of what this blog is about. While I do address SGM directly similar to sgmsurvivors.com and SGMrefuge.com my goal is to unravel the ideas that make SGM and many, many other organization possible. I contend that stories like Heather’s are the result of ideas taken to their inevitable conclusion. Forgiveness is an important part of personal healing, but it doesn’t really remedy the underlying issues. For every Heather story that is written, there are dozens and dozens that go unwritten and new women are confronted with the same confounding forces.
So to actually fix the problem requires understanding the forces and wrecking their hold over human existence. That is no small task because the ideas go very, very deep in our Christian Traditions and have seeped into the crevices of our psyche. Survivors and Refuge tend to focus on the stories and the pains and the sufferings. They do that very well and it is apparent that people are helped. But this blog is focused in another direction: the diagnosis and evolution of the broader malaise.
As for Blight in the Vineyard: my editor has the first 160 manuscript pages as we speak. Then she will be getting another section of 48 pages. And then, once I figure out how to finish the last major section she will get the last 40 some odd. I wanted this to be done a month ago but it didn’t happen.
Blight isn’t a compilation of horror stories. But rather the diagnosis of the driving force of the horror set on context to a specific anecdote. It is coming… and trust me… the moment it is available people will get sick of the sign posts telling them where to get it. LOL
Been awhile. I was wondering how the book was coming. it is good to see an update on your progress!!!
Bravo, John, on all your efforts on behalf of the Body of Christ! I am a History and Economics teacher at the secondary level by profession and I am all about understanding and exploring “the diagnosis and evolution of the broader malaise.” While I do not have the intellectual capacity of Christian critical thinkers like you (although, as a public school teacher and a mother, I try to cultivate this habit of of higher-level thinking in my students and my own children and I am thrilled when they are able to postulate brilliant ideas I can barely comprehend), I am very grateful that God dispenses His gifts to the right people and activates them at the right time. I believe you are the right person to write a book like this…for “such a time as this.” Many years ago, I might have been like some of your blog critics and wonder at the rage behind the sometimes acerbic words you use but God has been unveiling many things for me as He has led me to take a really honest look at my own experiences with PDI (from 1986 to 1996); in particular my very close dealings with Larry (my former boss), C.J. (my former pastor) and especially Che (my former pastor and brother-in-law). I liken your role in the Body to that of the sons of Issachar (from 1 Chronicles 12:32) who were “men that had understanding of the times and knew what Israel ought to do.” Jesus reserved His most scathing remarks for the Pharisees and Sadducees. His most violent, angry actions were towards the money changers in His Father’s house. We know that Jesus never sinned so in all His aggressive words and actions, we know He was never out of line and He was actually doing the perfect will of the Father even during those times. I love that He was always tender towards the broken-hearted and the wounded (like the prostitutes and the lepers) but did not hold back his wrath when it came to the religious leaders and rich businessmen of his day. How opposite to what I witnessed over and over again when I worked to put together some of these PDI functions back in the day (those huge Celebration conferences were a pain in the neck to organize) and some of these pastors’ meetings. I would see the red carpet get rolled out whenever some well-known Christian leader was in town (once I had to rent a limo for one of the guest speakers to pick him up from the airport because it was his “preferred” mode of transportation) or if we had a wealthy doctor visiting our church for the first time. But some woman involved in an “embarassing” case of domestic abuse who finally gets a divorce…some modern-day spiritual leper whose sinful actions were considered so horrible she was deemed “untouchable” and deserving of “shunning”…forget it. She, like so many others like her, was hurriedly shown the nearest exit. I should know. I was that woman. Thankfully, Jesus showed up at my moment of stoning and led me to a “broad place” where I could finally breathe. It’s been many, many years since then and my “boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places and surely I have a delightful inheritance” (Psalm 16:6). My ordeal with PDI, unlike so many others, did not leave me permanently wounded and cut off from the Lord (by the way, it is always us that walks away…He never does!). In fact, I now have a wonderful healing ministry in my church (yes, healthy churches actually exist!) only made more effective because of what I went through. I know my place very well in the Body. You too, John, have your role to play and it is one that could be easily misunderstood by those who cannot read between the lines of your caustic messages. So take this as a note of encouragement, my brother, and when your would-be stoners try to throw you over that proverbial cliff, just remember what Jesus did…He just walked right through the crowd and let TRUTH open up the way for Him. Be blessed!