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Protect yourself
Women and Children First
This blog apostle gig is exhausting. I have to talk endlessly about Submission and Authority. I have to figure out how to justify an apostolic authority without an apostolic succession since I’m not Catholic.
And I have to protect all those people with my apostolic authority.
Oh, wait…I can’t say that. Because when it comes time to actually cover someone, where am I?
….
…..
….
You know…screw it…I think I have been too subtle. Let’s try blunt. It turns out that I can’t get my Funny Bone re-attached on this one.
Let’s try ranting, raving flamingly, in your face unapologetic. Noel told her story on www.sgmsurvivors.com about her three-year-old daughter being molested by a 15-year-old boy in a Sovereign Grace Ministries church, and the ensuing pastoral counseling ordeal that spans YEARS. The boy lies to the pastors about his actions and his evil. The pastors, in a stroke of utter insanity, play spiritual patty cake with the boy and villainize the parents. Why? What can be the logic? What can be the motive?
I can’t begin to understand the stunning lack of objectivity in the actions of seemingly every Sovereign Grace Ministries “leader” associated with the story. And since every “leader” at SGM keeps note on EVERYBODY, that would leave NOBODY out of the chain of responsibility.
I marvel at the lack of concern for justice: the stunning obfuscation between vengeance and justice. I marvel at the utter impatience with Noel and her husband Grizzly to work through the process of their own grief. I marvel at SGM “leadership” determination from the outset to minimize what this 15-year-old had done.
(What did it matter if the child was asleep while she was being fingered? What did it matter if she never knew? So if I shoot, say, Robin Boisvert in the head while he’s sleeping, that makes the assault less immoral? Can I be on staff if I don’t call John Owen a sissy? Since I did it while Robin was sleeping, I should be qualified? He never knew after all?)
Larry Tomczak, where the Hell are you, in all your Apostolic Glory? Che Ahn, where are you in all your submission and authority magnificence?
I know WHAT you are. A couple of gutless-wonder charlatans more interested in a form of righteousness and a pathetic need to justify your own existence and not a shred of action that even pretends at the power of apostolic office. I mean what EXACTLY is this Apostolic authority used for? I mean really… isn’t THIS the thing you national SPIRITUAL AMBASSADORS claim to be FOR? Defending? COVERING? PEOPLE?
You were PRINCIPAL parts of the insanity that has become Sovereign Grace Ministries. You know the inner workings. You both suffered those inner workings. How can you turn a blind eye to the methods: their power and determination to tyrannize? What are you clinging to? Some absurd super spiritual determination for reconciliation?
There is no reconciliation with Sovereign Grace Ministries…there is no reform with evil. Chamberlain already tried that. REMEMBER! There is no brotherly participation with men whose governmental philosophy makes them Elected Official, Police Force, Judge, Jury, and Spiritual Executioner–”Men” who reserve the right to doctrinally enforce ignorance or nosiness depending on how it serves their purpose. “Men” who turn their craven Care Group leaders into the Waffen-SS. (You care group leaders are no men… go ahead and cut it all off. It’s useless. No wonder you need CJ to tell you how to romance your wives and act like men.) “Men” who reserve the right to make the sin of lying superior to the CRIME of molestation!!
Larry, how does this fail to strike your very manhood? Did CJ keep your testicles in a box when you “signed” your humility letter? You were booted for lying. A 15-year-old recidivistic child molester lies repeatedly about his actions and because he can read Sin and Temptation and speak the CJ speak, he is put in Children’s ministry. Just think of what you COULD have gotten away with. Your 401K and cushy Montgomery County salary could have remained intact if you’d just been willing to say Hail John Calvin and Goose step down Muncaster Mill Rd.
Che Ahn, how can you remain silent? How can you remain uninvolved? Or are you hedging your bets by some quiet influence behind the scene? Or has it not even occurred to you that you bear responsibility?
Where does this collective unwillingness to emphatically and absolutely call Sovereign Grace Ministries a force of evil in the modern world come from? Dozens of stories have been openly shared on www.sgmsurvivors.com and www.sgmrefuge.com of the tyranny and abuse; and the email pour in from others too scared, or too detailed to publish. I marvel at the apologizing and the endless timidity that tries to pass for humble, clement spirituality: the relentless effort to not appear angry or passionate or judgmental.
Bullpucky and nonsense!
We have lost our sense of proportion. Christians will rail en masse about Todd Bentley’s personal failings and his screwy calls for angelic visitation, but we get timid, meek, and mild when stories of stunning abuse and the cover-up of criminal activity are revealed by former members of Sovereign Grace Ministries? All because CJ Mahaney has elevated himself to poster child of humble communication and a demagogue of the Mathew 18 ethic to mean he gets to reconcile with only those who have offended HIM?
Are you JOKING?
The implications here are vast. When Evil can call itself Righteousness and then parade itself with impunity and those defending TRUE Righteousness must apologize for bringing a judgment, humanity is LOST. Christianity has forfeited the right to be called Salt and Light. And PRETEND apostles are revealed for cowardly, gutless, craven, frauds.
Che Ahn, if you have a fivefold calling now you had one then, back when you were a part of PDI, then the calling did not change. The authority you claim to have NOW is the same authority you should have used to stop the madness. So, how is it you think you are absolved? What? You think because you are part of a bunch Charismatics dubbing each other Apostles that you have arrived? Is Apostle-ness expressed in word or is it in DEED?
Whatever. Your theologizing is irrelevant.
You are BOTH a couple of gutless frauds. If you can’t speak out openly, publicly, and with moral clarity, and utter, absolute, outrage at the conduct of your “Apostolic Brothers” at Sovereign Grace Ministries, you have forfeited the right to call yourself a lover of righteousness, or covering for people. (And this goes for ALL national “Apostles” that fail to do their job!)
Stay comfy in your apostolic office. Furnish it well with tithes and offerings. Be at ease in your silent cowardice. Keep covering the asses of all those other “men” who need someone to have spiritual asses covered. You and your butt buddies can guard the prophecy mic… make sure nobody speaks in tongues out of order. That is a very, very, very important apostolic responsibility. Make sure everything is decent and in order. Keep your priorities straight and your reputations pristine. People need to be able to look up to their spiritual coverings after all. Well… in your case look behind, since you are very obviously not in FRONT.
It’s okay… The work of resisting the evil pouring out of the cesspool of SGM is being done.
The women and children are carrying the fight against the misogynistic forces of evil at Sovereign Grace Ministries. Well, the women and children are carrying carnage.
Comments
78 Responses to “Women and Children First”
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I have to say, that was refreshing. I think many of us (myself included) still are restrained somewhat by fear of some sort from saying what we really think. And yes, it seems the women are more pressed to actions than the men, but I thank God for the men that are also speaking out! As a mother, I think I can say that it isn’t safe to push us where the safety of our children is concerned. As a former SGM member, I can say that within SGM too many parents have pushed down their parental instincts and are more than willing to sacrifice their children on the SGM alter to please their favorite pastors.
They say, “believe the best”, but I say believe the truth.
Misplaced justice rules Sovereign Grace Ministries, despite calls for change
The way many of us see it is that the bad guys in this SGM church movement crisis are essentially off the hook.
What?
Silence is golden eh?
The sound is deafening…
The church people trying to make an honest go of it and press their leaders for “honest” answers, only to get smacked with new heights of arrogance and shunning practices? Figures.
Little lambs to slaughter? How do you want yours Mr. Mahaney, medium well, I presume?
Well it’s “down and out time” and somebody seems to want a piece of your proverbial donkey. Not surprising.
Actions, so have a way of coming back and kicking you in the teeth, don’t they? He He
Come on now…give us that big smile! That’a boy! Gona go real good with that number on your chest, right?
How does it feel, now that the shoe is on the other foot? Smarts a little? I’m sure it does.
You might want to start thinking about turning over cus your beginning to look “burnt” on dat side…fella!
Remember, failure is an orphan. Who are ya gona play the sin blame game on now?
How much longer are ya gone scream, “ya all have ta follow me cus I’m in charge of your souls montra? I don’t think that plays very well when you’re headed for a ditch Mister, but I could be wrong. People tend to stick with what they know, so throw another one of God’s little ones on the barbie and call your friends…
Religious institutions built on flawed models are kept alive “in the name of Christ”, when in reality they are only protecting the predatorily system they have sought to perpetuate. So go on bro, you’re not alone “in this” by any means. The guy “down there” has many friends.
Religious leaders in Sovereign Grace Ministries, many of whom bear some responsibility for the current crisis, are being embraced by others that bear the name of apostolic oversight, only to their shame.
Is your plate cold? O’ I am so sorry…
Sopwith… Perfect!!!!!
John,
Thank you for calling out these men. All the pastors or apostles that have been in the inner workings of this organization should not be silent. They are not true shepherds.
I can’t help but wonder if it is about money…is their some agreement they signed to keep their mouths shut? Did they get big severance checks, stock options?
If it is about money, Is money more important than we are? More important then God? More important then righteousness? Is it important enough to defile your conscience for? We really are stupid sheep to have ever trusted any of them that are silent – which is all of them.
There ya go, John!
Where are the Christian statesmen? Where are the Christian men?
I’m living proof that a man can allow a system to emasculate him and one day wake up and rediscover his manhood.
Have faith, oh fearful brothers. God is able restore again your strength!
Rise up and be who He created you to be.
I thought Larry T. provided some balance to Mahaney and his ouster disrupted any hope of balance in PDI(SGM)
Perhaps I was thinking too simplisticly. Larry and Che’, I am trying to think the best of you.
Are you praying about this one? Really? It’s a no brainer.
Are you staying out of someone else’s business? You are your brother’s keeper!
Are you still asleep? Take the red (or was it the blue) pill and freaking WAKE UP!!!!!!
Larry’s busy making (questionable) new friends, and Che is busy convincing people that that wasn’t really him “commissioning” Todd Bentley.
I’m kidding-Che might have handled the Bentley aftermath very well-who knows. Who cares… the guy lost all cred.
Oh… you can tell a bit about a man’s friends but you can tell a bunch more about his enemies.
and when it is more important to “commission” someone to lay hands on the sick than it is to openly fight against manifest evil ….
Gutless wonders!
lets clarify…it was more important to commission someone to kick little old ladies in the head, punch stomach cancer sufferers in the gut, and mess around with a lady who is not his wife.
Good job, men!
Ummmm…. I just “stumbled” across this article because I googled Larry T. out of curiosity. (I use to attend a PDI church many yrs ago and never really knew what happened to Larry) NOW I am wondering… why are you so mad at Larry and Che? I know I may sound naive or uneducated (unlike you and your other “posters”) but what do they have to do with your complaints against SGM? They aren’t there. They don’t make decisions for SGM. And further more what good does it do the Christian Community to be “calling each other out” all the time… it seems Larry and Che have moved on. Maybe they have forgiven SGM and don’t really need to re-hash this stuff. Come on guys! Being a Christian is about forgiveness…. build a bridge and get over it…. get it?
Meg…just my two cents (and worth that much too I suppose) but to try to address your question, membership and participation in an abusive organization is not required in order for someone to be in gross negligence (to put it mildly) of their own choosing….meaning: Larry T and Che Ahn, as well as many others are well aware of the ongoings in SGM today..Larry experienced it himself personally back in the day, and just a few months ago when interviewed for an article in the Washington Times he said he was still waiting for an apology from THEM (SGM)…Along with Larry, many of the “Reformed Big Dogs” as the blogs often call them are also aware of the abuses in SGM…yet no one is saying anything.
Imagine watching someone else being beaten to death or physically abused and saying nothing. And then imagine if you said: “hey, I wasn’t doing the beating, don’t get mad at ME!”
Now imagine reading along online to the hundreds upon hundreds of stories of spiritual abuse (some still ongoing) and doing nothing. There is no difference.
Silent bystanders, with their avoidance and refusal to address the spiritual abuse and tyranny going on are just as horrific in my estimation.
So yes, it makes me very angry, personally..to see all that has happened, and then other “leaders” that are aware of the situation throw some lemon juice in that open cut by saying and doing nothing…
I’m a nobody from nowhere..with no seminary training….no PhD after my name…no influence…not a published author..not a public speaker…and no public ministry..and why is it I’m able to recognize injustice and speak out more than these ninny men who should be far more “qualified” to do so than I? They should be ashamed. And, to top it ALL off….I’m a woman!
You said that being a Christian is about forgiveness..I’m hoping you didn’t mean that forgiveness was the hallmark of the Christian life, because certainly it is NOT…but either way, I will have to disagree with your words….
God never forgave or forgives until repentance (a change of mind) had taken place…and He never asks us to do what He isn’t willing to do first. So the ol’ ”forgive and forget” with no repentance in the mix is unbiblical. It sounds Christian, but it isn’t. It’s foolish. (and keep in mind, according to Larry T himself, he and SGM are still not even reconciled after all these years..why? Two words: No repentance.
Until repentance comes..you hammer away with truth…in love…but never compromising truth. SGM bears no fruit in keeping with repentance, they never have. And that is a problem. Unforgiveness on the part of others, not so much. Unrepentance on their part, yeah..big time.
I am not a part of SGM but have benefited greatly from their ministry. Coming from a charismatic background I found their emphasis on manhood and reformed teachings and such refreshing due to what is going on in our society. Their conferences have been uplifting to me as well. I have heard CJ at confernces outside of SGM and he has always delivered a word that was Biblical and pertinent to the moment. Organizations will always have their flaws, but I see SGM as trying to be Biblical and true to doctrine and Spirit in a culture that is out of control. I came out of churches that were influenced by the shepherding movement and know what a cult looks like. I believe these guys mean well, but will make mistakes and will have plenty of nay-sayers. Offenses will come and we learn more about ourselves than our offenders when enduring such offenses. Forgiveness is Christ-like and we wrestle not against flesh and blood. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the tearing down of strongholds. God bless Larry T. and CJ and let God’s kingdom be formed in us through peace, love and reconciliation. Blogs that publish bitterness serve only to reinforce Satan’s kingdom of darkness.Let us arm ourselves with truth and light and move forward with a spirit of meekness and healing. This is the spirit of our Lord and Christ.
Scott … welcome and thanks for your comments. That not withstanding… that is a strange sense of proportion you are offering there. Strange indeed.
Anyway… if you are inclined, keep reading. I address many of the issues you raise in other posts.
in a bit,
John
Scot, Welcome aboard!! I have to respectlfully disagree with you assesment. Yu say you are not a part of SGM and that you have been blessed by CJ’s teaching et al. that is fine. No one has ever said that all of the teaching is unbiblical. It is the daily practice of doctrinal issues for those who participate fully in SGM that is being called into question. It is interesting that some people think Christians shouldn’t disagree with other Christians about issues that should be kept “in the family”, because they think it dishonors the Lord. Well, if that is the case Christians have been dishonoring the Lord from the beginning of the church ‘cuase disagreements arose within weeks certainly within a few years and it has been ongoing ever since, thus all the various denominations and cults that have arisen in the Last 2k years or so. Anyway, i was a part of SGM for twenty five years and know first hand the oppressive and controlling mindset and culture that the doctrines and practice (with emphasis on practice) create.
Appreciate your comments and hope your experience from the outside remain positve. This is a place for those who want to help one another recover from the aforementioned culture and examine the doctrines and teachings that put us in that place. I pray that you read further into the articles here and the other related blogs before telling us we are wrong. i know that i turned a blind eye for some time and reached a place where to support what was happenig was to be in violation of what I believe is clear Biblical truth as opposed to the SGM lens [reformed theology (which lends itself to these kind of abuses)applied horribly] of Biblical interpretation. Enough rambling for one morning!!!
that wasn’t rambling… that was an effective assessment.
John I- thanks. I do try to make an effort to be clear in my communication of thoughts and ideas. It is nice that others can recognize your effort. I am not objective about my abilities!!!
Scot, you wrote: Blogs that publish bitterness serve only to reinforce Satan’s kingdom of darkness.
hmm..
And blogs that publish truth have a way of bringing offense to those IN darkness.
JohnG..wow. you’re in the deep end now, my friend. no wading pool of ideas for you, but I didn’t expect anything less to be honest, given your previous observations. you have an exceptional mind and heart.
hahahahaha. O man.
Hi Lawrence, and welcome to the Arena!
Hey all, I have finally gotten a chance to visit this blog again, and wow, what I have missed!
John, I’ve been wondering. Do you think the abuses done to Noel’s daughter were treated so insignificantly because women and children are generally treated that way in the sgm machine? I remember the church that I was part of as a whole treated women like 2nd class citizens of the Kingdom, ( fit only for baby making and brownie making and meal making, with a chance at the prophecy mic on Sunday mornings, or maybe participation on a worship team). Children were forced into obedience no matter their feelings or thoughts on the matter (such as spanking a shy child because she would not greet someone properly, or forbidding an 18year old from seeing a girl he liked). If we were more valued as equals among the men, would leadership have treated Noel and her family differently?
In the world, men who abuse their women were at one point given a nod and a wink. Now, there are laws to protect women and children. Why is the church above these laws? Do we need to face the elephant in the room? Finally speak of it? That the church has devalued half of its population? Now that would be a conversation I’d want to be in on! While the freedom of women in our country has only grown, the church still keeps them in denim jumpers or maternity clothes. When will Christians realize that half its strength is in bondage to mens’ traditions?
Sorry if I’m spewing. I did a little of that over at the Refgue. Guess I’m doing a bit of squaking today. This is an issue near to my heart.
Squawk all you want, Canary! It’s the truth!
Canary…
The truly bizarre part of the Noel situation is I would bet money that SGM and believes they are pure defenders of woman hood. Now granted, they have manufactured a dictated good called “Biblical Womanhood” and held it up as an ideal standard to be emulated, but they still think themselves chivalrous, champions for pure feminine virtue.
This whole fabrication sounds so noble so pure and appeals to our romantic souls. We insert ancient images of damsels in distress and knights in shining armor and loosely apply some bible metaphors to arrive at the modern day denim skirted brownie Queen.
The dirty little secret is, at the core chivalry is nothing more than benevolent Chauvinism: “I love you sweet heart, and I will open doors for you and slay the dragons to prevent you from worrying, but I do it because I think you are inferior. So please dress dowdy so my masculine ego is not threatened by other men ‘lusting’ after your cute adorable back side.”
So I suspect that the SGM leader’s reaction to the question would be a combination of perplexed and insulted at the assertion they do not value women. Indeed, I suspect they rationalized keeping the matter quite was a defense of a little girl. While the treatment of Noel’s daughter is particularly hideous that offence was committed by the criminal actions of a young man.
The catastrophic judgment and practice on SGM’s part was their utter lack of proportion. This is the problem with Universal Guilt: it eradicates the ability quantify evil action and act proportional to injustice. Over time, they ended up treating Noel and Grizzly with greater disdain than the 15 year old recidivistic child molester. It has been a while since I read through the account, but if memory serves each leadership reaction came as a direct response to what they assumed was a challenge to their pastoral authority and that authority is effectively governance and say it with me now … Government is always FORCE. (And they set out to weald that force against noel and Grizzly)
How Leaders use doctrines is a dead give away to their tyrannical ends. Preachers really use the “Paul’s” misogynistic doctrines to divide and conquer. Incompetent Masses is one of the first three strands essential to spin out the web of tyranny. By claiming women intellectually incompetent they have achieved two strategic ends: removed half of the dissenting populace from the field and divided masculine solidarity with his wife. A man with moral clarity is a fierce intellectual foe: a man with moral clarity that has a woman by his side unified in that moral clarity…
Hahahaha…. Yeah… they don’t make castles that strong.
As for the treatment of women in the church … do we need to visit that conversation in America? Well, the question that really needs to be visited is bible interpretive methodology. Most people don’t know of the Hellenism imbedded in the last 2000 years of church doctrine. They do not understand that Plato has shaped our bible understanding more than Jesus and the Covenants of Promise. When they finally do… I suspect there will be some tyrants that will finally loose their jobs.
modern day denim skirted brownie Queen
I love that one!
I have read the book, “What Paul Really Said About Women”. Every man and woman should read this who want the truth about the hellinization of Christianity (basically, the word means Greek-a-fide). If women knew the historical picture, you are right – there would be no castle strong enough to keep these ancient and irrelevant-for-today rules over women in place. Believing men united as equals with believing women would be a force to reckon with. The WHOLE church finally free and active through the Holy Spirit. I’d love to see it!
Yes, I imagine sgm men would be aghast at my words about how they really treat the women and children. I heard the words over and over. Sure, men loved their wives and kids. I don’t question that. It is as you say. To cherish is one thing. To have your opinions and gifts ignored because of your gender, well, that is what was happening in truth. I swear, sometimes I thought my pastor really wanted to pat me on the head and tell me to go play with the other little girls. Oh brother.
It took time to recognize this. Women are willing participants in their own bondage. We believed the stuff we were told, believed we were pleasing to God by pleasing our leaders. Some women found it impossible to “model” the gentle, quiet spirit that was so misinterpreted among the male population. There was no outlet for our gifts or our ideas, unless they went through our husbands. It took me years to realize that the Lord does not see me like that.
I hope you tackle this subject in the future, John. Half the Church is enslaved, and don’t even realize it.
Canary, you beat me to it: I loved “denim skirted brownie Queen” as well!
although I was more of a long cotton skirted casserole Princess (being single) but I digress…anyway..I’m with you sister! And John, your assessment is dead-on accurate. The sad thing is they are able, with the sweep of the tyrannical wand filled with Universal Guilt pixie dust, wipe away half the church in one sweep by oppressing women, AND be able to call it godly! Sickening.
Canary, I think this is why more women post on such blogs in general. They have suffered some horrific things in all of this spiritual tyranny, not just in SGM of course. There are women about 2 hours from me at Vision Forum headquarters who are buying into the patriarchy bit by the crap-full. Churning out videos about biblical womanhood, and with women likw Nancy Leigh DeMoss and so many otehrs writing books on the topic, Christian women in every denomination can’t escape it.
By the way, Vision Forum as you probably know because you homeschool, has a HUGE follwing amongst homeschooling families. And they proliferate some of the most horrific patriarchy and tyranny against women and children available – all conveniently packaged for the homeschool market. And they have blogs too, of women who came out from under it. Also, there is a blog for women who were part of the “full quiver movement”, cleverly called “Quivering No More” haha
As John always says, this isn’t just about SGM, it is far from it. The tyrannical beliefs and actions are all rooted in the same things he talks about here. Once you identify them and become familiar with the elements, is it absolutely easy to spot tyranny in all forms on all levels when it occurs. And unfortunately, it is ALL around us, not just in the religious arena, but the political, social, cultural,..it’s a cancer. And it must be killed.
Truly, truly said, Juli.
I know nothing of Vision Forum. I’ve home schooled so long that I use my own stuff. Sounds infamous, though. I tend to avoid local home school groups because of how strong the religious rule seems to be in them. And the gossip? Holy smokes. Also, the power mongering was terrible. Now, I’m sure there are some wonderful home school groups out there. I wish I could find one.
Like I said, women are willing participants in their own enslavement. And the problem IS everywhere, not just sgm. See, I love my family. I’d give my life for each member. I respect my husband (he’s earned it!). I tend towards being gentle and quiet, unless someone kicks an already wounded person, then I’m Zena warrior. I have no ambition to lead anyone, to control anyone, to have my name in lights, etc. I live a pretty quiet life here in the mountains with my husband. And yet, when it comes to the topic of womens’ freedoms in the church being stolen from them, I get…well, passionate. I wanna shout, “My sister saints, don’t you see what is being done to you?” I have discovered that I can walk in my role as wife and mother and STILL WALK IN THE FREEDOM THAT IS FOR ME IN CHRIST! They don’t conflict with each other. In fact, I am a better wife/mother because I recognize who I am in the Lord.
Enslaved sainted ladies who are reading this, I URGE you to read the book I mentioned, “What Paul Really Said About Women”. The author (a man, by the way), accuses the centuries old church of slandering Paul. After you finish the book, you will understand why he says that. Your eyes will be opened to how much the Greeks philosophers influenced what traditions we still follow today. You will be aghast at some of the reasons. Absolutely astounded and dismayed.
Sorry John, I’ll get off my soapbox. I just get so danged riled up when this issue arises.
Canary, I am going to get that book. I’ve thought (or known I should say) for some time that the church has historically used Paul and distorted his suggestions and teachings to THEIR own end. Paul was the trailblazer for equality actually, a man WAY ahead and in juxtaposition to his own patriarchy-saturated culture. He advocated equality consistently. The gospel clearly advocates equality as well, -how could we suggest it would be anything otherwise? Throughout Scripture God is advocating freedom, individual freedom to be precise. And that this can be attained within families, marriages, and society is clear. But He also warns against those things that will steal our freedom from us.
John, you’ve touched on this in bits and pieces in your posts…what is the thread you perosnally see and specifically see running through Scripture, manifesting in the gospel, that says once and for all that man is to be free – especially from other men?
Canary..being the cheap person I am, I did a search for that book at the public library to see if I could just check it out – and a book called “Sexual Revolution” came up automatically in the search…haha
So I had to break down and buy it – darn! (insert sarcasm here) Since I was already buying some homeschool stuff I figured I should throw in a book for ME. Yippee! So I can’t wait to get it in the mail and start reading it…that will make, um..7 books I am reading interchangebly right now..*sigh*
by the way, did I tell you I met a guy on a plane recently that was reading Glenn Beck’s book about Common Sense? It was a tiny little paperback, and when I saw him reading it – woah nelly did it spark some interesting conversation for the next few hours. Gotta love captive audiences! haha
Canary, wanted to share this with you, Ellie, and Gracie in particular because I think of you three when I think of powerful women’s voices
“In the Code of new laws…I desire you to remember the ladies..if particular care and attention are not paid to the ladies we are determined to foment a rebellion and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation” – Abigail Adams, in a letter to her husband, John Adams.
Abigail Adams is one of my heroines…she had a prophetic voice it seems…and what she said in the context of the political environment during the founding of htis nation applies to the religious one today. If women continue to be oppressed and not given a voice, they will rise up and fight for their freedom. And we are beginning to see the first bubblings of “rebellion” that leads to liberty in the many brave women who post on the blogs. I admire them, and I applaud them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVloUiTwdO8
Found this whilst blog link clicking today,
I cried.
This guy gets it.
Just TRY to watch this and not have it touch something deep down inside you.
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Jim,
Sup brah. I know this has nothing to do with the actual post, it was just a throwaway comment you made, so feel free to ignore me if you’re so inclined. But I was fascinated by your comment about Plato, partly because I find it ridiculous (but am open to being convinced otherwise) and partly because I’m a college student who studies philosophy in general. I’d love to know how you come to that conclusion.
Also, you must be very clever at hiding your irony, because I actually can’t tell if you’re actually claiming that Paul was misogynistic, or if some people simply use his doctrines for misogynistic purposes.
And I actually can’t believe I said actually twice in one sentence.
Hey Lawrence…. you on the right site? my name is john? are you looking for Jim from survivors?
and if you are on the right site… not sure which comment about Plato and Paul you are talking about?
oh… I see which comments you are talking about. uh…. lets see…
Since you have studied Philosophy then you know what Plato’s metaphysical and epistemological assumptions were about man and the human condition. And you know that Augustine applied those assumptions to Christian interpretation. Hellenism (its world view) dominated Christianity from about the middle of the second century onward. Many of our contemporary doctrines stem from that world view.
I contend that Plato/Augustine world view is not the world view that God sought to instill in his people. As a result many of the historic arguments and debates and subsequent conclusions are wrong. But most modern Christian’s don’t know they are wrong because they don’t realize the historic forces that shaped the specific interpretive methodology.
And yes… you are right… my irony is a bit subtle sometimes…. The question is who’s misogyny is represented in those Pauline passages.
and thanks for the question … I don’t mind clarifying.
Haha yeah that’s what I get for posting when I’m tired. I have no idea why I said Jim, I don’t even know any Jim’s
.
I agree with what you’re saying to a point. Clearly Augustine has influenced western thought in general, and Christianity and particular. And clearly Augustine borrowed from Plato’s thoughts and reasoning, especially concerning the nature of man. But that basically only applies to western thought (and thus only the western church, no?.) How then do the places with the greatest current growth in Christianity (Africa, Asia, Latin America) come to the same fundamental conclusions about the Bible as we (the western church) do? Which were the same fundamental conclusions that the Hellenists came to? Which, I would contend (and I would assume you would disagree with), were the same fundamental conclusions that the early Jewish/middle eastern Christians came to?
Lawrence,
Ok… that is a pretty good response: a fair question. I don’t want to misstate your comment but let me see if I can sum up. Because we have church growth in a location that is not considered “west” and these people are adopting the same ideology of the western church there must be a common source for the assumption.
Good so far?
You didn’t say this but it is implied I think: since they are arriving at the same conclusions their source is bible. Ergo, asserting that Plato is a driving force of Christian theology is wrong at best and a ridiculous overstatement at worst.
A couple of things. First, this assumes that all “church” growth springs from pure isolation and remains ideologically homogenous.
This would only be true of a man with no cultural understanding of western culture, was marooned on mars with nothing but a bible. This person’s conclusions would be worthy of study because theoretically the sum of his understanding would derive from one academic source. But we would have to further decide what cannon he is reading. The Catholic Cannon. The Protestant Cannon. And then we would have to take into account the interpretations that were rendered in translation that have their source in Augustinian presumption (of which there are many)
And then we would have to take into account which specific translation he has been given. Is it a translation from antiquity? Or one of the modern translations. These translations have already done some ready made exegetics that lead to some specific hermeneutics.
Which of course leads to nicely to the issue of translation. Any time we cross language lines we also cross cultural lines. As a result Cannon must be adjusted to best capture the sense of the writers intent and successfully address modern cultural understanding. In the world of translation the spectrum for achieving this goal looks like this:
Free —– Dynamic equivalent — Literal
The constant tension of translation is how literal do we make the text and yet make it relevant to the hearer. The reality is no one is ever just handed a bible. They are always handed two things: the bible and the tradition of how to read that bible. And that tradition starts with the interpretive methods applied to translation.
Most modern translations are renderings of Greek and the few that are not are renderings of Latin. Uhh… by definition these languages are be default Hellenistic. Language and culture are almost inextricably inter-twined. I don’t care if the final language is Swahili the source of the translation held Hellenistic assumptions. And even if the language is not at fault the translators are inclined to default to the historic “orthodox” interpretations. Anyone claiming orthodoxy is without fail appealing to western theology.
Secondly this presumes that all “church” growth springs from the same doctrinal pedigree. All things church are not necessarily all things bible. Denominations are largely responsible for missions work and with very few exceptions denominations are the product of the Reformation. So their intellectual heritage is effectively western.
I am not up to speed on African revival but I suspect a casual evaluation would show that the vast percentage of outreach is being done by decidedly western thinking organizations. (or even worse… decidedly Marxist/Collectivist western thinking… but I digress)
If I thought about it for a while I could come up with a whole list of caveats to producing a truly isolated and subsequently homogenous understanding of biblical texts. I can tell you are a thinker… I suspect you can easily think of a few yourself.
And the fact that you have identified these same ideological assumptions springing up in non western locations I think goes to my over arching point. These concepts are so deeply imbedded in our Christian understanding that they end up finding voice in cultures effectively alien to the West.
This stands as a true curiosity because the bible is written by and too a Semitic People with a very Middle Eastern world view: and the Hebraic World View stuck out mightily in contrast to its neighbors. There world view was in stark contrast to the rest of the world … and it does not share many similarities to Plato’s world view.
…sorry for interupting the Plato convo, guys, but
Juli
if you read this, can you call me? I left a message on your cell.
Thanks.
it’s interesting that we typically doubt man’s ability to arrive at truth independent from anyone else…including the “church”..in whatever form or geographic location that may be.
and it’s also interesting that when we see some sort of collective mindset being manifested, we tend to assume that this hive-mind is therefore “truth”.
Personally, nothing is more beautiful and powerful to me than seeing truth bear itself out in a world full of people individually created in the image of God…and the many shapes, paths and forms this takes is simply breathtaking. And not once does this diminish or compromise the nature of truth itself, it only illustrates its power to maintain and flourish in fact in such circumstances.
yeah… if truth is defined by multiplied numbers believing the same thing then don’t we have to become Budist or something.
What spiritual pedigree do they have over there? A couple billion people can’t be wrong can they?
Who’s Jim from survivors?
that would be a typo… I think the website is refuge. I’d have to check though
Well-50 million Elvis fans can’t be wrong…can they…I mean, maybe the Las Vegas years were as good as the Sun record sessions.
Anyway-sorry for the sidetrack-John-I’m fascinated by your mention of Hellenistic influences on Christian theology. It’s something I’ve stumbled across in my readings of the early church. I’d go so far to say when you hear a Christian preacher go over the “Classical Attributes of God” they are basically using the Bible to try and prove Greek philosophical assumptions about God.
Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
Musicman I think this a perfect example. Of the kind of thing I’m referring to.
I don’t want to over state my case. Hellenistic does not mean without truth. And Hebraic does not mean specifically truthful. Indeed, I submit that Socrates offered the intellectual predicates of reason that Yahweh had instilled in his people. Truth goes abroad in the earth. And like all ideas, and thinkers of those ideas, the Greeks took foundational concepts and pressed them to the next logical assumption.
But the modern theological failing has it seeds in adopting the predicate assumptions of Hellenistic thinkers and purporting those assumptions as authoritative merely because they were advocated by church authorities.
The classical attributes of God is a very good example. Most people will go to the argumentative stake over the philosophical assumptions that the Christian God must be Omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence to truly BE God and never once understand these are Greek intellectual issues. While at the same time be wholly ignorant of the names of Yahweh openly extolled through out Canon: eg Elohay Kedem, Elohay Mishpat, Elohay Selichot, Elohay Marom. And even worse…when the translations of those names are exegete these same Greek Zealots will poo poo the nature of God’s own self revelation as if a general trait of god-ness is more important than Yahweh specifically revealing himself.
I’ve been reading Thomas Cahill’s book about why the Greeks Matter..Sailing the Wine Red Sea. It’s insightful and makes me wonder why I never hear this stuff before….Hellenism has SATURATED the modern “church” and mindset and people don’t have a clue why they believe what they do and why they do…and it really rips open the whole idea of orthodoxy, canon, and everything else….if one dares enough to enlighten themselves and maybe walk away with a bit more truth than they had before.
To whoever writes these articles… I am a member of Larry Tomczak’s family and we left a long time ago from SGM. We were the pioneers of leaving SGM. Please post something that is correct. No offense but it makes me sad that you have to post things that are not any longer true. I would also like you respect everyone even if they are wrong. C.J. did hurt our family very badly but we have forgiven him and gone on with our lives! SGM yes indeed is not a good place for everyone but yet there is much healing that has come about when it comes to all the people who have left. I happen to be a poster for SGM survivors and we have been in contact with the heads of the group. They are great people. You post the following: Larry Tomczak, where the Hell are you, in all your Apostolic Glory? Che Ahn, where are you in all your submission and authority magnificence?
To this I have to say Che and Larry haven’t been connected with SGM in over 10 years. Please be respectful even to people who don’t agree with you. Using the word for male anatomy is not a good turn of phrase. All I ask is respect is due everyone. No, I do not like C.J. but I respect him as a man!
One more thought… you post that Larry turned a blind eye… in fact I saw him work tirelessly to change SGM’s abusive power but was unsuccessful. He cried and wept bitter tears over this whole debacle. He has counseled others that have left as well. If you are interested in hearing about this please feel free to post something here and I would be willing to get in touch with you to discuss it. Also please go on Larry’s facebook page to get in contact with him. We never left those who needed healing from SGM. In fact many have contacted us so please do not think that Larry or Che just up and left. They have thriving churches who have helped heal these wounds. You are not alone in your anger but please I would request that you do it respectfully! Again, I do not like the leaders in SGM but I respect them as men who are albeit a bit confused!
Oh… Anonymous… bless your heart.
Sigh….
I do appreciate your weighing in here. I put this out in public in blog form which means what I say is fair game for whatever commentary. While I do appreciate your emotional solidarity with family and your appeal in their behalf, I can’t let your comments stand unaddressed. Since you have identified yourself as a member of the family, you are then reflective of the family mindset and a glaring example of the core of this specific problem.
I was originally working on another article, but I am going too set that one aside to craft an answer to you and to whomever else is reading.
Give me a bit, and I will get back to you.
As promised I responded here:
http://spiritualtyranny.com/family-member-tomczak-responds/
Wow..I don’t know where to start…how about the end? I wrote a 30 pp paper on Augustine’s misguided (I did love Confessions though!) notions about living here on earth as Christians as having stemmed from his roots in Gnostic Dualism (he was part of a group called the Manichaeans). It was the classic flesh is evil, spirit is good dualism. It was not well received by my grad school collegues – all men, most with seminary degrees. I was a 24 year old female. I wrote how it shaped the Catholic churche’s view of marriage – and I expressed my dismay at the distortion of the true Gospel…I can see its echoes here in this discussion of women…cherished but not deemed worthy to be listened to – too “susceptible to sin” to be encouraged to use their gifts.
I am a homeschooling mom of 9 – desperately want more – but as I got my Master’s degree back in 1988 you can guess how old I am!
I have like ZERO time to enter into this discussion – chicken is rotting in my fridge and my kids are scootering through the house as I write this – But I was finally driven to enter into this forum because of the death of 7 year old Lydia Schatz.I will lay our the trail of breadcrumbs for you: The Pearl’s style of discipline/authoritarian abuse in the Church/Shepherding/PDI/Sovereign Grace (I was in a PDI church from ‘85-’88/Reformed Theology/ultra Calvinism.
I heard a prophecy once that I think actually WAS from the Holy Spirit, and it went like this…”Stop trying to be good, and be yoked to Me”. All of the above are connected in some way to a belief that we can measure up,by our good doctrine, right behavior, perfect kids, and joyful submission to authority – no matter how tyrannical. The truth is – there is only One who is good. There is no city on a hill – only a coming Kingdom.
Carlotta… Thanks for your comment.
I was going to weigh in on your observations on Augustine and ask you to expand your Gnostic and Manichaeans comments. I suspect that most people don’t know why that is important and specifically noteworthy to the underpinnings of tyranny discussed on this blog. Hearing the whys and wherefores from an expert would/could be very helpful. But, since you are in the process of raising your own foot ball team I’ll give you a pass on ongoing commentary.
>Snicker<
However, one thing I would like you to say more about is your trail of breadcrumbs. The name Lidia Schatz does not ring a bell… and by implication her death is directly related to SGM doctrine. That is a pretty …. intense?? trail. I am not at all familiar with the elements of this issue. When did that death occur? What about that death compels you to comment here?
As many bread crumbs as you can drop between scooter sessions and quarter back training would be appreciated.
And… to all commenter’s… for whatever reason my little comment box is not recognizing single spaces between paragraphs. Put an extra space to get separation. In the mean time I will work on getting this silly widget to work right.
John, thanks for your patience with my esoteric comments….could be I have a little more of the the gnostic in me than I would like to admit!
I can’t hear or read Augustine’s name in print without going into a diatribe about my rejected manifesto from a graduate history seminar from 1987…who knew such Unibomber-like angst lurked in the suburbs? One commenter above mentioned the Hellenization of Christian thought, and I thought I would put my two cents in about how his very touching passion for God sadly was skewed by his years of being steeped in Gnostic dualism. This type of flesh is evil/spirit is good thinking lead to the wearing of hairshirts and self-flagellation for some – Simon Stylites (sp?) sat on a 30 ft. pole for thirty years to get to God, and the rest became celibate monks, priests, and nuns. Augustine’s writings on “concupiscience” or sexual immorality were foundational to the Catholic Church’s views on celibacy and holiness. I truly love Augustine’s passion for God, but can’t we see Platonism/dualism written all over this? The person above wrote that this Hellenistic thinking influences today’s church’s thinking about the role and value of women because of skewed interpretation of Paul’s writings.
If you google Lydia Schatz’s name you will read the whole tragic story – a 7 year old Liberian girl being raised in America along with her two biological siblings by homeschooling adoptive parents with six other children. They adhere strictly to the Michael and Debi Pearl school of discipline (please google if you are unfamiliar) and very sadly, beat her with a 1/4 inch plastic plumbing line (as proscribed by the Pearls) until she went into cardiac arrest and died. Her 11 year old sister was found in the house in with Kidney failure from a recent beating. According to the sources, Lydia’s beating occurred because she kept mispronouncing a word in her reading lesson. The plumbing line was on the bed next to the book.
This is spiritual tyranny. This is legalism in a particularly vile form. ” If I don’t raise perfect obedient children who would never quiver an eyelid in dissent against my parental authority, then I am disobeying God” Someone (see Pearl teachings) has put parents under the Law , and someone else has adhered to it to the point of manslaughter. The person who informed me of this tragedy is currently in a SGM church. She is not very happy with some of the thinking there. She encouraged me to look up the SGM survivors or SGMrefuge website, especially since I was in a PDI church in the 80s. That lead me to you. In between Augustine and SGM there also some breadcrumbs leading me through Reformed theology in its most (think Vision Forum and patriarchal courtship models) tyrannical form. This attempt (think Puritans) to build a city on a hill (with perfect kids and wives you never have to listen to!) is counter the biblical truth of a coming kingdom. Reconstructionist thought says that we can perfect all the institutions of this world and Jesus will come back to put the finishing touches on our work. That would pretty much negate the books of Daniel and Revelation.
Jesus hated the pharisees’ control of the people…I believe He still does or you wouldn’t have this website.
Am I making more sense, John? I would be happy to ramble on in more detail if it is helpful.
Thanks for your comments Carlotta. I laugh when I think of all the efforts to maker a pseudo-science out of Christianity and then pass it off as the way it was meant to be.
In grad school, I was lucky enough to have a prof who taught me to think. He used to say, “who needs to think for himself, when all you need to do is know. ” In other words, people buy into a received body of ideas that tears away at your dignity. He also taught me that ‘the great trick of modernity is to make culture look natural.’ Assumed. Think about it. I’m still unpacking that one.
In different words, John is saying similar things. Ive been involved in Christian reconstruction movement. Dominion theology. I’ve witnessed rogue, judgemental homeschool cliques. My wife could tell you stories… I observed a few things along the way. We have notions about truth… Heres one for you to chew on: Truth, as a historical idea, operates in a system of power, especially in the context of community. My major was history, but the real story was when I studied the backstory, eg., how stories (histories) come to be. Why they come to be. I challenge an approach toward truth that says “if you can get all the sources, ll the scriptures, all the … you can know the past, or get to the bottom of it”
For myself, I replace an unending quest for truth with Faith. Grace. It has revolutionized my thinking. You have to begin with faith. The quest for certainty is another red herring. It gets in the way of approaching others honestly, dignified, Christian-like. Whatever the social setting, watch how these two words operate. They tend to define people in ways that limit how they act or express themselves. They espouse a teleology, a determined approach, whether its “don’t let your kids watch smurf dolls’ to carlotts observation that we can sort it all out by exercising Dominion. its a rational, logical and ordered trajectory of progress.. .. We have made a science out of being Christian. And we’ve dropped the ball. Whaddya think John..
Joe,
I agree with much that you have said here – you do understand however that I reject Reconstructionism and Dominion Theology? I like what you said about certainty – we don’t have to have all the answers – only one. We can fully put our trust in a mysterious but loving God, whose thoughts are higher than our thoughts
A ‘Soap’ Box Moment…
HowDee Ya’All,
Carlotta,
It certainly does brings ‘joy’, to ma heart, and ‘tears’ to ma eyes to hear such words:
“We can fully put our trust in a mysterious but loving God, whose thoughts are higher than our thoughts.”
Amen!
Much, of what is pass’in as (‘monkey-see-monkey-do religion’) religion, in the SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministries) system, would simply pail, in comparison, if its members would simply trust God Almighty, trust His dear sweet Son, Jesus, read & be do’in the words in His book,
What?
eh …and do’in their own thinking, for cry’in out loud!
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
In a little,
Sopy
Roots… & A Stroll Down Memory Lane?
HowDee, Ya’All,
Thought this worth a re-tell’in:
“…When Larry Tomczak led the movement, PDI was aligned with restoration and charismatic movements such as Bryn Jones in England, Bob Weiner and the Vineyard. When Larry left and Brent Detwiler took over as primary theologian, there was a palpable change to traditional reformed theology. One can argue the merits of which view is correct, but there needed to at least be integrity and honesty that the movement had changed direction.”
–Ellie @ http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/12/05/out-of-the-frying-pan-and-into-the-fire-or-happy-days-are-here-again/#comment-14504
Integrity? Waz dat?
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
In a little,
Sopy
SGM Approval Rating Downgraded to Zero
HowDee, Ya’All,
Somes times past, someone asked this silly azz question:
But, overall, is the entire… SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministries) church system drowning in a squalor of legalism, control, manipulation, abuse, and false shallow relationships?
Goodie…
What?
Dat sounds like da church fer me! >snicker<
What?!?
He he he
Yous gots to be kidding, right?
BruHahahahahahahahaha!
In a little,
Sopy
Hahah… if more people had that diatribe how the face of Christianity would change?? I know that discussions of Gnosticism and all the 3rd and 4th century rest comes off like a bad case of Inside Baseball to a bunch of Football tale-gaters. But those details bear directly on what we in the modern age think Christianity is all about. Augustine is largely responsible for our, dare I say erroneous, understandings of sexuality. While most people have never read concupiscence, they assume the church has always believed what is really little more than Augustine’s profound psychosis.
The ripples… or maybe better said, the shockwaves, of mixing Platonism into Christianity has horribly disfigured its presentation and even when God begins to reform our understanding the Church gets sucked down the path of that dualistic mindset under the compulsion of tyranny.
As for Lidia Schatz: I am not familiar enough with Peril’s to comment effectively. I did reach out to some folk to see if this was indeed a SGM thing. And the reaction was mixed. They did/do advocate the Peril’s books and resources, but not so much now. (???) They do advocate many of the same ideology when it comes to raising children. But to date there are no reports (to my knowledge) there are no reports of similar abuse or harm from the children within the SGM structure.
Here’s one article: http://www.paradisepost.com/news/ci_14427370
Here’s some good analysis: http://online.worldmag.com/2010/02/25/to-brainwash-a-parent/
Of course readers you can google Lydia Schatz’s and get more info.
And Carlotta …you are so right: “This is spiritual tyranny. This is legalism in a particularly vile form. ” If I don’t raise perfect obedient children who would never quiver an eyelid in dissent against my parental authority, then I am disobeying God”
The progression of ideas that one must hold to begin advocating such things is at their core horrific. Add to that, a doctrine that says “you’re a sinner, you’re a sinner, you’re a sinner.” There is no way out from under this impossible standard. The human psyche is not designed to live in the face of such dreadful internal conflict. This kind of physiological pain inflicted on a young mind is what produces some of the most twisted humans known to man.
Has she left? If not I must say, I am always amazed at this dynamic. People can listen to the SGM teaching and observe the practice have huge concerns in their soul about what they hear, know of objective catastrophic failures of the outworking within their doctrine and STILL remain.
Anyway…
I am not much of a reconstructions-ist myself. Long ago I realized that what the book of the Revelation describes is nothing more than the logical conclusion of Adam’s rebellion. Because of some profoundly inaccurate teaching designed to bolster Augustine’s syncretism most people don’t grasp what really happened in the Garden. Sooo …. understanding they why’s and wherefores of how this all wraps up eludes them too.
I have hinted at this in various articles. Jesus issue with the Pharisees revolved around what he identified as Leaven. There was something about the content of what they preached that was corrupting. I spent about 3 years in the Woodstock Theological library in Georgetown ferreting out what that was all about. Eventually I will have to turn my attention full bore to bring those concepts to light, because that leaven is the fuel of spiritual tyranny…
Deep breath….
So much to do…
And Carlotta … you are making plenty of sense. I’m glad you are reading… and welcome your input as you have time raising your football team.
Thanks John – I’m going on a low internet availability road trip with the family for my husband’s Spring break – will try to corral my thoughts and come up some coherent sentences to add to the pot when I get back. Please pray for the Schatz’s shattered family…those poor kids.
Thank you for having this forum, it is my first foray into the cyberworld, and it has given me a chance to put into words some thoughts that have been swirling around in there.
Joe, an interesting way to put this… “I laugh when I think of all the efforts to maker a pseudo-science out of Christianity and then pass it off as the way it was meant to be.”
I’ve been trying to decide how best to respond: so many comments to be made about so many different concepts. It would be easy-ish to turn this into a post of its own. But…. Not ready to lay it all out. My goal is to keep this tight but that will also mean I will leave a lot unsaid; Oh well… that can’t be helped.
I have said these two things in other places: Man abhors chaos. Man must integrate his understanding of the world. These are drives so implicit to his nature, so consuming of his energy that he cannot escape this any more than he can escape needing water and salt.
But here is the problem: chaos is built into the very fabric of creation. Nothing in creation is stable… BY DESIGN. As a result man wakes every day staring into the face of something he cannot abide. For many people this is the single greatest source of their psychic pain. Their days are spent in and endless tumult over looking for “certainty” that eludes them like so much vapor.
I observe three reactions to this reality:
1. Overwhelmed by chaos they tune it out, reduce their awareness to the concretes of the moments and act surprise with the gremlins of chaos strike.
2. Others decide there is no absolute and let their minds wonder aimlessly from transient truth to transient truth surprised when they encounter a surety, and dismiss it with some form of philosophical cynicism.
3. Create an all encompassing Highest Truth, declare it superior and everything else subordinate. Declare commitment to that truth the measure of authentic humanity, and seek to create a Future State, founded on that highest truth, declaring such an event would make the world neat and tidy.
Pause a moment and consider: you will see that most all philosophical systems are in service to one of the three reactions above.
Dear Spiritual Tyranny Reader, if you are looking for an example of the first, maybe gaze in the mirror.
The second point is Kantian philosophy and the horrific aftermath of his assertions. The modern age has suffered his effort to separate man from his mind, and his mind from reality and we have reaped the disaster of that whirlwind in the subsequent tides of bankrupt intellectual schools of thought.
There is absolute truth but humanity has always struggled to grasp the NATURE of that absolute. He does not grasp its nature because man is at his core, determined to wage war against truth. It is in this warfare that Man exchanges truth for a lie. There is nothing accidental in that transaction. Man purposes to take what he can observe and absolve himself of the correct response: this piles chaos on chaos by piling violence on reality. And here is the thing: reality hits back.
The aftermath of this violence is an ongoing decent into ever increasing measures of self inflicted temporal disaster as man, by steps, exchanges truth for a lie, and another truth for a lie. He will travel this path all the way to absolute degradation and at the very bottom will chip an image out of stone, prostrate himself and one last vane effort to integrate the world into a cohesive whole. The ultimate irony: man seeking to lay the chaos of his deliberate neglect at the feet of an image wood.
The third is Christianity with all of its sub movements and denominations in spades. Plus Communism, and Islam and a host of other social movements that are determined to build a future state. Most all spiritual tyranny occurs in service to this future state driven by the concept of a Highest Truth. This comes from believing that truth is like a ruler that can be wielded by anyone, to measure everything else by a static line. But the ruler gets broken into pieces and then more pieces as each group adopts its own Highest Truth and beats people about the head and shoulders in a mad effort to create a mythical future state where it all makes sense. IF everyone would just live in service to this ONE TRUTH all would be right in the world. So those aspiring to the Highest Truth will seek to create government to bring forth that Future State:
· The prophesied moment when the lions will lay down with the lambs and man beat his swords in to plows.
· The worker’s paradise manifests and the pure men of the proletariat tills the soil peaceably and all have according to their need, from each according to their ability.
· The day when Allah swallows the infidel and the faithful attain peace and enter paradise.
· The earth will bring forth its bounty, and the forces of nature will return to benevolence, as Gaia, pleased by the endless interconnectedness holds all as ONE.
All hail the Future State!
Strike up the anthems!
Pledge allegiance!
Join hands.
We are all children of God, Children of the world, Children of Mother Earth.
We are one.
Feel the brotherly love.
Nothing else really matters.
Commit to the Collective.
Abandon Ambition.
Forsake selfishness.
Submit to Authority!
Make your leaders work a joy.
Kumbiya. Kumbiya. Kumbiya.
Maranatha!
Sorry… getting carried away here. I’ll end there so I don’t succumb to the need to turn this into its own post.
But I think you get the idea and I will let you ask the obvious question.
Millstones around the neck.
I am a little confused. I am legitimately asking for an answer, and I don’t have a sarcastic or malicious tone in my typing in the least. With that being prefaced:
1) What exactly are you holding Larry Tomczak and Che Ahn resonsible for? How exactly are they at fault for PDI/SGM today, and what would you have them do about it tonight?
It would seem that, and perhaps I am just misunderstanding, but it would seem as if you are holding the same legalistic standard over those two the way we all are disgusted at how SGM does their members.
I don’t quite understand how you chose those 2 men, considering they have had nothing to do with that ministry in at least a decade, probably 2 decades for Che.
How can they be held responsible for the current problems within SGM? I am legitimately asking. I am not understanding your Biblical train of thought on that.
I highly doubt that on “Judgement Day” Jesus will hold these men acocuntable for whatever is happening there, or for whatever HAS happened there.
Man, I am soooooo glad that I serve a God who doesn’t hold my past failures, my past immaturities, my past mistakes, my past anything against me. And only HE knows the depth of my repentance.
I would also just submit that it is a very slippery slope to accuse people, and place blame with judgement on someone in general, let alone people I doubt you know personally.
What is frustrating with sites like this is, it continues to perpetuate a cyle of division, rather than a spirit unity or reconcilliation. Do you pray for these men, or just air what you perceive to be their sins to the public? There is a way to “teach” the body about correct Biblical application within church leadership, but as a believer I was quite saddened at your negative approach.
It would seem to me that those of us who have “seen the light” so to speak, would be provoked out of love, not what comes off as bitterness. Again, maybe I am misunderstanding you. I hope I am.
The bottom line is Christ died for ALL of us. He desires CJ, Larry, Che, me, you, the bum on the corner, etc. Regardless of whatever we have all done, the Lord is always at work and HE alone knows our hearts. Larry & Che are STILL Jesus’ beloved. Thet are STILL grafted in. They are STILL your brother’s in Christ.
I would encourage all of us to be careful at how quickly we bash public ministers. I will bring to rememberance that it was false accusations and “public bashing” that aided to Christ’s crucifixion, yet He was without sin. (I am in NO way comparing Larry or Che to Christ, but simply using that as an example of how wrong it is to just jump on the ”word of mouth” band wagon.) Rarely do we ever know the full story anyway.
There is a difference between holding one another accountable within the global Body, and picking apart one another in the global Body. If you have a problem with Larry or Che, maybe you should write to them. Hey, it’s scriptual! I think you’d be surprised at their response to you.
I would love to see these Christian versions of “The National Inquirer” stop, and a little more Christ like behavior shown.
I can’t imaging Jesus is pleased with some of the comments.
I can bet no one would talk this way about their friend’s, yet it’s okay to do so when someone is “just a figure” and not a person in our lives. How can that sit right with you?
I am aware that most of us, especially any “ex SGM’s”, are probably very “put off” by seemingly legalistic “corrections”…….but we ARE still held accountable to Christ AND character whether we are angry or bitter or whatever. I think your posts could be much more effective for the Kingdom if you were to re-evaluate your approach.
Hi, my name is Mike. I’m currently a member of a one-year-old church plant affiliated with Sovereign Grace ministries. In my life I’ve been a member of three different Sovereign Grace churches: Solid Rock Church, in Riverdale, Md, where John Loftness is currently serving as senior pastor, Sovereign Grace Gilbert, in Gilbert Az, where Steve Shank is currently attending as a pastor and representative of the leadership team, and most recently, Grace Church Peoria in Peoria, Az, led by my friend Chris Daukas.
While I’ve never experienced anything like what has been described either here, or on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com and http://www.sgmrefuge.com, I freely admit that such spiritual abuses may have, and probably did, occur. While some of these complaints are merely the unwillingness of some people to submit to what I believe is biblical authority, I have no doubt that in it’s thirty plus year history, mistakes have been made, situations have been mishandled, and yes, sins have been committed.
While this is grievous, it’s not currently what concerns me. What concerns me is the hostility, vitriol, smugness, lack of charity and lack of humility in this blog post and it’s subsequent comments. This ostensible lack of Grace, true forgiveness or understanding of *everyone’s* need for a savior has unfortunately been a defining characteristic of nearly all voices condemning SGM and it’s leaders and I don’t think it serves your cause in any way shape or form. In these rants, it’s extremely difficult to separate the facts from the obviously biased and slanted opinions. This blog post is a perfect example. You’re ranting with as much anger and hatred as you can muster, against two people who have nothing to do with SGM. This kind of backwards thinking and unreasoning lashing out is the reason that abuses take place and nothing is ever done. Who would you be more likely to listen to, the ranting angry guy, or a rational, calm individual systematically holding SGM against holy scripture and defining wrong practices *that* way?
That to me, is the most damning evidence against the entire anti-SGM movement. Scripture is rarely held up as an example, and when it is, it’s usually taken out of context. “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16) So why are you treating it as a hindrance to your cause? How about Romans 8:1? James 5:9? 2 Timothy 2:14? Phillipians 2:1-3? Do you perhaps ignore these verses because if you followed scripture then you would have to extend grace and offer rebuke in a manner that please God rather than just ripping SGM apart and pleasing yourself?
“Gutless ‘apostolic’ frauds”? Where is your humility, grace and charity? Don’t you think those Godly traits would serve survivors of spiritual abuse better than your smug, self-righteous asides? I pray that you are not a pastor or in any form of leadership in a church.
If *all* SGM churches are spiritually abusive, then why have I never felt anything but love and care for my spiritual life? If CJ Mahaney is a criminal, as so many of you are rather vehemently asserting, why is there no ongoing investigation of SGM? If you are the victims, then why does it seem to me that all the attacks are coming from your side and being patiently weathered by CJ and the leadership of SGM?
I felt the need to weigh in here, because I’m a survivor of real spiritual abuse from a para-church youth organization that I won’t name here. Suffice it to say that the environment there was judgmental, legalistic and ultimately, incredibly discouraging. I was held to an impossibly high standard, and if I sinned I wasn’t pointed to my need for grace won by Jesus’ sacrifice but to the fact that *I* needed to try harder. This is the polar opposite of was I experience regularly at Sovereign Grace.
My church is my family who have never judged me despite some pretty blatant and obvious sins.
My church is where I experience grace and forgiveness through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus through grace alone, through faith alone,
and my church is the one place where I know I am serving God and am exactly where I’m supposed to be.
I want to be clear here, I have no doubt that sins have occurred and that abuses have taken place, but as near as I can tell those have been the exception and in fact are contrary to the tenets that SGM strives for. We live in a fallen world and even the most spiritual among us is still utterly sinful. If you’ve ever heard CJ preach, you know that he is the first to admit his own shortcomings. The five men that make up the leadership team can hardly be held responsible for the actions of every person ever to set foot in a Sovereign Grace church.
Contrary to popular opinion, CJ does not run every single church from a hidden underground lair, monitoring the people’s vital signs via nano-bots implanted at the Next conference. He’s just a man, as sinful as you or I, attempting to glorify God with his life, which is more than I can say for many of you, whose soul purpose is not to give God glory, but to see SGM smeared. I pray that you will repent and turn from your sins of bitterness and anger and instead seek to pray for SGM to address these issues and see how they can better serve God’s people. I pray that you will seek to rebuke SGM for real abuses humbly, rather than spitting bile and smugly sitting in judgment.
I commend Heather for her comment. It was nice to read an intelligent, humble, well-thought-out and graceful statement, as opposed to the sickening, divisive, and uncharitable comments that I’m sad to say make up the majority of this blog. Grace and peace to all of you through Christ Jesus our Lord!
Yea… Mike… you guys make me smile.
Thanks for the comment…. or maybe it was a filibuster?
Oh the irony in your words… and I do so love irony. I’ll let someone else point it out… I’ve got sharp readers.
But this accolade I will heap upon myself–Dear Spiritual Tyranny Readers… uh…. dare I point out how right I am … again? All hail the moral relativism!!
The Tyranny of Tone rears its Moral Exhibitionist head.
John Immel´s last blog ..Sense
Well, John, I’d address the smugness and obvious pride in your words being displayed here, but I’ve beaten that particular dead horse near to death with my last post. I will address that your comment doesn’t seem to have any discernible point, and that you haven’t actually taken the time to logically argue or even acknowledge my concerns: IE lack of humility, lack of any scriptural foundation, lack of kindness.
So, sincerely; thanks for proving my point.
And incidentally, read your last blog post. Perhaps you should concern yourself less with the tyranny of tone and more with the tyranny of postmodernism and rhetoric. The gospel of Christ crucified doesn’t change. “Orthodoxy” is not “collectivism” it is simply a desire to live a Christlike life; pleasing to the Father. Not because it’ll save us, but because we are saved. You seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Should orthodoxy be more humble in the church today? Absolutely. Should we be slaves to sacraments and ceremony at the expense of a real relationship with God? Of course not. I know that it’s infuriating when a mega-church passes the collection plate three times before the first message, but you don’t get anywhere by defying the idea of any scriptural authority whatsoever. There is a God, and if there is, then I’m not in charge. Neither is my pastor of course, but He has been called to his position. I honestly would rather die than live in a world where God doesn’t use anyone to His glory. That’s not the God seen in the bible:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.” -Acts 20:28
“Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.”
-1 Thessalonians 5:12
Of course there is a calling for pastors to be held to a higher standard, (1 Tim. 3:1-13 and Titus 1:7 are just a couple of examples) and if they fall short, said pastors should reexamine their position, but to throw out the idea of biblical authority altogether? You’re on shaky ground friend.
Maybe I’m completely missing your point, though. I’d welcome any admonition or correction you could offer if I am. Hope you’re all being blessed on this, the Lord’s day!
oh Mike… you are a gem. You have no idea how much I appriciate you words.
John Immel´s last blog ..Sense
And Mike, could you do me a favor please? Would you be willing to expand your comment “The tyranny of Post Modernism…” for the class? Some might not be familiar with what you are commenting on.
Thanks much,
John
John Immel´s last blog ..Sense
That’s cool. Maybe you could go into why you’re gleaning so much joy from my little diatribe.
Not that I’m not appreciative of smugly delivered, inexplicable asides. It’s just that after reading miles of your prose, I’m still kind of lost as to the point you’re trying to make.
Postmodernism is a tendency in contemporary culture characterized by the rejection of objective truth. What I’m specifically addressing is your seeming willingness to apply postmodernism to the local church, apparently asserting that since there’s no such thing as objective truth, then any attempts to encourage or rebuke are essentially evil. I simply don’t ascribe to that.
Collectivists seek to give priority to group rights over individual rights, and while I see where you’re coming from, I don’t think that the body of Christ seeking to hold it’s members accountable to sanctification falls under that category. God calls us, in scripture, to live Christlike, through the work of the holy spirit, to the glory of the father. People are designed to desire community, but more than that, people are fallen and incapable of a relationship with the father on their own. Christ’s death on the cross took care of our greatest need, freed us from sin and allowed us to seek Christ, but that’s not where it ends.
Romans 6:1-12 is a call to live Holy, and we can’t do that without the accountability of Godly men. Now if you have some scriptural basis for any of the rhetoric you’ve posted, by all means share it with me. I’m not so arrogant as to think I have it all figured out, so if you can offer any insight, logical arguments to anything I’ve said, or anything apart from arrogant pointless sarcastic barbs, then by all means let’s talk. If I’m wrong then tell me why. I’m listening.
sigh… Ok… wasn’t looking for the first sentance in a Wiki page… I see how it is. That is fine… I’ll handle it.
Don’t bother. It’s obvious neither one of us is going to convince the other of anything. You haven’t even been able to muster up the energy to even tell me what you’re trying to say, or even correct your spelling. So I’ll just bow out here. I have church in a few hours and I’d rather not have this pointless conversation in mind when I’m trying to worship God. Thanks for the stimulating conversation and for having so little respect for my viewpoints as to not even address them. Don’t bother replying, I’m officially unsubscribing from this particular waste of time.
Mike… dude… come on. Accusing me of not have the energy to actually speak my mind is observably false. Spiritualtyranny.com contains some 300,000 of my own words. I’ve demonstrated tireless energy in that end…
Sigh…
Do they not teach patience at that church u go to?
How come it hasn’t occurred to you that I was considering my words as appose to just sniping? (In fact I was about 1800 words into a response that was going to be a post with you making a guest appearance. But I will probably scrub that now)
Besides, I know your criticism sounds new to you… but they are not to me. I’ve had plenty of drive by bloggers take me to task over the exact same issues… I respond to them, in good faith at the time, but they are long gone. Didn’t really expect you to hang around and with the last comment I was apparently correct to just wait you out.
But even more to my perspective… I have spent a heavy amount of energy addressing the core of your charges in many other posts, and subsequent comments. So, I am not to terribly motivate to rehash what I’ve already said.
Whatever… I’m not offended. It’s ok… you have a life to live. Everybody does: go do what you have to do… Your comments will stand. People can accept, reject, or pick up where you left off.
Peace out!
Mike,
If you’re lurking and I suspect you are….
I clicked your name expecting to find a blog or something that I could read to get a sense of who you are and I got a Grace Church.
Sorry but that’s sort of odd.
Also, we have been discussing things like child molestation. That *Warrents* a vigorous response.
If you can sip your tea politely while becoming aware of such atrocities, Is that a virtue?
So, let me know if I’m comprehending this because, after all, I’m just a slow girl; you get your boxers in a wad because your theological superheros are dissed but you expect the rest of us to stay calm when we learn of children being abused while your superheros twiddle their collective thumbs.
Hi John,
I’m one of your sharp readers (and obviously very smug and lacking humility) but I’m not going to explain why you find Mike’s comment so hilarious. Mike might still be reading your blog and I don’t want him to get it. I think it’s killing him that you find his comment hilarious (or maybe that he can’t figure out why you find it so hilarious) and I’m hoping none of your sharp readers out there will have the “humility, grace, and charity” to explain it to him. Yeah, I’m mean too. So that makes me mean, smug, lacking humility and grace…kind of like you, I guess. Maybe that’s why I’m following your blog. LOL
Okay, I’m digressing. I’m writing because I want to point out something really petty…but very telling, I think. (wink, wink)
The following sentences are taken from Mike’s comments.
“…I have no doubt that in it’s thirty plus year history, mistakes have been made, situations have been mishandled, and yes, sins have been committed.”
“What concerns me is the hostility, vitriol, smugness, lack of charity and lack of humility in this blog post and it’s subsequent comments.”
“This ostensible lack of Grace, true forgiveness or understanding of *everyone’s* need for a savior has unfortunately been a defining characteristic of nearly all voices condemning SGM and it’s leaders and I don’t think it serves your cause in any way shape or form.”
“…and while I see where you’re coming from, I don’t think that the body of Christ seeking to hold it’s members accountable to sanctification falls under that category.”
Four instances. A typo? Don’t think so…
And he had the balls to point out that you didn’t even take the time to check your spelling when he himself didn’t take the time to learn the difference between it’s and its?! Funny guy, huh? He probably wants to be a stand-up comic someday. LOL
Ah… Pedro… I do so love irony. Unfortunately a rather troublesome learning disability prevents me from seeing this particular paradox. I know better than to type in a blank box… my bad… but certainly didn’t think a typo was a catastrophic character flaw. Oh the tyranny of Orthodoxy… LOL
As for his aspirations at standup… I’m thinking maybe no… he sips his tea politely in the face of rape… how in the world would he survive the satire of a comedy club? Besides, that would require a funny bone and I think the amputate those in Christian circles.
Welcome, and thanks for the comment, the education and your profound lack of grace and humility. Maybe we will hear from you more…
John Immel´s last blog ..Sense
“While some of these complaints are merely the unwillingness of some people to submit to what I believe is biblical authority,..”
Mike, there is your real problem and a huge sin trap for you, my friend. It is from Rome. Not from scripture…which teaches that those who function within the Body are lowly servants. Jesus Christ is the authority.
But your errant interpretation works well to give preeminance to certain men. And believe me, it is everywhere these days. I fear for your souls. It never occured to you that such “Great men of God” as they are described by many, could be deadly wrong, but they are.
Lin´s last blog ..The Final Inspection
Mike, I meant to include that your comments show that you believe “biblical authority” is your interpretation of proof texts that have been taught and translated into human authority in the Body. Sort of an Apostloic succession of sorts which is very Roman.
SGM is a horrid cult that masquerades with lots of Christian make up. I would ignore you except that our own cultists, such a Mohler, have invited you in to the SBC. He tried to have “priesthood of believers” taken out of the Baptist Faith and Message back in 2000. We cannot have that when one is trying to be the authority over others in the Body. It implies that all believers are priests and that cannot be…one would lose their preeminance if that were true.
Lin´s last blog ..The Final Inspection
The entire submitting to their authority thing doesn’t hold water in my case because I was dismembered by the leadership so my rogue status is a product of their own asshattery.