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Women and Children First
This blog apostle gig is exhausting. I have to talk endlessly about Submission and Authority. I have to figure out how to justify an apostolic authority without an apostolic succession since I’m not Catholic.
And I have to protect all those people with my apostolic authority.
Oh, wait…I can’t say that. Because when it comes time to actually cover someone, where am I?
….
…..
….
You know…screw it…I think I have been too subtle. Let’s try blunt. It turns out that I can’t get my Funny Bone re-attached on this one.
Let’s try ranting, raving flamingly, in your face unapologetic. Noel told her story on www.sgmsurvivors.com about her three-year-old daughter being molested by a 15-year-old boy in a Sovereign Grace Ministries church, and the ensuing pastoral counseling ordeal that spans YEARS. The boy lies to the pastors about his actions and his evil. The pastors, in a stroke of utter insanity, play spiritual patty cake with the boy and villainize the parents. Why? What can be the logic? What can be the motive?
I can’t begin to understand the stunning lack of objectivity in the actions of seemingly every Sovereign Grace Ministries “leader” associated with the story. And since every “leader” at SGM keeps note on EVERYBODY, that would leave NOBODY out of the chain of responsibility.
I marvel at the lack of concern for justice: the stunning obfuscation between vengeance and justice. I marvel at the utter impatience with Noel and her husband Grizzly to work through the process of their own grief. I marvel at SGM “leadership” determination from the outset to minimize what this 15-year-old had done.
(What did it matter if the child was asleep while she was being fingered? What did it matter if she never knew? So if I shoot, say, Robin Boisvert in the head while he’s sleeping, that makes the assault less immoral? Can I be on staff if I don’t call John Owen a sissy? Since I did it while Robin was sleeping, I should be qualified? He never knew after all?)
Larry Tomczak, where the Hell are you, in all your Apostolic Glory? Che Ahn, where are you in all your submission and authority magnificence?
I know WHAT you are. A couple of gutless-wonder charlatans more interested in a form of righteousness and a pathetic need to justify your own existence and not a shred of action that even pretends at the power of apostolic office. I mean what EXACTLY is this Apostolic authority used for? I mean really… isn’t THIS the thing you national SPIRITUAL AMBASSADORS claim to be FOR? Defending? COVERING? PEOPLE?
You were PRINCIPAL parts of the insanity that has become Sovereign Grace Ministries. You know the inner workings. You both suffered those inner workings. How can you turn a blind eye to the methods: their power and determination to tyrannize? What are you clinging to? Some absurd super spiritual determination for reconciliation?
There is no reconciliation with Sovereign Grace Ministries…there is no reform with evil. Chamberlain already tried that. REMEMBER! There is no brotherly participation with men whose governmental philosophy makes them Elected Official, Police Force, Judge, Jury, and Spiritual Executioner–”Men” who reserve the right to doctrinally enforce ignorance or nosiness depending on how it serves their purpose. “Men” who turn their craven Care Group leaders into the Waffen-SS. (You care group leaders are no men… go ahead and cut it all off. It’s useless. No wonder you need CJ to tell you how to romance your wives and act like men.) “Men” who reserve the right to make the sin of lying superior to the CRIME of molestation!!
Larry, how does this fail to strike your very manhood? Did CJ keep your testicles in a box when you “signed” your humility letter? You were booted for lying. A 15-year-old recidivistic child molester lies repeatedly about his actions and because he can read Sin and Temptation and speak the CJ speak, he is put in Children’s ministry. Just think of what you COULD have gotten away with. Your 401K and cushy Montgomery County salary could have remained intact if you’d just been willing to say Hail John Calvin and Goose step down Muncaster Mill Rd.
Che Ahn, how can you remain silent? How can you remain uninvolved? Or are you hedging your bets by some quiet influence behind the scene? Or has it not even occurred to you that you bear responsibility?
Where does this collective unwillingness to emphatically and absolutely call Sovereign Grace Ministries a force of evil in the modern world come from? Dozens of stories have been openly shared on www.sgmsurvivors.com and www.sgmrefuge.com of the tyranny and abuse; and the email pour in from others too scared, or too detailed to publish. I marvel at the apologizing and the endless timidity that tries to pass for humble, clement spirituality: the relentless effort to not appear angry or passionate or judgmental.
Bullpucky and nonsense!
We have lost our sense of proportion. Christians will rail en masse about Todd Bentley’s personal failings and his screwy calls for angelic visitation, but we get timid, meek, and mild when stories of stunning abuse and the cover-up of criminal activity are revealed by former members of Sovereign Grace Ministries? All because CJ Mahaney has elevated himself to poster child of humble communication and a demagogue of the Mathew 18 ethic to mean he gets to reconcile with only those who have offended HIM?
Are you JOKING?
The implications here are vast. When Evil can call itself Righteousness and then parade itself with impunity and those defending TRUE Righteousness must apologize for bringing a judgment, humanity is LOST. Christianity has forfeited the right to be called Salt and Light. And PRETEND apostles are revealed for cowardly, gutless, craven, frauds.
Che Ahn, if you have a fivefold calling now you had one then, back when you were a part of PDI, then the calling did not change. The authority you claim to have NOW is the same authority you should have used to stop the madness. So, how is it you think you are absolved? What? You think because you are part of a bunch Charismatics dubbing each other Apostles that you have arrived? Is Apostle-ness expressed in word or is it in DEED?
Whatever. Your theologizing is irrelevant.
You are BOTH a couple of gutless frauds. If you can’t speak out openly, publicly, and with moral clarity, and utter, absolute, outrage at the conduct of your “Apostolic Brothers” at Sovereign Grace Ministries, you have forfeited the right to call yourself a lover of righteousness, or covering for people. (And this goes for ALL national “Apostles” that fail to do their job!)
Stay comfy in your apostolic office. Furnish it well with tithes and offerings. Be at ease in your silent cowardice. Keep covering the asses of all those other “men” who need someone to have spiritual asses covered. You and your butt buddies can guard the prophecy mic… make sure nobody speaks in tongues out of order. That is a very, very, very important apostolic responsibility. Make sure everything is decent and in order. Keep your priorities straight and your reputations pristine. People need to be able to look up to their spiritual coverings after all. Well… in your case look behind, since you are very obviously not in FRONT.
It’s okay… The work of resisting the evil pouring out of the cesspool of SGM is being done.
The women and children are carrying the fight against the misogynistic forces of evil at Sovereign Grace Ministries. Well, the women and children are carrying carnage.
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111 Responses to “Women and Children First”
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I have to say, that was refreshing. I think many of us (myself included) still are restrained somewhat by fear of some sort from saying what we really think. And yes, it seems the women are more pressed to actions than the men, but I thank God for the men that are also speaking out! As a mother, I think I can say that it isn’t safe to push us where the safety of our children is concerned. As a former SGM member, I can say that within SGM too many parents have pushed down their parental instincts and are more than willing to sacrifice their children on the SGM alter to please their favorite pastors.
They say, “believe the best”, but I say believe the truth.
Misplaced justice rules Sovereign Grace Ministries, despite calls for change
The way many of us see it is that the bad guys in this SGM church movement crisis are essentially off the hook.
What?
Silence is golden eh?
The sound is deafening…
The church people trying to make an honest go of it and press their leaders for “honest” answers, only to get smacked with new heights of arrogance and shunning practices? Figures.
Little lambs to slaughter? How do you want yours Mr. Mahaney, medium well, I presume?
Well it’s “down and out time” and somebody seems to want a piece of your proverbial donkey. Not surprising.
Actions, so have a way of coming back and kicking you in the teeth, don’t they? He He
Come on now…give us that big smile! That’a boy! Gona go real good with that number on your chest, right?
How does it feel, now that the shoe is on the other foot? Smarts a little? I’m sure it does.
You might want to start thinking about turning over cus your beginning to look “burnt” on dat side…fella!
Remember, failure is an orphan. Who are ya gona play the sin blame game on now?
How much longer are ya gone scream, “ya all have ta follow me cus I’m in charge of your souls montra? I don’t think that plays very well when you’re headed for a ditch Mister, but I could be wrong. People tend to stick with what they know, so throw another one of God’s little ones on the barbie and call your friends…
Religious institutions built on flawed models are kept alive “in the name of Christ”, when in reality they are only protecting the predatorily system they have sought to perpetuate. So go on bro, you’re not alone “in this” by any means. The guy “down there” has many friends.
Religious leaders in Sovereign Grace Ministries, many of whom bear some responsibility for the current crisis, are being embraced by others that bear the name of apostolic oversight, only to their shame.
Is your plate cold? O’ I am so sorry…
Sopwith… Perfect!!!!!
John,
Thank you for calling out these men. All the pastors or apostles that have been in the inner workings of this organization should not be silent. They are not true shepherds.
I can’t help but wonder if it is about money…is their some agreement they signed to keep their mouths shut? Did they get big severance checks, stock options?
If it is about money, Is money more important than we are? More important then God? More important then righteousness? Is it important enough to defile your conscience for? We really are stupid sheep to have ever trusted any of them that are silent – which is all of them.
There ya go, John!
Where are the Christian statesmen? Where are the Christian men?
I’m living proof that a man can allow a system to emasculate him and one day wake up and rediscover his manhood.
Have faith, oh fearful brothers. God is able restore again your strength!
Rise up and be who He created you to be.
I thought Larry T. provided some balance to Mahaney and his ouster disrupted any hope of balance in PDI(SGM)
Perhaps I was thinking too simplisticly. Larry and Che’, I am trying to think the best of you.
Are you praying about this one? Really? It’s a no brainer.
Are you staying out of someone else’s business? You are your brother’s keeper!
Are you still asleep? Take the red (or was it the blue) pill and freaking WAKE UP!!!!!!
Larry’s busy making (questionable) new friends, and Che is busy convincing people that that wasn’t really him “commissioning” Todd Bentley.
I’m kidding-Che might have handled the Bentley aftermath very well-who knows. Who cares… the guy lost all cred.
Oh… you can tell a bit about a man’s friends but you can tell a bunch more about his enemies.
and when it is more important to “commission” someone to lay hands on the sick than it is to openly fight against manifest evil ….
Gutless wonders!
lets clarify…it was more important to commission someone to kick little old ladies in the head, punch stomach cancer sufferers in the gut, and mess around with a lady who is not his wife.
Good job, men!
Ummmm…. I just “stumbled” across this article because I googled Larry T. out of curiosity. (I use to attend a PDI church many yrs ago and never really knew what happened to Larry) NOW I am wondering… why are you so mad at Larry and Che? I know I may sound naive or uneducated (unlike you and your other “posters”) but what do they have to do with your complaints against SGM? They aren’t there. They don’t make decisions for SGM. And further more what good does it do the Christian Community to be “calling each other out” all the time… it seems Larry and Che have moved on. Maybe they have forgiven SGM and don’t really need to re-hash this stuff. Come on guys! Being a Christian is about forgiveness…. build a bridge and get over it…. get it?
Meg…just my two cents (and worth that much too I suppose) but to try to address your question, membership and participation in an abusive organization is not required in order for someone to be in gross negligence (to put it mildly) of their own choosing….meaning: Larry T and Che Ahn, as well as many others are well aware of the ongoings in SGM today..Larry experienced it himself personally back in the day, and just a few months ago when interviewed for an article in the Washington Times he said he was still waiting for an apology from THEM (SGM)…Along with Larry, many of the “Reformed Big Dogs” as the blogs often call them are also aware of the abuses in SGM…yet no one is saying anything.
Imagine watching someone else being beaten to death or physically abused and saying nothing. And then imagine if you said: “hey, I wasn’t doing the beating, don’t get mad at ME!”
Now imagine reading along online to the hundreds upon hundreds of stories of spiritual abuse (some still ongoing) and doing nothing. There is no difference.
Silent bystanders, with their avoidance and refusal to address the spiritual abuse and tyranny going on are just as horrific in my estimation.
So yes, it makes me very angry, personally..to see all that has happened, and then other “leaders” that are aware of the situation throw some lemon juice in that open cut by saying and doing nothing…
I’m a nobody from nowhere..with no seminary training….no PhD after my name…no influence…not a published author..not a public speaker…and no public ministry..and why is it I’m able to recognize injustice and speak out more than these ninny men who should be far more “qualified” to do so than I? They should be ashamed. And, to top it ALL off….I’m a woman!
You said that being a Christian is about forgiveness..I’m hoping you didn’t mean that forgiveness was the hallmark of the Christian life, because certainly it is NOT…but either way, I will have to disagree with your words….
God never forgave or forgives until repentance (a change of mind) had taken place…and He never asks us to do what He isn’t willing to do first. So the ol’ ”forgive and forget” with no repentance in the mix is unbiblical. It sounds Christian, but it isn’t. It’s foolish. (and keep in mind, according to Larry T himself, he and SGM are still not even reconciled after all these years..why? Two words: No repentance.
Until repentance comes..you hammer away with truth…in love…but never compromising truth. SGM bears no fruit in keeping with repentance, they never have. And that is a problem. Unforgiveness on the part of others, not so much. Unrepentance on their part, yeah..big time.
I am not a part of SGM but have benefited greatly from their ministry. Coming from a charismatic background I found their emphasis on manhood and reformed teachings and such refreshing due to what is going on in our society. Their conferences have been uplifting to me as well. I have heard CJ at confernces outside of SGM and he has always delivered a word that was Biblical and pertinent to the moment. Organizations will always have their flaws, but I see SGM as trying to be Biblical and true to doctrine and Spirit in a culture that is out of control. I came out of churches that were influenced by the shepherding movement and know what a cult looks like. I believe these guys mean well, but will make mistakes and will have plenty of nay-sayers. Offenses will come and we learn more about ourselves than our offenders when enduring such offenses. Forgiveness is Christ-like and we wrestle not against flesh and blood. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the tearing down of strongholds. God bless Larry T. and CJ and let God’s kingdom be formed in us through peace, love and reconciliation. Blogs that publish bitterness serve only to reinforce Satan’s kingdom of darkness.Let us arm ourselves with truth and light and move forward with a spirit of meekness and healing. This is the spirit of our Lord and Christ.
Scott … welcome and thanks for your comments. That notwithstanding… that is a strange sense of proportion you are offering there. Strange indeed.
Anyway… if you are inclined, keep reading. I address many of the issues you raised in other posts.
in a bit,
John
Scot, Welcome aboard!! I have to respectlfully disagree with you assesment. Yu say you are not a part of SGM and that you have been blessed by CJ’s teaching et al. that is fine. No one has ever said that all of the teaching is unbiblical. It is the daily practice of doctrinal issues for those who participate fully in SGM that is being called into question. It is interesting that some people think Christians shouldn’t disagree with other Christians about issues that should be kept “in the family”, because they think it dishonors the Lord. Well, if that is the case Christians have been dishonoring the Lord from the beginning of the church ‘cuase disagreements arose within weeks certainly within a few years and it has been ongoing ever since, thus all the various denominations and cults that have arisen in the Last 2k years or so. Anyway, i was a part of SGM for twenty five years and know first hand the oppressive and controlling mindset and culture that the doctrines and practice (with emphasis on practice) create.
Appreciate your comments and hope your experience from the outside remain positve. This is a place for those who want to help one another recover from the aforementioned culture and examine the doctrines and teachings that put us in that place. I pray that you read further into the articles here and the other related blogs before telling us we are wrong. i know that i turned a blind eye for some time and reached a place where to support what was happenig was to be in violation of what I believe is clear Biblical truth as opposed to the SGM lens [reformed theology (which lends itself to these kind of abuses)applied horribly] of Biblical interpretation. Enough rambling for one morning!!!
that wasn’t rambling… that was an effective assessment.
John I- thanks. I do try to make an effort to be clear in my communication of thoughts and ideas. It is nice that others can recognize your effort. I am not objective about my abilities!!!
Scot, you wrote: Blogs that publish bitterness serve only to reinforce Satan’s kingdom of darkness.
hmm..
And blogs that publish truth have a way of bringing offense to those IN darkness.
JohnG..wow. you’re in the deep end now, my friend. no wading pool of ideas for you, but I didn’t expect anything less to be honest, given your previous observations. you have an exceptional mind and heart.
hahahahaha. O man.
Hi Lawrence, and welcome to the Arena!
Hey all, I have finally gotten a chance to visit this blog again, and wow, what I have missed!
John, I’ve been wondering. Do you think the abuses done to Noel’s daughter were treated so insignificantly because women and children are generally treated that way in the sgm machine? I remember the church that I was part of as a whole treated women like 2nd class citizens of the Kingdom, ( fit only for baby making and brownie making and meal making, with a chance at the prophecy mic on Sunday mornings, or maybe participation on a worship team). Children were forced into obedience no matter their feelings or thoughts on the matter (such as spanking a shy child because she would not greet someone properly, or forbidding an 18year old from seeing a girl he liked). If we were more valued as equals among the men, would leadership have treated Noel and her family differently?
In the world, men who abuse their women were at one point given a nod and a wink. Now, there are laws to protect women and children. Why is the church above these laws? Do we need to face the elephant in the room? Finally speak of it? That the church has devalued half of its population? Now that would be a conversation I’d want to be in on! While the freedom of women in our country has only grown, the church still keeps them in denim jumpers or maternity clothes. When will Christians realize that half its strength is in bondage to mens’ traditions?
Sorry if I’m spewing. I did a little of that over at the Refgue. Guess I’m doing a bit of squaking today. This is an issue near to my heart.
Squawk all you want, Canary! It’s the truth!
Canary…
The truly bizarre part of the Noel situation is I would bet money that SGM believes they are pure defenders of womanhood. Now granted they have manufactured a dictated good called “Biblical Womanhood” and held it up as an ideal standard to be emulated, but they still think themselves chivalrous, champions for pure feminine virtue.
This whole fabrication sounds so noble, so pure and appeals to our romantic souls. We insert ancient images of damsels in distress and knights in shining armor and loosely apply some Bible metaphors to arrive at the modern day denim skirted brownie Queen.
The dirty little secret is, at the core, chivalry is nothing more than benevolent chauvinism: “I love you, sweetheart, and I will open doors for you and slay the dragons to prevent you from worrying, but I do it because I think you are inferior. So please dress dowdy so my masculine ego is not threatened by other men ‘lusting’ after your cute, adorable backside.”
So I suspect that the SGM leader’s reaction to the question would be a combination of perplexed and insulted at the assertion they do not value women. Indeed, I suspect they rationalized keeping the matter quiet was a defense of a little girl. While the treatment of Noel’s daughter is particularly hideous, that offense was committed by the criminal actions of a young man.
The catastrophic judgment and practice on SGM’s part was their utter lack of proportion. This is the problem with Universal Guilt: it eradicates the ability quantify evil action and act proportional to injustice. Over time, they ended up treating Noel and Grizzly with greater disdain than the 15-year-old recidivistic child molester. It has been a while since I read through the account but if memory serves, each leadership reaction came as a direct response to what they assumed was a challenge to their pastoral authority and that authority is effectively governance and say it with me now … Government is always FORCE. (And they set out to wield that force against Noel and Grizzly.)
How Leaders use doctrines is a dead giveaway to their tyrannical ends. Preachers really use the “Paul’s” misogynistic doctrines to divide and conquer. Incompetent Masses is one of the first three strands essential to spin out the web of tyranny. By claiming women intellectually incompetent, they have achieved two strategic ends: removed half of the dissenting populace from the field and divided masculine solidarity with his wife. A man with moral clarity is a fierce intellectual foe; a man with moral clarity that has a woman by his side unified in that moral clarity…
Hahahaha… Yeah… they don’t make castles that strong.
As for the treatment of women in the church … do we need to visit that conversation in America? Well, the question that really needs to be visited is Bible interpretive methodology. Most people don’t know of the Hellenism embedded in the last 2000 years of church doctrine. They do not understand that Plato has shaped our Bible understanding more than Jesus and the Covenants of Promise. When they finally do… I suspect there will be some tyrants that will finally lose their jobs.
modern day denim skirted brownie Queen
I love that one!
I have read the book, “What Paul Really Said About Women”. Every man and woman should read this who want the truth about the hellinization of Christianity (basically, the word means Greek-a-fide). If women knew the historical picture, you are right – there would be no castle strong enough to keep these ancient and irrelevant-for-today rules over women in place. Believing men united as equals with believing women would be a force to reckon with. The WHOLE church finally free and active through the Holy Spirit. I’d love to see it!
Yes, I imagine sgm men would be aghast at my words about how they really treat the women and children. I heard the words over and over. Sure, men loved their wives and kids. I don’t question that. It is as you say. To cherish is one thing. To have your opinions and gifts ignored because of your gender, well, that is what was happening in truth. I swear, sometimes I thought my pastor really wanted to pat me on the head and tell me to go play with the other little girls. Oh brother.
It took time to recognize this. Women are willing participants in their own bondage. We believed the stuff we were told, believed we were pleasing to God by pleasing our leaders. Some women found it impossible to “model” the gentle, quiet spirit that was so misinterpreted among the male population. There was no outlet for our gifts or our ideas, unless they went through our husbands. It took me years to realize that the Lord does not see me like that.
I hope you tackle this subject in the future, John. Half the Church is enslaved, and don’t even realize it.
Canary, you beat me to it: I loved “denim skirted brownie Queen” as well!
although I was more of a long cotton skirted casserole Princess (being single) but I digress…anyway..I’m with you sister! And John, your assessment is dead-on accurate. The sad thing is they are able, with the sweep of the tyrannical wand filled with Universal Guilt pixie dust, wipe away half the church in one sweep by oppressing women, AND be able to call it godly! Sickening.
Canary, I think this is why more women post on such blogs in general. They have suffered some horrific things in all of this spiritual tyranny, not just in SGM of course. There are women about 2 hours from me at Vision Forum headquarters who are buying into the patriarchy bit by the crap-full. Churning out videos about biblical womanhood, and with women likw Nancy Leigh DeMoss and so many otehrs writing books on the topic, Christian women in every denomination can’t escape it.
By the way, Vision Forum as you probably know because you homeschool, has a HUGE follwing amongst homeschooling families. And they proliferate some of the most horrific patriarchy and tyranny against women and children available – all conveniently packaged for the homeschool market. And they have blogs too, of women who came out from under it. Also, there is a blog for women who were part of the “full quiver movement”, cleverly called “Quivering No More” haha
As John always says, this isn’t just about SGM, it is far from it. The tyrannical beliefs and actions are all rooted in the same things he talks about here. Once you identify them and become familiar with the elements, is it absolutely easy to spot tyranny in all forms on all levels when it occurs. And unfortunately, it is ALL around us, not just in the religious arena, but the political, social, cultural,..it’s a cancer. And it must be killed.
Truly, truly said, Juli.
I know nothing of Vision Forum. I’ve home schooled so long that I use my own stuff. Sounds infamous, though. I tend to avoid local home school groups because of how strong the religious rule seems to be in them. And the gossip? Holy smokes. Also, the power mongering was terrible. Now, I’m sure there are some wonderful home school groups out there. I wish I could find one.
Like I said, women are willing participants in their own enslavement. And the problem IS everywhere, not just sgm. See, I love my family. I’d give my life for each member. I respect my husband (he’s earned it!). I tend towards being gentle and quiet, unless someone kicks an already wounded person, then I’m Zena warrior. I have no ambition to lead anyone, to control anyone, to have my name in lights, etc. I live a pretty quiet life here in the mountains with my husband. And yet, when it comes to the topic of womens’ freedoms in the church being stolen from them, I get…well, passionate. I wanna shout, “My sister saints, don’t you see what is being done to you?” I have discovered that I can walk in my role as wife and mother and STILL WALK IN THE FREEDOM THAT IS FOR ME IN CHRIST! They don’t conflict with each other. In fact, I am a better wife/mother because I recognize who I am in the Lord.
Enslaved sainted ladies who are reading this, I URGE you to read the book I mentioned, “What Paul Really Said About Women”. The author (a man, by the way), accuses the centuries old church of slandering Paul. After you finish the book, you will understand why he says that. Your eyes will be opened to how much the Greeks philosophers influenced what traditions we still follow today. You will be aghast at some of the reasons. Absolutely astounded and dismayed.
Sorry John, I’ll get off my soapbox. I just get so danged riled up when this issue arises.
Canary, I am going to get that book. I’ve thought (or known I should say) for some time that the church has historically used Paul and distorted his suggestions and teachings to THEIR own end. Paul was the trailblazer for equality actually, a man WAY ahead and in juxtaposition to his own patriarchy-saturated culture. He advocated equality consistently. The gospel clearly advocates equality as well, -how could we suggest it would be anything otherwise? Throughout Scripture God is advocating freedom, individual freedom to be precise. And that this can be attained within families, marriages, and society is clear. But He also warns against those things that will steal our freedom from us.
John, you’ve touched on this in bits and pieces in your posts…what is the thread you perosnally see and specifically see running through Scripture, manifesting in the gospel, that says once and for all that man is to be free – especially from other men?
Canary..being the cheap person I am, I did a search for that book at the public library to see if I could just check it out – and a book called “Sexual Revolution” came up automatically in the search…haha
So I had to break down and buy it – darn! (insert sarcasm here) Since I was already buying some homeschool stuff I figured I should throw in a book for ME. Yippee! So I can’t wait to get it in the mail and start reading it…that will make, um..7 books I am reading interchangebly right now..*sigh*
by the way, did I tell you I met a guy on a plane recently that was reading Glenn Beck’s book about Common Sense? It was a tiny little paperback, and when I saw him reading it – woah nelly did it spark some interesting conversation for the next few hours. Gotta love captive audiences! haha
Canary, wanted to share this with you, Ellie, and Gracie in particular because I think of you three when I think of powerful women’s voices
“In the Code of new laws…I desire you to remember the ladies..if particular care and attention are not paid to the ladies we are determined to foment a rebellion and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation” – Abigail Adams, in a letter to her husband, John Adams.
Abigail Adams is one of my heroines…she had a prophetic voice it seems…and what she said in the context of the political environment during the founding of htis nation applies to the religious one today. If women continue to be oppressed and not given a voice, they will rise up and fight for their freedom. And we are beginning to see the first bubblings of “rebellion” that leads to liberty in the many brave women who post on the blogs. I admire them, and I applaud them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVloUiTwdO8
Found this whilst blog link clicking today,
I cried.
This guy gets it.
Just TRY to watch this and not have it touch something deep down inside you.
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Jim,
Sup brah. I know this has nothing to do with the actual post, it was just a throwaway comment you made, so feel free to ignore me if you’re so inclined. But I was fascinated by your comment about Plato, partly because I find it ridiculous (but am open to being convinced otherwise) and partly because I’m a college student who studies philosophy in general. I’d love to know how you come to that conclusion.
Also, you must be very clever at hiding your irony, because I actually can’t tell if you’re actually claiming that Paul was misogynistic, or if some people simply use his doctrines for misogynistic purposes.
And I actually can’t believe I said actually twice in one sentence.
Hey Lawrence… you on the right site? my name is john? are you looking for Jim from survivors?
and if you are on the right site… not sure which comment about Plato and Paul you are talking about.
oh… I see which comments you are talking about. uh…. let’s see…
Since you have studied Philosophy, then you know what Plato’s metaphysical and epistemological assumptions were about man and the human condition. And you know that Augustine applied those assumptions to Christian interpretation. Hellenism (its worldview) dominated Christianity from about the middle of the second century onward. Many of our contemporary doctrines stem from that worldview.
I contend that Plato/Augustine worldview is not the worldview that God sought to instill in his people. As a result, many of the historic arguments and debates and subsequent conclusions are wrong. But most modern Christians don’t know they are wrong because they don’t realize the historic forces that shaped the specific interpretive methodology.
And yes… you are right… my irony is a bit subtle sometimes… The question is whose misogyny is represented in those Pauline passages.
and thanks for the question … I don’t mind clarifying.
Haha yeah that’s what I get for posting when I’m tired. I have no idea why I said Jim, I don’t even know any Jim’s
.
I agree with what you’re saying to a point. Clearly Augustine has influenced western thought in general, and Christianity and particular. And clearly Augustine borrowed from Plato’s thoughts and reasoning, especially concerning the nature of man. But that basically only applies to western thought (and thus only the western church, no?.) How then do the places with the greatest current growth in Christianity (Africa, Asia, Latin America) come to the same fundamental conclusions about the Bible as we (the western church) do? Which were the same fundamental conclusions that the Hellenists came to? Which, I would contend (and I would assume you would disagree with), were the same fundamental conclusions that the early Jewish/middle eastern Christians came to?
Lawrence,
OK… that is a pretty good response: a fair question. I don’t want to misstate your comment but let me see if I can sum up. Because we have church growth in a location that is not considered “west” and these people are adopting the same ideology of the western church, there must be a common source for the assumption.
Good so far?
You didn’t say this but it is implied I think: since they are arriving at the same conclusions, their source is Bible. Ergo, asserting that Plato is a driving force of Christian theology is wrong at best and a ridiculous overstatement at worst.
A couple of things. First, this assumes that all “church” growth springs from pure isolation and remains ideologically homogeneous.
This would only be true of a man with no cultural understanding of western culture was marooned on Mars with nothing but a Bible. This person’s conclusions would be worthy of study because theoretically, the sum of his understanding would derive from one academic source. But we would have to further decide what cannon he is reading. The Catholic Cannon? The Protestant Cannon? And then we would have to take into account the interpretations that were rendered in translation that have their source in Augustinian presumption (of which there are many).
And then we would have to take into account which specific translation he has been given. Is it a translation from antiquity? Or one of the modern translations? These translations have already done some ready-made exegetics that lead to some specific hermeneutics.
Which of course leads nicely to the issue of translation. Any time we cross language lines, we also cross cultural lines. As a result, Cannon must be adjusted to best capture the sense of the writer’s intent and successfully address modern cultural understanding. In the world of translation, the spectrum for achieving this goal looks like this:
Free — Dynamic equivalent — Literal
The constant tension of translation is how literal do we make the text and yet make it relevant to the hearer. The reality is no one is ever just handed a Bible. They are always handed two things: the Bible and the tradition of how to read that Bible. And that tradition starts with the interpretive methods applied to translation.
Most modern translations are renderings of Greek and the few that are not are renderings of Latin. Uhh… by definition, these languages are by default Hellenistic. Language and culture are almost inextricably intertwined. I don’t care if the final language is Swahili, the source of the translation held Hellenistic assumptions. And even if the language is not at fault, the translators are inclined to default to the historic “orthodox” interpretations. Anyone claiming orthodoxy is without fail appealing to western theology.
Secondly, this presumes that all “church” growth springs from the same doctrinal pedigree. All things church are not necessarily all things Bible. Denominations are largely responsible for missions work and, with very few exceptions, denominations are the product of the Reformation. So their intellectual heritage is effectively western.
I am not up to speed on African revival, but I suspect a casual evaluation would show that the vast percentage of outreach is being done by decidedly western thinking organizations. (or even worse… decidedly Marxist/Collectivist western thinking… but I digress)
If I thought about it for a while, I could come up with a whole list of caveats to producing a truly isolated and subsequently homogeneous understanding of biblical texts. I can tell you are a thinker… I suspect you can easily think of a few yourself.
And the fact that you have identified these same ideological assumptions springing up in non-western locations, I think, goes to my overarching point. These concepts are so deeply embedded in our Christian understanding that they end up finding voice in cultures effectively alien to the West. This stands as a true curiosity because the Bible is written by and to a Semitic people with a very Middle Eastern worldview. And the Hebraic worldview stuck out mightily in contrast to its neighbors. Their worldview was in stark contrast to the rest of the world … and it does not share many similarities to Plato’s worldview.
…sorry for interupting the Plato convo, guys, but
Juli
if you read this, can you call me? I left a message on your cell.
Thanks.
it’s interesting that we typically doubt man’s ability to arrive at truth independent from anyone else…including the “church”..in whatever form or geographic location that may be.
and it’s also interesting that when we see some sort of collective mindset being manifested, we tend to assume that this hive-mind is therefore “truth”.
Personally, nothing is more beautiful and powerful to me than seeing truth bear itself out in a world full of people individually created in the image of God…and the many shapes, paths and forms this takes is simply breathtaking. And not once does this diminish or compromise the nature of truth itself, it only illustrates its power to maintain and flourish in fact in such circumstances.
Yeah… if truth is defined by multiplied numbers believing the same thing, then don’t we have to become Buddhist or something?
What spiritual pedigree do they have over there? A couple billion people can’t be wrong, can they?
Who’s Jim from survivors?
that would be a typo… I think the website is refuge. I’d have to check though.
Well-50 million Elvis fans can’t be wrong…can they…I mean, maybe the Las Vegas years were as good as the Sun record sessions.
Anyway-sorry for the sidetrack-John-I’m fascinated by your mention of Hellenistic influences on Christian theology. It’s something I’ve stumbled across in my readings of the early church. I’d go so far to say when you hear a Christian preacher go over the “Classical Attributes of God” they are basically using the Bible to try and prove Greek philosophical assumptions about God.
Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
Musicman,
I think this a perfect example of the kind of thing I’m referring to.
I don’t want to overstate my case. Hellenistic does not mean without truth. And Hebraic does not mean specifically truthful. Indeed, I submit that Socrates offered the intellectual predicates of reason that Yahweh had instilled in his people. Truth goes abroad in the earth. And like all ideas, and thinkers of those ideas, the Greeks took foundational concepts and pressed them to the next logical assumption.
But the modern theological failing has it seeds in adopting the predicate assumptions of Hellenistic thinkers and purporting those assumptions as authoritative merely because they were advocated by church authorities.
The classical attributes of God is a very good example. Most people will go to the argumentative stake over the philosophical assumptions that the Christian God must be omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence to truly BE God and never once understand these are Greek intellectual issues. While at the same time be wholly ignorant of the names of Yahweh openly extolled through out canon: e.g. Elohay Kedem, Elohay Mishpat, Elohay Selichot, Elohay Marom. And even worse…when the translations of those names are exegete, these same Greek zealots will pooh-pooh the nature of God’s own self-revelation as if a general trait of god-ness is more important than Yahweh specifically revealing himself.
I’ve been reading Thomas Cahill’s book about why the Greeks Matter..Sailing the Wine Red Sea. It’s insightful and makes me wonder why I never hear this stuff before….Hellenism has SATURATED the modern “church” and mindset and people don’t have a clue why they believe what they do and why they do…and it really rips open the whole idea of orthodoxy, canon, and everything else….if one dares enough to enlighten themselves and maybe walk away with a bit more truth than they had before.
To whoever writes these articles… I am a member of Larry Tomczak’s family and we left a long time ago from SGM. We were the pioneers of leaving SGM. Please post something that is correct. No offense but it makes me sad that you have to post things that are not any longer true. I would also like you respect everyone even if they are wrong. C.J. did hurt our family very badly but we have forgiven him and gone on with our lives! SGM yes indeed is not a good place for everyone but yet there is much healing that has come about when it comes to all the people who have left. I happen to be a poster for SGM survivors and we have been in contact with the heads of the group. They are great people. You post the following: Larry Tomczak, where the Hell are you, in all your Apostolic Glory? Che Ahn, where are you in all your submission and authority magnificence?
To this I have to say Che and Larry haven’t been connected with SGM in over 10 years. Please be respectful even to people who don’t agree with you. Using the word for male anatomy is not a good turn of phrase. All I ask is respect is due everyone. No, I do not like C.J. but I respect him as a man!
One more thought… you post that Larry turned a blind eye… in fact I saw him work tirelessly to change SGM’s abusive power but was unsuccessful. He cried and wept bitter tears over this whole debacle. He has counseled others that have left as well. If you are interested in hearing about this please feel free to post something here and I would be willing to get in touch with you to discuss it. Also please go on Larry’s facebook page to get in contact with him. We never left those who needed healing from SGM. In fact many have contacted us so please do not think that Larry or Che just up and left. They have thriving churches who have helped heal these wounds. You are not alone in your anger but please I would request that you do it respectfully! Again, I do not like the leaders in SGM but I respect them as men who are albeit a bit confused!
Oh… Anonymous… bless your heart.
Sigh…
I do appreciate your weighing in here. I put this out in public in blog form which means what I say is fair game for whatever commentary. While I do appreciate your emotional solidarity with family and your appeal in their behalf, I can’t let your comments stand unaddressed. Since you have identified yourself as a member of the family, you are then reflective of the family mindset and a glaring example of the core of this specific problem.
I was originally working on another article, but I am going to set that one aside to craft an answer to you and to whomever else is reading.
Give me a bit, and I will get back to you.
As promised I responded here:
http://spiritualtyranny.com/family-member-tomczak-responds/
Wow..I don’t know where to start…how about the end? I wrote a 30 pp paper on Augustine’s misguided (I did love Confessions though!) notions about living here on earth as Christians as having stemmed from his roots in Gnostic Dualism (he was part of a group called the Manichaeans). It was the classic flesh is evil, spirit is good dualism. It was not well received by my grad school collegues – all men, most with seminary degrees. I was a 24 year old female. I wrote how it shaped the Catholic churche’s view of marriage – and I expressed my dismay at the distortion of the true Gospel…I can see its echoes here in this discussion of women…cherished but not deemed worthy to be listened to – too “susceptible to sin” to be encouraged to use their gifts.
I am a homeschooling mom of 9 – desperately want more – but as I got my Master’s degree back in 1988 you can guess how old I am!
I have like ZERO time to enter into this discussion – chicken is rotting in my fridge and my kids are scootering through the house as I write this – But I was finally driven to enter into this forum because of the death of 7 year old Lydia Schatz.I will lay our the trail of breadcrumbs for you: The Pearl’s style of discipline/authoritarian abuse in the Church/Shepherding/PDI/Sovereign Grace (I was in a PDI church from ’85-’88/Reformed Theology/ultra Calvinism.
I heard a prophecy once that I think actually WAS from the Holy Spirit, and it went like this…”Stop trying to be good, and be yoked to Me”. All of the above are connected in some way to a belief that we can measure up,by our good doctrine, right behavior, perfect kids, and joyful submission to authority – no matter how tyrannical. The truth is – there is only One who is good. There is no city on a hill – only a coming Kingdom.
Carlotta… Thanks for your comment.
I was going to weigh in on your observations on Augustine and ask you to expand your Gnostic and Manichean comments. I suspect that most people don’t know why that is important and specifically noteworthy to the underpinnings of tyranny discussed on this blog. Hearing the whys and wherefores from an expert would/could be very helpful. But, since you are in the process of raising your own football team, I’ll give you a pass on ongoing commentary.
>Snicker<
However, one thing I would like you to say more about is your trail of breadcrumbs. The name Lydia Schatz does not ring a bell… and by implication, her death is directly related to SGM doctrine. That is a pretty …. intense(??) trail. I am not at all familiar with the elements of this issue. When did that death occur? What about that death compels you to comment here?
As many breadcrumbs as you can drop between scooter sessions and quarterback training would be appreciated.
And… to all commenters… for whatever reason, my little comment box is not recognizing single spaces between paragraphs. Put an extra space to get separation. In the meantime, I will work on getting this silly widget to work right.
John, thanks for your patience with my esoteric comments….could be I have a little more of the the gnostic in me than I would like to admit!
I can’t hear or read Augustine’s name in print without going into a diatribe about my rejected manifesto from a graduate history seminar from 1987…who knew such Unibomber-like angst lurked in the suburbs? One commenter above mentioned the Hellenization of Christian thought, and I thought I would put my two cents in about how his very touching passion for God sadly was skewed by his years of being steeped in Gnostic dualism. This type of flesh is evil/spirit is good thinking lead to the wearing of hairshirts and self-flagellation for some – Simon Stylites (sp?) sat on a 30 ft. pole for thirty years to get to God, and the rest became celibate monks, priests, and nuns. Augustine’s writings on “concupiscience” or sexual immorality were foundational to the Catholic Church’s views on celibacy and holiness. I truly love Augustine’s passion for God, but can’t we see Platonism/dualism written all over this? The person above wrote that this Hellenistic thinking influences today’s church’s thinking about the role and value of women because of skewed interpretation of Paul’s writings.
If you google Lydia Schatz’s name you will read the whole tragic story – a 7 year old Liberian girl being raised in America along with her two biological siblings by homeschooling adoptive parents with six other children. They adhere strictly to the Michael and Debi Pearl school of discipline (please google if you are unfamiliar) and very sadly, beat her with a 1/4 inch plastic plumbing line (as proscribed by the Pearls) until she went into cardiac arrest and died. Her 11 year old sister was found in the house in with Kidney failure from a recent beating. According to the sources, Lydia’s beating occurred because she kept mispronouncing a word in her reading lesson. The plumbing line was on the bed next to the book.
This is spiritual tyranny. This is legalism in a particularly vile form. ” If I don’t raise perfect obedient children who would never quiver an eyelid in dissent against my parental authority, then I am disobeying God” Someone (see Pearl teachings) has put parents under the Law , and someone else has adhered to it to the point of manslaughter. The person who informed me of this tragedy is currently in a SGM church. She is not very happy with some of the thinking there. She encouraged me to look up the SGM survivors or SGMrefuge website, especially since I was in a PDI church in the 80s. That lead me to you. In between Augustine and SGM there also some breadcrumbs leading me through Reformed theology in its most (think Vision Forum and patriarchal courtship models) tyrannical form. This attempt (think Puritans) to build a city on a hill (with perfect kids and wives you never have to listen to!) is counter the biblical truth of a coming kingdom. Reconstructionist thought says that we can perfect all the institutions of this world and Jesus will come back to put the finishing touches on our work. That would pretty much negate the books of Daniel and Revelation.
Jesus hated the pharisees’ control of the people…I believe He still does or you wouldn’t have this website.
Am I making more sense, John? I would be happy to ramble on in more detail if it is helpful.
Thanks for your comments Carlotta. I laugh when I think of all the efforts to maker a pseudo-science out of Christianity and then pass it off as the way it was meant to be.
In grad school, I was lucky enough to have a prof who taught me to think. He used to say, “who needs to think for himself, when all you need to do is know. ” In other words, people buy into a received body of ideas that tears away at your dignity. He also taught me that ‘the great trick of modernity is to make culture look natural.’ Assumed. Think about it. I’m still unpacking that one.
In different words, John is saying similar things. Ive been involved in Christian reconstruction movement. Dominion theology. I’ve witnessed rogue, judgemental homeschool cliques. My wife could tell you stories… I observed a few things along the way. We have notions about truth… Heres one for you to chew on: Truth, as a historical idea, operates in a system of power, especially in the context of community. My major was history, but the real story was when I studied the backstory, eg., how stories (histories) come to be. Why they come to be. I challenge an approach toward truth that says “if you can get all the sources, ll the scriptures, all the … you can know the past, or get to the bottom of it”
For myself, I replace an unending quest for truth with Faith. Grace. It has revolutionized my thinking. You have to begin with faith. The quest for certainty is another red herring. It gets in the way of approaching others honestly, dignified, Christian-like. Whatever the social setting, watch how these two words operate. They tend to define people in ways that limit how they act or express themselves. They espouse a teleology, a determined approach, whether its “don’t let your kids watch smurf dolls’ to carlotts observation that we can sort it all out by exercising Dominion. its a rational, logical and ordered trajectory of progress.. .. We have made a science out of being Christian. And we’ve dropped the ball. Whaddya think John..
Joe,
I agree with much that you have said here – you do understand however that I reject Reconstructionism and Dominion Theology? I like what you said about certainty – we don’t have to have all the answers – only one. We can fully put our trust in a mysterious but loving God, whose thoughts are higher than our thoughts
A ‘Soap’ Box Moment…
HowDee Ya’All,
Carlotta,
It certainly does brings ‘joy’, to ma heart, and ‘tears’ to ma eyes to hear such words:
“We can fully put our trust in a mysterious but loving God, whose thoughts are higher than our thoughts.”
Amen!
Much, of what is pass’in as (‘monkey-see-monkey-do religion’) religion, in the SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministries) system, would simply pail, in comparison, if its members would simply trust God Almighty, trust His dear sweet Son, Jesus, read & be do’in the words in His book,
What?
eh …and do’in their own thinking, for cry’in out loud!
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
In a little,
Sopy
Roots… & A Stroll Down Memory Lane?
HowDee, Ya’All,
Thought this worth a re-tell’in:
“…When Larry Tomczak led the movement, PDI was aligned with restoration and charismatic movements such as Bryn Jones in England, Bob Weiner and the Vineyard. When Larry left and Brent Detwiler took over as primary theologian, there was a palpable change to traditional reformed theology. One can argue the merits of which view is correct, but there needed to at least be integrity and honesty that the movement had changed direction.”
–Ellie @ http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/12/05/out-of-the-frying-pan-and-into-the-fire-or-happy-days-are-here-again/#comment-14504
Integrity? Waz dat?
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
In a little,
Sopy
SGM Approval Rating Downgraded to Zero
HowDee, Ya’All,
Somes times past, someone asked this silly azz question:
But, overall, is the entire… SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministries) church system drowning in a squalor of legalism, control, manipulation, abuse, and false shallow relationships?
Goodie…
What?
Dat sounds like da church fer me! >snicker<
What?!?
He he he
Yous gots to be kidding, right?
BruHahahahahahahahaha!
In a little,
Sopy
Hahah… if more people had that diatribe, how would the face of Christianity would change?? I know that discussions of Gnosticism and all the 3rd and 4th century rest comes off like a bad case of Inside Baseball to a bunch of Football tailgaters. But those details bear directly on what we in the modern age think Christianity is all about. Augustine is largely responsible for our, dare I say, erroneous, understandings of sexuality. While most people have never read concupiscence, they assume the church has always believed what is really little more than Augustine’s profound psychosis.
The ripples… or maybe better said, the shock waves, of mixing Platonism into Christianity has horribly disfigured its presentation and even when God begins to reform our understanding, the Church gets sucked down the path of that dualistic mindset under the compulsion of tyranny.
As for Lydia Schatz, I am not familiar enough with Pearl to comment effectively. I did reach out to some folks to see if this was indeed an SGM thing. And the reaction was mixed. They did/do advocate the Pearl’s books and resources, but not so much now. (???) They do advocate many of the same ideology when it comes to raising children. But to date, there are no reports (to my knowledge) of similar abuse or harm from the children within the SGM structure.
Here’s one article: http://www.paradisepost.com/news/ci_14427370
Here’s some good analysis: http://online.worldmag.com/2010/02/25/to-brainwash-a-parent/
Of course, readers you can google Lydia Schatz and get more info.
And Carlotta …you are so right: “This is spiritual tyranny. This is legalism in a particularly vile form. ” If I don’t raise perfect, obedient children who would never quiver an eyelid in dissent against my parental authority, then I am disobeying God.”
The progression of ideas that one must hold to begin advocating such things is at their core horrific. Add to that, a doctrine that says “you’re a sinner, you’re a sinner, you’re a sinner.” There is no way out from under this impossible standard. The human psyche is not designed to live in the face of such dreadful internal conflict. This kind of physiological pain inflicted on a young mind is what produces some of the most twisted humans known to man.
Has she left? If not, I must say I am always amazed at this dynamic. People can listen to the SGM teaching and observe the practice have huge concerns in their soul about what they hear, know of objective catastrophic failures of the outworking within their doctrine, and STILL remain.
Anyway…
I am not much of a reconstruction-ist myself. Long ago I realized that what the book of the Revelation describes is nothing more than the logical conclusion of Adam’s rebellion. Because of some profoundly inaccurate teaching designed to bolster Augustine’s syncretism, most people don’t grasp what really happened in the Garden. Sooo …. understanding the whys and wherefores of how this all wraps up eludes them too.
I have hinted at this in various articles. Jesus’ issue with the Pharisees revolved around what he identified as Leaven. There was something about the content of what they preached that was corrupting. I spent about three years in the Woodstock Theological library in Georgetown ferreting out what that was all about. Eventually, I will have to turn my attention full-bore to bring those concepts to light, because that leaven is the fuel of spiritual tyranny…
Deep breath…
So much to do…
And Carlotta … you are making plenty of sense. I’m glad you are reading… and welcome your input as you have time raising your football team.
Thanks John – I’m going on a low internet availability road trip with the family for my husband’s Spring break – will try to corral my thoughts and come up some coherent sentences to add to the pot when I get back. Please pray for the Schatz’s shattered family…those poor kids.
Thank you for having this forum, it is my first foray into the cyberworld, and it has given me a chance to put into words some thoughts that have been swirling around in there.
Joe, an interesting way to put this… “I laugh when I think of all the efforts to maker a pseudo-science out of Christianity and then pass it off as the way it was meant to be.”
I’ve been trying to decide how best to respond; so many comments to be made about so many different concepts. It would be easy-ish to turn this into a post of its own. But… not ready to lay it all out. My goal is to keep this tight but that will also mean I will leave a lot unsaid. Oh, well… that can’t be helped.
I have said these two things in other places: Man abhors chaos. Man must integrate his understanding of the world. These are drives so implicit to his nature, so consuming of his energy that he cannot escape this any more than he can escape needing water and salt.
But here is the problem: chaos is built into the very fabric of creation. Nothing in creation is stable… BY DESIGN. As a result, man wakes every day staring into the face of something he cannot abide. For many people, this is the single greatest source of their psychic pain. Their days are spent in an endless tumult over looking for “certainty” that eludes them like so much vapor.
I observe three reactions to this reality:
1. Overwhelmed by chaos, they tune it out, reduce their awareness to the concretes of the moments and act surprised when the gremlins of chaos strike.
2. Others decide there is no absolute and let their minds wonder aimlessly from transient truth to transient truth, surprised when they encounter a surety, and dismiss it with some form of philosophical cynicism.
3. Create an all encompassing Highest Truth, declare it superior and everything else subordinate. Declare commitment to that truth the measure of authentic humanity, and seek to create a Future State, founded on that highest truth, declaring such an event would make the world neat and tidy.
Pause a moment and consider: you will see that most all philosophical systems are in service to one of the three reactions above.
Dear Spiritual Tyranny Reader, if you are looking for an example of the first, maybe gaze in the mirror.
The second point is Kantian philosophy and the horrific aftermath of his assertions. The modern age has suffered his effort to separate man from his mind, and his mind from reality, and we have reaped the disaster of that whirlwind in the subsequent tides of bankrupt intellectual schools of thought.
There is absolute truth but humanity has always struggled to grasp the NATURE of that absolute. He does not grasp its nature because man is, at his core, determined to wage war against truth. It is in this warfare that Man exchanges truth for a lie. There is nothing accidental in that transaction. Man purposes to take what he can observe and absolve himself of the correct response: this piles chaos on chaos by piling violence on reality. And here is the thing: reality hits back.
The aftermath of this violence is an ongoing descent into ever increasing measures of self-inflicted temporal disaster as man, by steps, exchanges truth for a lie, and another truth for a lie. He will travel this path all the way to absolute degradation and at the very bottom will chip an image out of stone, prostrate himself in one last vain effort to integrate the world into a cohesive whole. The ultimate irony: man seeking to lay the chaos of his deliberate neglect at the feet of an image wood.
The third is Christianity with all of its sub-movements and denominations in spades. Plus Communism, and Islam, and a host of other social movements that are determined to build a future state. Most all spiritual tyranny occurs in service to this future state driven by the concept of a Highest Truth. This comes from believing that truth is like a ruler that can be wielded by anyone, to measure everything else by a static line. But the ruler gets broken into pieces and then more pieces as each group adopts its own Highest Truth and beats people about the head and shoulders in a mad effort to create a mythical future state where it all makes sense. IF everyone would just live in service to this ONE TRUTH, all would be right in the world. So those aspiring to the Highest Truth will seek to create government to bring forth that Future State:
· The prophesied moment when the lions will lay down with the lambs and man beat his swords in to plows.
· The worker’s paradise manifests and the pure men of the proletariat tills the soil peaceably and all have according to their need, from each according to their ability.
· The day when Allah swallows the infidel and the faithful attain peace and enter paradise.
· The earth will bring forth its bounty, and the forces of nature will return to benevolence, as Gaia, pleased by the endless interconnectedness holds all as ONE.
All hail the Future State!
Strike up the anthems!
Pledge allegiance!
Join hands.
We are all children of God, Children of the world, Children of Mother Earth.
We are one.
Feel the brotherly love.
Nothing else really matters.
Commit to the Collective.
Abandon Ambition.
Forsake selfishness.
Submit to Authority!
Make your leaders work a joy.
Kumbaya. Kumbaya. Kumbaya.
Maranatha!
Sorry… getting carried away here. I’ll end there so I don’t succumb to the need to turn this into its own post.
But I think you get the idea and I will let you ask the obvious question.
Millstones around the neck.
I am a little confused. I am legitimately asking for an answer, and I don’t have a sarcastic or malicious tone in my typing in the least. With that being prefaced:
1) What exactly are you holding Larry Tomczak and Che Ahn resonsible for? How exactly are they at fault for PDI/SGM today, and what would you have them do about it tonight?
It would seem that, and perhaps I am just misunderstanding, but it would seem as if you are holding the same legalistic standard over those two the way we all are disgusted at how SGM does their members.
I don’t quite understand how you chose those 2 men, considering they have had nothing to do with that ministry in at least a decade, probably 2 decades for Che.
How can they be held responsible for the current problems within SGM? I am legitimately asking. I am not understanding your Biblical train of thought on that.
I highly doubt that on “Judgement Day” Jesus will hold these men acocuntable for whatever is happening there, or for whatever HAS happened there.
Man, I am soooooo glad that I serve a God who doesn’t hold my past failures, my past immaturities, my past mistakes, my past anything against me. And only HE knows the depth of my repentance.
I would also just submit that it is a very slippery slope to accuse people, and place blame with judgement on someone in general, let alone people I doubt you know personally.
What is frustrating with sites like this is, it continues to perpetuate a cyle of division, rather than a spirit unity or reconcilliation. Do you pray for these men, or just air what you perceive to be their sins to the public? There is a way to “teach” the body about correct Biblical application within church leadership, but as a believer I was quite saddened at your negative approach.
It would seem to me that those of us who have “seen the light” so to speak, would be provoked out of love, not what comes off as bitterness. Again, maybe I am misunderstanding you. I hope I am.
The bottom line is Christ died for ALL of us. He desires CJ, Larry, Che, me, you, the bum on the corner, etc. Regardless of whatever we have all done, the Lord is always at work and HE alone knows our hearts. Larry & Che are STILL Jesus’ beloved. Thet are STILL grafted in. They are STILL your brother’s in Christ.
I would encourage all of us to be careful at how quickly we bash public ministers. I will bring to rememberance that it was false accusations and “public bashing” that aided to Christ’s crucifixion, yet He was without sin. (I am in NO way comparing Larry or Che to Christ, but simply using that as an example of how wrong it is to just jump on the ”word of mouth” band wagon.) Rarely do we ever know the full story anyway.
There is a difference between holding one another accountable within the global Body, and picking apart one another in the global Body. If you have a problem with Larry or Che, maybe you should write to them. Hey, it’s scriptual! I think you’d be surprised at their response to you.
I would love to see these Christian versions of “The National Inquirer” stop, and a little more Christ like behavior shown.
I can’t imaging Jesus is pleased with some of the comments.
I can bet no one would talk this way about their friend’s, yet it’s okay to do so when someone is “just a figure” and not a person in our lives. How can that sit right with you?
I am aware that most of us, especially any “ex SGM’s”, are probably very “put off” by seemingly legalistic “corrections”…….but we ARE still held accountable to Christ AND character whether we are angry or bitter or whatever. I think your posts could be much more effective for the Kingdom if you were to re-evaluate your approach.
Hi, my name is Mike. I’m currently a member of a one-year-old church plant affiliated with Sovereign Grace ministries. In my life I’ve been a member of three different Sovereign Grace churches: Solid Rock Church, in Riverdale, Md, where John Loftness is currently serving as senior pastor, Sovereign Grace Gilbert, in Gilbert Az, where Steve Shank is currently attending as a pastor and representative of the leadership team, and most recently, Grace Church Peoria in Peoria, Az, led by my friend Chris Daukas.
While I’ve never experienced anything like what has been described either here, or on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com and http://www.sgmrefuge.com, I freely admit that such spiritual abuses may have, and probably did, occur. While some of these complaints are merely the unwillingness of some people to submit to what I believe is biblical authority, I have no doubt that in it’s thirty plus year history, mistakes have been made, situations have been mishandled, and yes, sins have been committed.
While this is grievous, it’s not currently what concerns me. What concerns me is the hostility, vitriol, smugness, lack of charity and lack of humility in this blog post and it’s subsequent comments. This ostensible lack of Grace, true forgiveness or understanding of *everyone’s* need for a savior has unfortunately been a defining characteristic of nearly all voices condemning SGM and it’s leaders and I don’t think it serves your cause in any way shape or form. In these rants, it’s extremely difficult to separate the facts from the obviously biased and slanted opinions. This blog post is a perfect example. You’re ranting with as much anger and hatred as you can muster, against two people who have nothing to do with SGM. This kind of backwards thinking and unreasoning lashing out is the reason that abuses take place and nothing is ever done. Who would you be more likely to listen to, the ranting angry guy, or a rational, calm individual systematically holding SGM against holy scripture and defining wrong practices *that* way?
That to me, is the most damning evidence against the entire anti-SGM movement. Scripture is rarely held up as an example, and when it is, it’s usually taken out of context. “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16) So why are you treating it as a hindrance to your cause? How about Romans 8:1? James 5:9? 2 Timothy 2:14? Phillipians 2:1-3? Do you perhaps ignore these verses because if you followed scripture then you would have to extend grace and offer rebuke in a manner that please God rather than just ripping SGM apart and pleasing yourself?
“Gutless ‘apostolic’ frauds”? Where is your humility, grace and charity? Don’t you think those Godly traits would serve survivors of spiritual abuse better than your smug, self-righteous asides? I pray that you are not a pastor or in any form of leadership in a church.
If *all* SGM churches are spiritually abusive, then why have I never felt anything but love and care for my spiritual life? If CJ Mahaney is a criminal, as so many of you are rather vehemently asserting, why is there no ongoing investigation of SGM? If you are the victims, then why does it seem to me that all the attacks are coming from your side and being patiently weathered by CJ and the leadership of SGM?
I felt the need to weigh in here, because I’m a survivor of real spiritual abuse from a para-church youth organization that I won’t name here. Suffice it to say that the environment there was judgmental, legalistic and ultimately, incredibly discouraging. I was held to an impossibly high standard, and if I sinned I wasn’t pointed to my need for grace won by Jesus’ sacrifice but to the fact that *I* needed to try harder. This is the polar opposite of was I experience regularly at Sovereign Grace.
My church is my family who have never judged me despite some pretty blatant and obvious sins.
My church is where I experience grace and forgiveness through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus through grace alone, through faith alone,
and my church is the one place where I know I am serving God and am exactly where I’m supposed to be.
I want to be clear here, I have no doubt that sins have occurred and that abuses have taken place, but as near as I can tell those have been the exception and in fact are contrary to the tenets that SGM strives for. We live in a fallen world and even the most spiritual among us is still utterly sinful. If you’ve ever heard CJ preach, you know that he is the first to admit his own shortcomings. The five men that make up the leadership team can hardly be held responsible for the actions of every person ever to set foot in a Sovereign Grace church.
Contrary to popular opinion, CJ does not run every single church from a hidden underground lair, monitoring the people’s vital signs via nano-bots implanted at the Next conference. He’s just a man, as sinful as you or I, attempting to glorify God with his life, which is more than I can say for many of you, whose soul purpose is not to give God glory, but to see SGM smeared. I pray that you will repent and turn from your sins of bitterness and anger and instead seek to pray for SGM to address these issues and see how they can better serve God’s people. I pray that you will seek to rebuke SGM for real abuses humbly, rather than spitting bile and smugly sitting in judgment.
I commend Heather for her comment. It was nice to read an intelligent, humble, well-thought-out and graceful statement, as opposed to the sickening, divisive, and uncharitable comments that I’m sad to say make up the majority of this blog. Grace and peace to all of you through Christ Jesus our Lord!
Yeah… Mike… you guys make me smile.
Thanks for the comment…. or maybe it was a filibuster?
Oh the irony in your words… and I do so love irony. I’ll let someone else point it out… I’ve got sharp readers.
But this accolade I will heap upon myself–Dear Spiritual Tyranny Readers… uh…. dare I point out how right I am … again? All hail the moral relativism!!
The Tyranny of Tone rears its Moral Exhibitionist head.
.-= John Immel´s last blog ..Sense =-.
Well, John, I’d address the smugness and obvious pride in your words being displayed here, but I’ve beaten that particular dead horse near to death with my last post. I will address that your comment doesn’t seem to have any discernible point, and that you haven’t actually taken the time to logically argue or even acknowledge my concerns: IE lack of humility, lack of any scriptural foundation, lack of kindness.
So, sincerely; thanks for proving my point.
And incidentally, read your last blog post. Perhaps you should concern yourself less with the tyranny of tone and more with the tyranny of postmodernism and rhetoric. The gospel of Christ crucified doesn’t change. “Orthodoxy” is not “collectivism” it is simply a desire to live a Christlike life; pleasing to the Father. Not because it’ll save us, but because we are saved. You seem to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Should orthodoxy be more humble in the church today? Absolutely. Should we be slaves to sacraments and ceremony at the expense of a real relationship with God? Of course not. I know that it’s infuriating when a mega-church passes the collection plate three times before the first message, but you don’t get anywhere by defying the idea of any scriptural authority whatsoever. There is a God, and if there is, then I’m not in charge. Neither is my pastor of course, but He has been called to his position. I honestly would rather die than live in a world where God doesn’t use anyone to His glory. That’s not the God seen in the bible:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.” -Acts 20:28
“Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.”
-1 Thessalonians 5:12
Of course there is a calling for pastors to be held to a higher standard, (1 Tim. 3:1-13 and Titus 1:7 are just a couple of examples) and if they fall short, said pastors should reexamine their position, but to throw out the idea of biblical authority altogether? You’re on shaky ground friend.
Maybe I’m completely missing your point, though. I’d welcome any admonition or correction you could offer if I am. Hope you’re all being blessed on this, the Lord’s day!
Oh, Mike… you are a gem. You have no idea how much I appreciate your words.
.-= John Immel´s last blog ..Sense =-.
And Mike, could you do me a favor, please? Would you be willing to expand your comment “The tyranny of Postmodernism…” for the class? Some might not be familiar with what you are commenting on.
Thanks much,
John
.-= John Immel´s last blog ..Sense =-.
That’s cool. Maybe you could go into why you’re gleaning so much joy from my little diatribe.
Not that I’m not appreciative of smugly delivered, inexplicable asides. It’s just that after reading miles of your prose, I’m still kind of lost as to the point you’re trying to make.
Postmodernism is a tendency in contemporary culture characterized by the rejection of objective truth. What I’m specifically addressing is your seeming willingness to apply postmodernism to the local church, apparently asserting that since there’s no such thing as objective truth, then any attempts to encourage or rebuke are essentially evil. I simply don’t ascribe to that.
Collectivists seek to give priority to group rights over individual rights, and while I see where you’re coming from, I don’t think that the body of Christ seeking to hold it’s members accountable to sanctification falls under that category. God calls us, in scripture, to live Christlike, through the work of the holy spirit, to the glory of the father. People are designed to desire community, but more than that, people are fallen and incapable of a relationship with the father on their own. Christ’s death on the cross took care of our greatest need, freed us from sin and allowed us to seek Christ, but that’s not where it ends.
Romans 6:1-12 is a call to live Holy, and we can’t do that without the accountability of Godly men. Now if you have some scriptural basis for any of the rhetoric you’ve posted, by all means share it with me. I’m not so arrogant as to think I have it all figured out, so if you can offer any insight, logical arguments to anything I’ve said, or anything apart from arrogant pointless sarcastic barbs, then by all means let’s talk. If I’m wrong then tell me why. I’m listening.
sigh… ok… wasn’t looking for the first sentence in a Wiki page… I see how it is. that is fine… i’ll handle it.
Don’t bother. It’s obvious neither one of us is going to convince the other of anything. You haven’t even been able to muster up the energy to even tell me what you’re trying to say, or even correct your spelling. So I’ll just bow out here. I have church in a few hours and I’d rather not have this pointless conversation in mind when I’m trying to worship God. Thanks for the stimulating conversation and for having so little respect for my viewpoints as to not even address them. Don’t bother replying, I’m officially unsubscribing from this particular waste of time.
Mike… dude… come on. Accusing me of not having the energy to actually speak my mind is observably false. Spiritualtyranny.com contains some 300,000 of my own words. I’ve demonstrated tireless energy in that end…
Sigh…
Do they not teach patience at that church you go to?
How come it hasn’t occurred to you that I was considering my words as opposed to just sniping? (In fact, I was about 1,800 words into a response that was going to be a post with you making a guest appearance. But I will probably scrub that now.)
Besides, I know your criticism sounds new to you… but they are not to me. I’ve had plenty of driveby bloggers take me to task over the exact same issues… I respond to them, in good faith at the time, but they are long gone. Didn’t really expect you to hang around and with the last comment, I was apparently correct to just wait you out.
But even more to my perspective… I have spent a heavy amount of energy addressing the core of your charges in many other posts and subsequent comments. So, I am not too terribly motivated to rehash what I’ve already said.
Whatever… I’m not offended. It’s okay… you have a life to live. Everybody does: go do what you have to do… Your comments will stand. People can accept, reject, or pick up where you left off.
Peace out!
Mike,
If you’re lurking and I suspect you are….
I clicked your name expecting to find a blog or something that I could read to get a sense of who you are and I got a Grace Church.
Sorry but that’s sort of odd.
Also, we have been discussing things like child molestation. That *Warrents* a vigorous response.
If you can sip your tea politely while becoming aware of such atrocities, Is that a virtue?
So, let me know if I’m comprehending this because, after all, I’m just a slow girl; you get your boxers in a wad because your theological superheros are dissed but you expect the rest of us to stay calm when we learn of children being abused while your superheros twiddle their collective thumbs.
Hi John,
I’m one of your sharp readers (and obviously very smug and lacking humility) but I’m not going to explain why you find Mike’s comment so hilarious. Mike might still be reading your blog and I don’t want him to get it. I think it’s killing him that you find his comment hilarious (or maybe that he can’t figure out why you find it so hilarious) and I’m hoping none of your sharp readers out there will have the “humility, grace, and charity” to explain it to him. Yeah, I’m mean too. So that makes me mean, smug, lacking humility and grace…kind of like you, I guess. Maybe that’s why I’m following your blog. LOL
Okay, I’m digressing. I’m writing because I want to point out something really petty…but very telling, I think. (wink, wink)
The following sentences are taken from Mike’s comments.
“…I have no doubt that in it’s thirty plus year history, mistakes have been made, situations have been mishandled, and yes, sins have been committed.”
“What concerns me is the hostility, vitriol, smugness, lack of charity and lack of humility in this blog post and it’s subsequent comments.”
“This ostensible lack of Grace, true forgiveness or understanding of *everyone’s* need for a savior has unfortunately been a defining characteristic of nearly all voices condemning SGM and it’s leaders and I don’t think it serves your cause in any way shape or form.”
“…and while I see where you’re coming from, I don’t think that the body of Christ seeking to hold it’s members accountable to sanctification falls under that category.”
Four instances. A typo? Don’t think so…
And he had the balls to point out that you didn’t even take the time to check your spelling when he himself didn’t take the time to learn the difference between it’s and its?! Funny guy, huh? He probably wants to be a stand-up comic someday. LOL
Ah… Pedro… I do so love irony. Unfortunately, a rather troublesome learning disability prevents me from seeing this particular paradox. I know better than to type in a blank box… my bad… but certainly didn’t think a typo was a catastrophic character flaw. Oh, the tyranny of Orthodoxy… LOL
As for his aspirations at standup… I’m thinking maybe no… he sips his tea politely in the face of rape… how in the world would he survive the satire of a comedy club? Besides, that would require a funny bone and I think they amputate those in Christian circles.
Welcome, and thanks for the comment, the education and your profound lack of grace and humility. Maybe we will hear from you more…
.-= John Immel´s last blog ..Sense =-.
“While some of these complaints are merely the unwillingness of some people to submit to what I believe is biblical authority,..”
Mike, there is your real problem and a huge sin trap for you, my friend. It is from Rome. Not from scripture…which teaches that those who function within the Body are lowly servants. Jesus Christ is the authority.
But your errant interpretation works well to give preeminance to certain men. And believe me, it is everywhere these days. I fear for your souls. It never occured to you that such “Great men of God” as they are described by many, could be deadly wrong, but they are.
.-= Lin´s last blog ..The Final Inspection =-.
Mike, I meant to include that your comments show that you believe “biblical authority” is your interpretation of proof texts that have been taught and translated into human authority in the Body. Sort of an Apostloic succession of sorts which is very Roman.
SGM is a horrid cult that masquerades with lots of Christian make up. I would ignore you except that our own cultists, such a Mohler, have invited you in to the SBC. He tried to have “priesthood of believers” taken out of the Baptist Faith and Message back in 2000. We cannot have that when one is trying to be the authority over others in the Body. It implies that all believers are priests and that cannot be…one would lose their preeminance if that were true.
.-= Lin´s last blog ..The Final Inspection =-.
The entire submitting to their authority thing doesn’t hold water in my case because I was dismembered by the leadership so my rogue status is a product of their own asshattery.
Man…
If any of the information relayed here is true, you folks come across as such childish, bitter and angry people that you’re impossible to take seriously.
uh… then … why comment at all?
Mark-Your comment makes no sense. If what we say is true–if??!!! I know what i went through and some of my friends is true, there is no if. also, i am neither angry childish or bitter. Such judgement plced by someone who has not been involved in our situation shows the very characteristics you lay at our feet. “If” what we say is true then we should be taken seriously. if you are a troll looking for a reaction-well you got one-congratulations, if you are looking for the truth then i suggest you enter the conversation with some compassion for those who have been and arestill being damaged by the beliefs and actions of those described herein.
Sad to hear about all the funk at SGM. I remember TAG, thought CJ and Larry were the bomb. Hung in Cov Life and SGM for a bit back in the day. Interesting blog, I’d challenge you to take it a step further and ask where God is in all of this?
Peace
forthelulz? strange name… but we’ll go with it. And back in the day, lots of people thought both Larry and CJ were the bomb, which is, of course, why people are so fussed after the fact. For all the marketing and packaging … when the veneer has been pulled away… well, it ain’t pretty.
As for the challenge… not sure I understand what you are after. Not least of which the challenge I’ve set up for myself is more than sufficient to my task at hand. If you have something to offer or a means to expand the conversation, you are welcome to take a whack at it. If you think you have a line on God’s involvement with all this, then hey…. let’s hear it.
I found this blog when I stumbled onto Larry T’s name and just followed links.
I lived outside the DC area but attended TAG a few times. As a new Christian I was seriously encouraged and emotionally uplifted. I listened to every “teaching tape” of Larry & CJ’s I could find.
I had subscribed to a People of Destiny? magazine. I later dropped it because it talked about the formation of an association of church plants, ministries, etc. And frankly, I was tired of the charismatic – pie-in-the-sky – pollyanna happy crap.
I was never a part of what you describe and experienced at SGM or PDI. I am sure the pain you all have is real and what caused it IS true. And I know it takes years to work past all the junk. I had a similar experience at a large church in the late 70′s. When I left it felt like a divorce. It is hard to sort out.
As for me, I have never been good at “submitting to authority”, i.e. church leadership, because there is always a downside. As a result, it seems that I am rarely included in the “with it” group and usually find myself being cast as a non-conformist, non-team player, and not on par with the others. There is only one king – Jesus.
SO WHAT’S MY POINT?
This blog reminds me of why I no longer attend a church. Church just isn’t a safe place. Like the old song says, “You always hurt the one you love.” Do Christians really love?
Currently, I am bitter, deeply hurt, and an unemployed pastor. I left the ministry after 30 years. I got sick and tired of being a door mat for Jesus. Spoken to like I am a dog. Now, I have no career, no future. What can one do with 3 seminary degrees?
Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy – and he does it through sheep and … pastors.
It’s been 4 years since I left my church (after 17 years). I still haven’t forgiven the jerks that came in and lied about me and worked to destroy me. I committed no sin, stole no money, and sacrigficed too much. And the denominational leadership has forgotten all about me even though I “bore a lot of fruit.”
I think Heather has the best outlook. In my state I couldn’t have written that myself.
Bye
Hello! I am brand new here although I have been a regular blogger, off and on, at Kris and Guy’s http://www.sgmsurvivors.com.
I stumbled upon this today because I googled Larry T. I briefly read what you wrote on this thread, John, and I have to say I have to admire your spirit
. I noticed the last post was by Jeff back in Feb. so I don’t know how closely you monitor this blog but thought I’d pop in any way. First of, so sorry Jeff about what happened to you. That sucks that the church did that to you and I don’t blame you for running away from it all. My friend, Darla Hannah Melancon, wrote a book she calls “Kicked out of Church” and she addresses the same thing. She and her whole family stayed away from church for 9 years…in fact, she is the only one who is making an effort now to come back. Look her name up and you will see her book and a video she made promoting the book. It might help you to watch it or even read the book :) Anyway, much grace to you bro!
Here’s my most recent contribution to Kris’ blog explaining my experience with all three men: CJ, Larry and Che.
If you go to the official website of Covenant Life Church and click on “Our Story,” you will see this first paragraph:
“In the 1970s, a weekly meeting known as Take and Give (TAG) drew thousands to the D.C. area for passionate Bible teaching. C.J. Mahaney, a young preacher converted in the wake of the Jesus Movement, was one of the leaders of TAG’s successful ministry. He longed for something more than an assembly of loosely connected Christians. C.J. and other leaders wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament. So in 1977, they started a church. A small group of Christians (22 at the first meeting) began to gather in the basement of a suburban Maryland home.”
So what this story does not include is the fact that C.J. actually wasn’t the head guy at first. It was Larry Tomczak who first oversaw all the churches that quickly sprouted under the umbrella of PDI (People of Destiny Intl.), now known as SGM. Meanwhile, C.J. became senior pastor of CLC and the third leader, Che Ahn, later went to start a church in L.A. in the 80’s which he called Abundant Life Community Church or ALCC (now called Sovereign Grace Church of Pasadena). What’s important to know is that these three leaders used to be really close buddies and those original 22 members were truly committed, passionate and radical followers of Jesus. They all felt they were on the “cutting edge” but that also meant they started propagating some of the more “radical” teachings discussed on this blog like emphasis on the headship of man and submission of women, the primary importance of spanking and homeschooling as the norm for child-rearing, the absolute and unquestioning obedience to leaders, etc. Now the three have since gone their separate ways and from what I hear, the relationships are strained at best. It’s really too bad because I witnessed first-hand the genuine love among the three men when I worked for Larry at PDI and went to church at CLC (which most, if not all, SGM staff members still do).
While Che was in Los Angeles, he kept frequent contact with his two partners until the “Toronto Blessing,” as they called it, exploded in the 90’s at ALCC. Larry and C.J., who were against the movement started by Vineyard pastor John Arnott in Toronto, Canada, told Che: either stop the renewal meetings at your church (where they felt bizarre things were happening that PDI could no longer control) or leave. Che decided on the latter and took a whole bunch of people with him (by this time, my husband and I had moved to LA to support his vision and so we were a part of the huge exodus).
Unfortunately, all the things that we have been exposing on this blog, including the spiritual abuse and extreme pastoral control found within the SGM churches also followed Che to his new church, Harvest Rock. Darla, who wrote the book “Kicked Out of Church” was one of Che’s most loyal followers (as was I) and she and her family poured much of their time, money and everything they had into his “new vision” at HR. Unfortunately, as I already shared, despite her faithfulness, Darla got kicked out anyway when the crisis surrounding her son’s molestation became unmanageable and it was easier to just “get rid of the problem” instead of truly finding ways to help this family heal from the deep wounds inflicted upon them.
You know, it’s so tragic that these three men started with this original vision to “build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament” and to watch how far they have deviated from this noble path. I was 19 years old when I became born-again and C.J. became my first pastor at CLC. I was 20 years old when I got married to the brother of Sue Ahn, Che Ahn’s wife, and became a part of their family and later a part of their church. I was 23 years old when I graduated from college and found employment at PDI and worked under Larry Tomczak (turning down more lucrative offers to “give my all” to PDI’s vision). Back then, I put those three men on a pedestal so high that there was just no way I could see them as being anything but God’s chosen, anointed vessels.
I am now 45 years old and in the 25 years I’ve been following their stories, my heart has been broken over and over. I know God must weep over the many, many souls they have knowingly and unknowingly hurt—families and individuals like Darla—who were kicked to the curb and left to fend for themselves simply because they could no longer keep up the façade of the “picture perfect Christian.” Is this what a church built by Peter and Paul in the NT days would have done? Or is this what Jesus warned us about when He said “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees”?
Interested to hear your take on this, John. I like how you think
Hey Pia…
Thanks for your post. I always appreciate it when people weigh in with their thoughts or experience related to Spiritual Tyranny.
The details related to outpourings and Che Ahn helps affirm my take on Larry T. Somehow he has positioned himself as a casualty when in actual fact, he was in full solidarity with the methods and perspectives, which I think goes a long way to explaining his silence. I have a suspicion that he would still be there if he could have figured out how to ‘reconcile’… whatever that would have meant. Since he came out against Reformed Theology in his own mitigating/decisive way, something in that body of thought tripped him up. Who knows? Maybe they wanted him to shave his head since patterned baldness is a prereq.
I did catch Jeff’s comment. I see all comments that hit the blog. But sometimes I choose not to respond. Jeff’s comment was one of those. He didn’t seem to want a conversation… or at least that is how I took it… and… more to the point… the post bothered me. Of course, I had some compassion for Jeff… and a general disdain for the treatment he received. But I was bothered by the underlying helplessness: the implicit abandon of individual motivation, the unchallenged assumption that the sum of his identity was directly limited to church. And when that didn’t fit the bill, he was defaulting to government subsidy.
Since I didn’t have much warm and fuzzy to say, I decided to wait and ponder writing an article on this subject… but I’ve been up to my ears in another project.
Anyway…
As for the “church that Peter and Paul built”… oh… this is the church that Augustine built. Even that doesn’t begin to do justice to all of the evolutions of thought and philosophical developments that have been grafted into Western Christianity.
As for Leaven of the Pharisees, the answer is yes. What we are witnessing is the inevitable evolution of leaven destroying, rotting freedom and liberty from the inside out. I’ve mentioned Leaven of the Pharisees in Family member Tomczak responds (and one or two other places).
Hey John! Wow! I just went through the thread entitled “Family Member Tomczak Responds” (have a sense of who that might be), spent more than an hour reading through the multiple posts, almost cried when I read Heather’s story (I remember her dad very well because part of my job at PDI was organizing pastors’ meetings), got excited when I read Ted’s posts (never met him but Che, my ex-brother-in-law did mention him to me…and not in very glowing terms btw), and just ended my time of reading with a feeling of deep gratitude. Gratitude that there is a safe place for people like us to go to and have a voice against the spiritual tyranny that you so eloquently speak of. I’m just sorry I only found this blog today since these posts were written a year ago! Wish I had an opportunity to chat with these guys as well. Anyway, I wanted to ask: how can I get a copy of your book “Blight in the Vineyard”? After reading my friend’s book “Kicked Out of Church” which was all about her painful departure from Che’s church in 2000, I kept thinking “I wish there was a book that had everyone’s stories in it!” Stories like the one in Kris and Guy’s blog, Jim’s blog and yours! And now I find out that you already have one written! Please let me know…I want to get a copy for all my SGM Survivor friends out here in L.A.! Thanks and have a great night!
Pia… you have been busy. There is a lot to consume on that thread alone. If you haven’t, check out the Start Here page. That will give the broadest overview of what this blog is about. While I do address SGM directly similar to sgmsurvivors.com and SGMrefuge.com my goal is to unravel the ideas that make SGM and many, many other organization possible. I contend that stories like Heather’s are the result of ideas taken to their inevitable conclusion. Forgiveness is an important part of personal healing, but it doesn’t really remedy the underlying issues. For every Heather story that is written, there are dozens and dozens that go unwritten and new women are confronted with the same confounding forces.
So to actually fix the problem requires understanding the forces and wrecking their hold over human existence. That is no small task because the ideas go very, very deep in our Christian Traditions and have seeped into the crevices of our psyche. Survivors and Refuge tend to focus on the stories and the pains and the sufferings. They do that very well and it is apparent that people are helped. But this blog is focused in another direction: the diagnosis and evolution of the broader malaise.
As for Blight in the Vineyard: my editor has the first 160 manuscript pages as we speak. Then she will be getting another section of 48 pages. And then, once I figure out how to finish the last major section she will get the last 40 some odd. I wanted this to be done a month ago but it didn’t happen.
Blight isn’t a compilation of horror stories. But rather the diagnosis of the driving force of the horror set on context to a specific anecdote. It is coming… and trust me… the moment it is available people will get sick of the sign posts telling them where to get it. LOL
Been awhile. I was wondering how the book was coming. it is good to see an update on your progress!!!
Bravo, John, on all your efforts on behalf of the Body of Christ! I am a History and Economics teacher at the secondary level by profession and I am all about understanding and exploring “the diagnosis and evolution of the broader malaise.” While I do not have the intellectual capacity of Christian critical thinkers like you (although, as a public school teacher and a mother, I try to cultivate this habit of of higher-level thinking in my students and my own children and I am thrilled when they are able to postulate brilliant ideas I can barely comprehend), I am very grateful that God dispenses His gifts to the right people and activates them at the right time. I believe you are the right person to write a book like this…for “such a time as this.” Many years ago, I might have been like some of your blog critics and wonder at the rage behind the sometimes acerbic words you use but God has been unveiling many things for me as He has led me to take a really honest look at my own experiences with PDI (from 1986 to 1996); in particular my very close dealings with Larry (my former boss), C.J. (my former pastor) and especially Che (my former pastor and brother-in-law). I liken your role in the Body to that of the sons of Issachar (from 1 Chronicles 12:32) who were “men that had understanding of the times and knew what Israel ought to do.” Jesus reserved His most scathing remarks for the Pharisees and Sadducees. His most violent, angry actions were towards the money changers in His Father’s house. We know that Jesus never sinned so in all His aggressive words and actions, we know He was never out of line and He was actually doing the perfect will of the Father even during those times. I love that He was always tender towards the broken-hearted and the wounded (like the prostitutes and the lepers) but did not hold back his wrath when it came to the religious leaders and rich businessmen of his day. How opposite to what I witnessed over and over again when I worked to put together some of these PDI functions back in the day (those huge Celebration conferences were a pain in the neck to organize) and some of these pastors’ meetings. I would see the red carpet get rolled out whenever some well-known Christian leader was in town (once I had to rent a limo for one of the guest speakers to pick him up from the airport because it was his ”preferred” mode of transportation) or if we had a wealthy doctor visiting our church for the first time. But some woman involved in an “embarassing” case of domestic abuse who finally gets a divorce…some modern-day spiritual leper whose sinful actions were considered so horrible she was deemed “untouchable” and deserving of “shunning”…forget it. She, like so many others like her, was hurriedly shown the nearest exit. I should know. I was that woman. Thankfully, Jesus showed up at my moment of stoning and led me to a “broad place” where I could finally breathe. It’s been many, many years since then and my “boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places and surely I have a delightful inheritance” (Psalm 16:6). My ordeal with PDI, unlike so many others, did not leave me permanently wounded and cut off from the Lord (by the way, it is always us that walks away…He never does!). In fact, I now have a wonderful healing ministry in my church (yes, healthy churches actually exist!) only made more effective because of what I went through. I know my place very well in the Body. You too, John, have your role to play and it is one that could be easily misunderstood by those who cannot read between the lines of your caustic messages. So take this as a note of encouragement, my brother, and when your would-be stoners try to throw you over that proverbial cliff, just remember what Jesus did…He just walked right through the crowd and let TRUTH open up the way for Him. Be blessed!
Hey John… yeah… the work of my advanced readers was not in vain. After I got all of the early copies back and worked through the comments, it was apparent that I had my work cut out for me. The early version read well, but through the eyes of others, I noticed the flaws. So I pulled Blight apart and started again. I did lots of research. I’ve probably read 20 new books, a host of journal articles, spent time in a local Theological library, and went back through my notes from 91 to 97 and my specific pastoral encounters. ( I had forgotten how much I’d captured.)
I have an advance reader from another country, who claims to be an agnostic who prays for me. (Go figure) Their insights were invaluable. From those conversations, I set out to craft a new outline and a better progression–one that made it possible for someone totally alien to American Culture and Christianity to GET the underlying problems. If their feedback is any indication, I’ve come pretty dang close.
Many of the core elements are the same, but this new version is … different and dare I say better. I am currently working on the last section: Getting Healthy. I have a few things to tighten up and some threads to tie together and then I should be done. The only drawback is that the SpiritualTyranny.com has suffered. I haven’t really posted much in almost 6 months. But it is gratifying… the numbers are remaining very constant, which means that new people are finding it and reading through the blog.
Thanks Pia,
Your comments are an encouragement. Long ago I resolved myself to think and write just because I happen to enjoy doing such things, and let the impact be whatever. But when I look at the scope of the issue and how deeply the assumptions have seeped into every crevice of our psyche, I feel like spitting in the ocean would have more affect. “For such a time as this…” Yeah, there is probably some truth to that. I am unique: The product of a specific set of historical realities that have never existed. It is nice to believe that there is a specific function to life, but that isn’t an end in itself.
The reason I am a necessary cog in God’s plan (assuming I am) is because the church has worked so hard to eradicate people exactly like me for a very long time. The campaign of anti-reason, anti-logic, anti-rationality in service to what I call Mystic Despotism has created the need for the nature of the commentary I give. The bitter part of this dynamic is that Christianity has shown itself so terribly destructive. While I fully think that Christianity is the repository of light and life, it is almost impossible to miss that Christianity’s legacy is death and destruction. There is an occasional flash of brightness, but for the most part, our modern reputation is well earned.
It is true that the content here is not the Prayer of Jabez type devotional moment. Some of what I talk about digs into some hard things to understand, but I submit that once the terms and ideas are defined, the driving forces are pretty easy to grasp. Christianity has already been exposed to the ideas, but we’ve heard them for so long, explained in a specific way, that we accept some very very complex philosophical ideas without a blink so people CAN understand the complexity. The challenge I find that most people have is the discrete evaluation of each step in the progression. They are so used to the intellectual shorthand that when confronted with the ideas as a whole, they are tempted to let their brains go tilt.
Man is created a rational/logical creature. Every expression of our highest and best existence stems directly from that nature. We do rationality so implicitly that it is akin to breathing. As an example, logic is what makes humor possible. All humor is based on an impeccable logic ultimately turned on its ear. Without the capacity to see the logic, the humor fails. Dissect any good knock knock joke and at the core is a bold logical statement that even a 5-year-old can get.
I said this to make this point. People were created to understand what I am talking about. They may choose to be intellectually passive, but very, very, very few people are intellectually incapable. One of the more exhilarating compliments I read about this blog was a woman who said it was like a part of her (her rational self) came alive. ( I was so excited about that review that I sent it to my mom!) The woman giving the review was like you, an educated professional, but her church life had somehow managed to cut out a part of her existence that she needed to rediscover. There is something wrong with that picture, but it is thrilling that she discovered herself.
As for the social leprosy… it is a wonder, with all of Jesus’ overt effort to violate the terms of Torah to directly come in contact with the unclean–prostitutes, sinners, tax collectors, etc.– that Church and Christianity still trend towards shunning people who are somehow beneath them. And I marvel at how often the body of thought driving this dynamic affects women and children. That bugs me on a visceral level.
As for those critical of my presentation, I actually laugh … A LOT … about that. They think my words are invective??!! I’m disqualified for my tone??!!! Ahahhahahahaha… I’m giggling at the absurdity as a write. Oh, I am a wee tyke of a piker when it comes to denouncing venom. My critics have never read John Chrysostom taking after one of his doctrinal adversaries, or Athanasius laying on one of his condemning screeds against marriage; and the Mack Daddy of them all, Martin Luther. (ROTFLMBO) If you have the inclination, check out On the Jews and Their Lies. If you can stomach it, read say a page, or two. Invective??!! Tone??!! Disqualified??!!
And my ideas are condemned by tone? Hahaha… They have no idea of the floodgate of doctrinal rejection that judgment opens up. I relish the day when I can barbeque those sacred cows.
Anyway… Pia, I’m glad you are out there… I’m glad you are healthy. Very few people ever really get there. That is something that needs to be taught I think. And I appreciate any additions to the conversation you choose to bring.
Last night, I poked around your blog some more and realized it would probably take me months to unpack all its meaty contents (maybe I should just wait for the new, improved version of your book?). I have to admit that after years of being fed sweet milk from the pulpit (and my pastors are really quite sharp—they’re just a bit too “seeker friendly” for my taste at times), I had to read more slowly than I typically do and chew and swallow, chew and swallow, then finally digest. But when I got to “Frauds, Papists and European Religion,” my mind just went on overload! OMG…where have you been all my life, John? I feel like that woman you described above…parts of my brain I didn’t know even know existed started pulsating and light bulbs started coming on that I didn’t even know were off!
Now mind you…I teach World History to 10th graders. I know the No-Child-Left-Behind-mandated standards very well. I do my job and teach Greco/Roman Development of Democracy, Rise of Judeo-Christian Principles, The Stages of the French Revolution (from the Three Estates to the formation of the democratic National Assembly to the chaos of the Radical Phase/Reign of Terror to the ineffectual Five-Man Directory to finally the inevitable rise of the tyrant Napoleon)…all the way to WWII and the rise of the 20th century tyrants Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo in large part due to the ineffectual governments like the “wimpy, whiny and worthless Weimar Republic” (that’s how I make my students remember it) who practically gave them Europe and Asia on a silver platter. For years, I have been a teacher and an avid student of HIS-story (which is really man’s story since we pretty much left HIM out of it) but no one…no Christian teacher I should say…ever connected the dots the way you did in that one blog article alone.
I had to really ponder this one:
“With virtually no clue of the fruit of our chosen course, American Christianity is tripping down the same European Religious despotic path, patting ourselves on the back for having finally gotten Christianity right: after all these years and all the supposed chaos we are finally back to what God really intended. Our leading ‘thinkers’ are really historical shills repackaging and resurrecting doctrinal justification for Protestant Papacy in modern American Piety.”
I honestly had no idea how far we had deviated from our forefathers’ vision of “liberty” and “intellectual freedom” for all. This statement also had me in a quandary: “We pound the pulpit proudly for our return to European Religion, and in the next breath insist that God founded this country and Christians wrote the Constitution, never once realizing the two outcomes are diametrically opposed.” How could I not have seen this before?
Then this chilling statement:
“The American Church is doing what the European Religion has always done when History’s Hitlers start beating the drums for hope and change. They become the leading force of pacifying the populace in the rise of every fascist, despotic state in the last 500 years, stifling resistance … until it is too late.”
Do I hear, “Anti-Christ, you can step up now…front and center…your stage awaits you!” Wow!
And I could go on and on quoting you and giving you my animated responses but I’ll end with this one:
“We cannot insist that we are a force of liberty in the world if we practice tyranny within our own walls. We cannot fault the world for destroying freedom if we cannot stand firm against our own fabricated doctrines that subjugate the minds of men. We cannot call ourselves salt and light and dare to wield a sword if we cannot sustain the moral clarity to condemn the fraudulent Protestant Papists pretending covering.”
As I look back now at my own personal history…as the youngest kid in a family of seven led by a strong Asian patriarch, the wife of an abuser/controller for 10 years, the loyal employee of the late great PDI corporation, and a trusting member of the CLC/ALCC churches…I was told by all those in authority over me (and there were so many of them and mostly men) that if I just followed their rules (the Dictated Good) and did what I was told, God would be pleased with me and all would go well. Meanwhile, they were there to protect me and cover me…provide for all my needs, spiritual and otherwise. But at age 27, when I first left my husband right before he turned his misogynistic eyes towards my 3-year-old daughter and was ready to belt her, I realized with horror that they had all lied to me. Homeless, jobless, with 2 kids (at that time) under 3, there was really no one to protect or cover me. My church had completely abandoned me. Thankfully, Jesus was there and He did NOT leave me nor forsake me. He guided me every step of the way to complete freedom and I have never looked back!
One night, I had a dream that I was sitting in a library and in front of me were a stack of books. It was late at night but I was really enjoying myself, feeding my own head with knowledge. And they weren’t books censored by my father, my husband or my caregroup leaders either…they were books of my own choosing! What a concept! I woke up and the thought of becoming a teacher came to me. Many years, several classes, and multiple books later, I was now able to provide for my children (I had three by the time I left my husband, once and for all) and had a full-time job as a certificated teacher—“highly qualified” because I actually had a degree in Economics and passed all the mandated History tests. My walk with the Lord was now more authentic than ever and I discovered that His grace was more amazing than I could ever have imagined!
I love that I can now think for myself and I am now married to a man who appreciates a woman with a brain. I love that my new pastors trust me to lead a ministry and I love that today, I was at Skid Row with my church team (as I am most Sunday mornings)–debating with a young homeless intellectual named Dre who turned his back from God and Church because he could not wrap his brain around the fact that the same “loving God” his parents believed in also orchestrated the Crusades. Dre and I have been having these debates for a year now. We both enjoy it and frankly, I don’t think I’m smart enough to ever win them. But I have a feeling that the love and attention I give him on these Sunday mornings are doing more to fill his lonely heart than my ineffective banterings are.
Lastly, I love that I can read blogs like this and, if I read slowly, chew and swallow, chew and swallow, I can actually follow what you are saying Teacher John. You are so right…we need more teachers and leaders with moral clarity who can lead the way–especially for the young who are still not as indoctrinated as we were like Dre—and resist the spiritual tyrants that abound. Thank God I found at least one right here. J
Pia said: Last night, I poked around your blog some more and realized it would probably take me months to unpack all its meaty contents (maybe I should just wait for the new, improved version of your book?).
LOL… Yeah… don’t wait. Blight in the Vineyard is not a rehash of this blog. While you will see themes and ideas repeated, (an article reprinted)– they will go well together–Blight is a standalone work with a breadth and depth that a blog cannot accommodate.
Love your insights…. More in a bit…
thanks John, Look forward to the book. haven’t heard from me as i have been working on surviving the economic chaos, but i am still floating around cyberspace!!! good conversation between you and Pia!!!
I feel like that woman you described above…parts of my brain I didn’t know even know existed started pulsating and light bulbs started coming on that I didn’t even know were off!
This so thrills me. This is truly at the top of my compliment list.
This statement also had me in a quandary: “We pound the pulpit proudly for our return to European Religion, and in the next breath insist that God founded this country and Christians wrote the Constitution, never once realizing the two outcomes are diametrically opposed.” How could I not have seen this before?
Mmmm … This is because America has never really had a religious war. We’ve never had religious orthodoxy tied to political orthodoxy: And for good reason. This was the barrier that the Founding Fathers set up.
Americans tend to take the consumption of ideas as a vast smorgasbord: anyone can nibble at whatever they like and leave the rest. Christians bootleg endless inconsistencies into our doctrinal statements to let us off the hook of the logical conclusions. And we have never been compelled to make a public confession of religious commitment on threat of death. So, no matter how heated our doctrinal exchange at the end of the day, we can part company without bloodshed.
So, we tend to think that people advocating a form of religio-political orthodoxy as a fringe, ‘extreme’ social aberration on par with Islamic extremists. We tend to label them an unfortunate reality, but not really relevant. So, “Can’t we just all get along?”
What Americans struggle with is that some people really do believe that the use of violence, the use of government to compel right religio-political outcomes is the righteous conclusion. But the doctrines under discussion are in service to this very end. That is their function. And like all expressions of political correctness, it doesn’t take many people to ACT on those assumptions to bring about the forces of tyranny. This leaven can infect the whole lump with profound speed. As a student of 1927 to 1933 Weimar Republic, you know how fast these ideas can blow through a culture. From the publication of Mien Kampf to the establishment of The National Socialists was 6-ish years. Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus and Emanuel Hirsch were primary Christian thinkers and made the case for the theo-political expectations. So, the Lutheran church was front and center advocating the primary elements of their 25-point program. (And the Catholic Center party was in a mad dash to Socialism all the while trying to denounce Stalinist Bolshevism. Oh, the utter insanity.)
And the amazing part is the voices of Christian descent to the rise of the political climate (NOT HITLER) can be counted on one hand. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was virtually a lone voice, and he was ineffective because he conceded so many premises that his political and religious adversaries demanded. He could not offer a counter philosophy because he conceded the solutions already offered. He was a brilliant Christian thinker, but he could not stem the ideological tide because he did not reject the roots of the arguments.
Do I hear, “Anti-Christ, you can step up now…front and center…your stage awaits you!” Wow!
Every despot rises to power in a philosophical vacuum where his strength and power and utter determination to impose his will rolls through an empty people without ANY will to oppose. The Anti-Christ will be no different than any other tyrant. People will love him, and the few that try to resist will be destroyed. The only remedy to any despot is a people utterly secure in their moral clarity to demand liberty.
As I look back now at my own personal history…as the youngest kid in a family of seven led by a strong Asian patriarch….
Oh… sigh… Patriarchy. I don’t have anything profound to say about this… it just bugs me on so many levels. One of the many evils of the world sanctified by “scripture” … So many women have had their lives ripped apart directly related to the insane preoccupation of Men to doctrinally stroke their egos. You are a rare woman to have survived it so well.
Lastly, I love that I can read blogs like this and, if I read slowly, chew and swallow, chew and swallow, I can actually follow what you are saying Teacher John. You are so right…we need more teachers and leaders with moral clarity who can lead the way–especially for the young who are still not as indoctrinated as we were like Dre—and resist the spiritual tyrants that abound. Thank God I found at least one right here.
Uh… dare I say it? So be that teacher? I suspect you are already very skilled in this ability. It is your profession after all. And you have demonstrated a life of proactivity. If your history written above is any measure… you’d be great at this very thing.
Thank you for your vote of confidence, John! You are right that as a teacher, I have a responsibility to train critical thinkers who will be able to reason for themselves and resist tyranny of any kind–even smell it a mile away and have the guts to speak out against it.
Interestingly enough, we came back from our Spring Break today and had a guest speaker lead us on all-day staff development seminar. Having taught for 14 years, I honestly thought this would be another one of those seminars that would be a wasted use of tax payers’ money. But God must really be wanting to get my attention because the guest speaker was a woman named Dr. Linda Elder, the foremost leading “expert” on Critical Thinking who has written tons of stuff on the subject and is widely known in educational circles. I first read her writings when I was doing my Master’s years ago and it was a treat to hear her in person. Almost everything she said today was exactly what you and I have been talking about regarding most people’s unwillingness to become true intellectuals. One thing she said made me laugh, “Some of the loudest critics are those who don’t even understand what they are criticizing but won’t make any effort to truly comprehend the material. They assume right away that they know what it’s all about and make fools of themselves without even knowing it!” I thought to myself, “Sounds like some of John’s critics!”
Anyway, if you’d like to read some of her materials, you can google her. I also took the liberty of copying and pasting one of her articles:
Valuable Intellectual Traits by Dr. Linda Elder
Intellectual Humility: Having a consciousness of the limits of one’s knowledge, including a sensitivity to circumstances in which one’s native egocentrism is likely to function self-deceptively; sensitivity to bias, prejudice and limitations of one’s viewpoint. Intellectual humility depends on recognizing that one should not claim more than one actually knows. It does not imply spinelessness or submissiveness. It implies the lack of intellectual pretentiousness, boastfulness, or conceit, combined with insight into the logical foundations, or lack of such foundations, of one’s beliefs.
Intellectual Courage: Having a consciousness of the need to face and fairly address ideas, beliefs or viewpoints toward which we have strong negative emotions and to which we have not given a serious hearing. This courage is connected with the recognition that ideas considered dangerous or absurd are sometimes rationally justified (in whole or in part) and that conclusions and beliefs inculcated in us are sometimes false or misleading. To determine for ourselves which is which, we must not passively and uncritically “accept” what we have “learned.” Intellectual courage comes into play here, because inevitably we will come to see some truth in some ideas considered dangerous and absurd, and distortion or falsity in some ideas strongly held in our social group. We need courage to be true to our own thinking in such circumstances. The penalties for non-conformity can be severe.
Intellectual Empathy: Having a consciousness of the need to imaginatively put oneself in the place of others in order to genuinely understand them, which requires the consciousness of our egocentric tendency to identify truth with our immediate perceptions of long-standing thought or belief. This trait correlates with the ability to reconstruct accurately the viewpoints and reasoning of others and to reason from premises, assumptions, and ideas other than our own. This trait also correlates with the willingness to remember occasions when we were wrong in the past despite an intense conviction that we were right, and with the ability to imagine our being similarly deceived in a case-at-hand.
Intellectual Integrity: Recognition of the need to be true to one’s own thinking; to be consistent in the intellectual standards one applies; to hold one’s self to the same rigorous standards of evidence and proof to which one holds one’s antagonists; to practice what one advocates for others; and to honestly admit discrepancies and inconsistencies in one’s own thought and action.
Intellectual Perseverance: Having a consciousness of the need to use intellectual insights and truths in spite of difficulties, obstacles, and frustrations; firm adherence to rational principles despite the irrational opposition of others; a sense of the need to struggle with confusion and unsettled questions over an extended period of time to achieve deeper understanding or insight.
Faith In Reason: Confidence that, in the long run, one’s own higher interests and those of humankind at large will be best served by giving the freest play to reason, by encouraging people to come to their own conclusions by developing their own rational faculties; faith that, with proper encouragement and cultivation, people can learn to think for themselves, to form rational viewpoints, draw reasonable conclusions, think coherently and logically, persuade each other by reason and become reasonable persons, despite the deep-seated obstacles in the native character of the human mind and in society as we know it.
Fairmindedness: Having a consciousness of the need to treat all viewpoints alike, without reference to one’s own feelings or vested interests, or the feelings or vested interests of one’s friends, community or nation; implies adherence to intellectual standards without reference to one’s own advantage or the advantage of one’s group.
———————–
While many of her ideas definitely resonate with me, I want to highlight the following about intellectual courage:
“This courage is connected with the recognition that ideas considered dangerous or absurd are sometimes rationally justified (in whole or in part) and that conclusions and beliefs inculcated in us are sometimes false or misleading. To determine for ourselves which is which, we must not passively and uncritically “accept” what we have “learned.” Intellectual courage comes into play here, because inevitably we will come to see some truth in some ideas considered dangerous and absurd, and distortion or falsity in some ideas strongly held in our social group. We need courage to be true to our own thinking in such circumstances. The penalties for non-conformity can be severe.”
Again, I had to think of the PDI/SGM groupthink phenomenon when I read this and felt almost embarassed that it took me so long to see how dangerous and absurd their ideas were and how long it took me to stand up and speak out publicly (without covering up my identity) so others still trapped in the system could be warned. In fact, had I not found Kris’ blog, I might never have opened my mouth. Losing almost everything to leave my tyrannical husband and eventually my tyrannical church was indeed a severe penalty at that time…but man, it saved my soul; my kids’ emotional, mental and physical health; and my authentic relationship with God. Standing up for TRUTH might be terribly severe (look what happened to the prophets and to Jesus) but it is sooo worth it in the end and it will indeed set you free!
“…because the guest speaker was a woman named Dr. Linda Elder, the foremost leading “expert” on Critical Thinking …”
Public schools? Seeking to teach critical thinking? What? No more of John Dewey’s pragmatic progressive education? Let me check the sky to see if it is falling. LOLOLOL
***
“I first read her writings when I was doing my Master’s years ago and it was a treat to hear her in person. Almost everything she said today was exactly what you and I have been talking about regarding most people’s unwillingness to become true intellectuals.”
Well… this is a challenge, because at the moment our leading philosophical leader is Kant… who laid the ax to the root of Man’s rational faculties, and gave new life to the Plato/Augustinian worldview that has dominated western thought for a very long time, when you keep telling people that thinking is useless and ideas are irrelevant, and philosophy is vain, eventually everyone say “piiffle… we don’t need no stinkin’ thinkin.’ “ For thinking to become important, for intellectuals to return, we must advocate rational value. Then we must defend the intellectual by defending his property at all costs.
***
“ Losing almost everything to leave my tyrannical husband and eventually my tyrannical church was indeed a severe penalty at that time…but man, it saved my soul; my kids’ emotional, mental and physical health; and my authentic relationship with God. “
Yes, the stakes really are that high. Actually they are higher. Individually, the stakes can wreck a life… if you let it … But if these ideas take root in a culture, it wrecks everyone’s life.
Pia… I am glad you are out there and it is a thrill that you get the point.
Wow. I just passed by, but it’s obvious that there are some women in this church who think “meek and quiet spirit is despised in the eyes of God” is how the Word OUGHT to read… and you have no problem saying so.
Wow. You can’t even see why God put men in authority… you just know you HATE IT!
…and will pretend it’s the doing of men and not God.
Feminazis have nothing on you!
“While this is grievous, it’s not currently what concerns me. What concerns me is the hostility, vitriol, smugness, lack of charity and lack of humility in this blog post and it’s subsequent comments. This ostensible lack of Grace, true forgiveness or understanding of *everyone’s* need for a savior has unfortunately been a defining characteristic of nearly all voices condemning SGM and it’s leaders and I don’t think it serves your cause in any way shape or form. In these rants, it’s extremely difficult to separate the facts from the obviously biased and slanted opinions. This blog post is a perfect example. You’re ranting with as much anger and hatred as you can muster, against two people who have nothing to do with SGM. This kind of backwards thinking and unreasoning lashing out is the reason that abuses take place and nothing is ever done. Who would you be more likely to listen to, the ranting angry guy, or a rational, calm individual systematically holding SGM against holy scripture and defining wrong practices *that* way?
That to me, is the most damning evidence against the entire anti-SGM movement. Scripture is rarely held up as an example, and when it is, it’s usually taken out of context. “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16) So why are you treating it as a hindrance to your cause? How about Romans 8:1? James 5:9? 2 Timothy 2:14? Phillipians 2:1-3? Do you perhaps ignore these verses because if you followed scripture then you would have to extend grace and offer rebuke in a manner that please God rather than just ripping SGM apart and pleasing yourself?”
Well said. Finally, a Christian on a Christian blog, with a Christian perspective and a Christian attitude.
For the critics slamming their brothers, did it ever occur to you that there isn’t critic who isn’t a hypocrite? You’ll find that in Romans 2.
Also, how did you miss the fact that the only people God saves are sinners, and they never seem to stop. That includes you and me. How did you miss the wisdom of God in, “blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy” and “for with the same measure that you mete it shall be measured to you again.”
It’s so easy to get angry and self-righteous. But how many minutes should it take to say, “Wow, Lord. I’ve done far more wrong than this.”
I’ll say it again a little differently. ONLY hypocrites point their fingers.
How many unbelievers are reading this blog and saying what Jesus wants them to say, “Look how they love one another.” The only people you can love are sinners… guilty sinners.
When you screw up (and Jesus promises that you’re reap what you sow, so you have to screw up so that you can reap what you’re sowing), how do you want those who watch you to treat you?
I remember years ago when I was talking to a pagan and somehow a thief came into the discussion and this pagan said, with graciousness, “I’ve stolen too.” I was amazed that this man, who didn’t know the Lord Jesus, refused to let his heart judge a thief because he recognized his own guilt.
Just imagine for a moment how the church — your church, would be if all of you had the attitude, “I want to reap mercy and grace when I screw up, so I’m going to show it.”
You may think that your finger pointing suggests that you’ve got it together, but those who know the Word know we fault others because we’re guilty.
Tell me… is this obtuse?
Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 And do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment upon those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
I’ve actually been in people’s presence and shared these Scriptures and guess what ALL of them say.
“I am not!” “I did not!”
Yeah, God’s stupid and a liar. He made it up because He doesn’t have good sense.
Look how long it has taken CJ to come to see his pride. It’s been years. That should give you pause to look in the mirror and say, “Oh God, put a watch over my mouth!”
As I said, I was just passing by. I know none of you and have never even met any of you. I only see the pride, hate, judgment and contempt and realize that WHILE you’re pointing the finger, walk in front of the mirror. Stop focusing on the sins and remember that Jesus ONLY forgives the guilty. Aren’t we supposed to be like Him?
Not crucified with the women…
You know… there is no end of irony when a man decides to lecture women on the God appointed nature of their place, but can’t do it with their own name, and will not supply the blog owner with a valid email address. If you are going to thump your misogynistic chest in the name of biblical purity, you might consider having the courage to put your own name on the tirade. So quit being a big metro sexual, take off the burka and let the glory of your masculine superiority shine through for everyone to see.
As for calling the women posting on this blog Feminazi’s…. I know that small minds must steal the intellectual creativity and abilities of others, but if you are going to hijack Rush Limbaugh’s coined term Feminazi at least use it correctly.
I see it’s not just the women eaten up with feminism.
Lol… evidently true… you’re the one hiding Hahahahaha…
I’ve heard that Enzyte helps male confidence. It is a placebo, but some guys need all the boost they can get.
My bad. I should have paid attention to the page title and realized from the get go that this is enemy territory.
You like that spirit.
No Thank You,
Define “authority over women”
Define “unbeliever”
Define “sin”
Define “Word of God”
when you realize that presuppositions such as these (and that is what they are) also presuppose that your views are correct and other views, are, well, wrong – then you might understand how it was possible for a pagan to display such grace who “gets it”, even though, according to you, they would also be an “unbeliever” who didn’t believe in the “Word of God”, “sin” or didn’t give a rip about authority of men over women.
God did SUCH a good job when he created us in his image that definitions, dogma, and doctrines don’t mean jack. Try reading anything extra-biblical to expand your knowledge base, or if you can’t bring yourself to that, try reading other interpretations that are contrary to your own. “It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” Thomas Paine
No Thank You I Don’t Want To Be Crucified By The Women,
So what you’re also saying here (aside from the feminazi stuff) is that John (or anybody for that matter) can’t/shouldn’t be mad at the child molester (A) and the child molester’s protectors/church leaders (B), but we can/should be mad at John for being mad at A & B. John can’t “judge” A & B, but we can judge John for judging A & B. So for you, John is the Enemy here for being mad at the child molester and his protectors/pastors who would rather protect the molester rather than the molested child. He’s worse than the A & B and therefore deserves to be judged by you. And even though he’s also a “sinner” (calling him the enemy obviously makes him a sinner in your book), he doesn’t deserve any mercy at all because he’s badmouthing church authorities, right? If he were the child molester or one of the molester’s protectors, we can be merciful to him, right?
Hmm. Is this a requirement at some churches? (Your church maybe?) Protect and serve (and revere, of course) the church authorities at all cost, never mind that they’re protecting child molesters? Let’s just look beyond how the church authorities treated Noelle and Grizzly’s family. That’s not really the issue here. The BIG issue here is John being mad at how the molested child and her family were treated, right? Let’s crucify John for ranting because a child had been molested and that the church leaders treated the little girl’s family horribly. OK, maybe not crucify, at least not now, but let’s call him the enemy. Let’s call him judgmental, hypocrite, and merciless and lacking grace. Let’s just forget about the little girl and her family. Let’s forget that the church leaders will choose to protect a child molester for the good of the Church. What’s the big deal with molestations going on at churches and church authorities protecting molesters anyway? The important thing is to defend the Church and the church leaders. Church leaders should not be put in a bad light because they’re the “authority.” They’re the chosen ones. They can do no wrong. And in case they do something wrong (because it’s God’s will and there must be a very good reason for it) and someone actually had the nerve to say so, then let’s go after that person. He’s the REAL bad guy here, right? We should teach this person not to mess with authorities. So screw you, John. You’re the Enemy!
The dude in the burka swaggers in here pointing his proverbial finger waggling at us.
Pot Kettle Black
Meanwhile, there are serious issues at hand such as the mishandling of numerous molestations.
But what does our patriarchal superhero in the burka have to say?
He drops the bitter red herring (Bitter is one of those things SGM folks throw at people when they don’t have a legitimate response.)
Now, we get to be called feminazis.
What a brilliant contribution to discourse.
And, Mr. Pot, what are your thoughts with respect to the mishandling of multiple molestations?
Juli… Harvey…. DB… uh…. you are trying to have a rational conversation with someone who…. is not. lol
Juli… good quote by Thomas Paine BTW.
Harvey… great dissection of the irony. I do so love irony.
DB… as always insightful and pointed with moral clarity of the proportion of this issue.
Glad you are all still reading.
Hi John – I’m new here and I have been reading (I think) a bunch of your blog and various subtopics. Can you share with me personnally some of your background? How were you involved in the early days of PDI, Larry T and friends? What happened? Were you booted out? Did you leave because of what you were observing amongst the leadership?
I find your disourse with Pia to be fascinating. I am presently researching Greek philosophy to see what you guys are talking about!
I have been attending a SGM church in PA for 8 years and I am becoming increasingly dissatisfied. I could go on at length but it’s nothing you haven’t already heard before! This business with CJ and our leadership saying “trust me, we will let you know what to think about it when it is all over” leaves me saying “Huh?”
I would appreciate an email dialogue with you when/if you have the time.
Thanks
Dan
Hey Daniel,
Glad you are reading. I find it interesting; you are one of the few to ever really ask what happened to me. Thanks for that. But in fairness this blog has not really been a rehash of spiritual tyranny stories: and that includes my own. Beyond the fact that there are other blogs doing that much better than I ever could, my focus has been to deal with the underlying ideas that fuel the stories, and then what it REALLY takes to get out from underneath the fallout. And that is a very large task, that can’t get done fussing with the emotional pains of the present disaster.
My story pretty much follows the evolution that you read from everyone else: the same arguments, the same heavy handed treatment, the same effort at character assassination, the same guilt, condemnation, and implied spiritual treason. My story is mostly boring and cannot hold a candle to the disastrous treatment of Noel and Grizzly’s daughter, and so many other similar stories. So it doesn’t really bear repetition.
Contrary to popular critical opinion, by emotional investment is has little to do with anger… well, not personal anger, rooted in some form of grudge as such. I don’t happen to accept the premise that anger is by default disqualifying. I think anger is appropriate in the face of such horrific treatment. But I digress.
Was I booted? For all practical purposes, yes. They invited me to leave, in their own, winsome smiling bowing way that implies maybe it would be best, without ever actually saying “Get out.” A strange hedge considering the pastoral staff referred to my presence as “deleterious” which means evil, wicked, pernicious and destructive. At least that is what my Care Group leaders dictionary defined the word. (Thanks Mike and Robin. I still have those meeting notes)
Since I didn’t just leave, the leadership made it functionally impossible for me to participate. I was asked NOT to attend care group. I was told bluntly that I would never be given opportunity to participate in any of their other service outreaches. The message was clear… you can come on Sunday, but don’t “influence” anyone, which means I couldn’t TALK to anyone. And the quarantine pretty much extended to all those people who called me “friend.” When it was crunch time, they treated me like I had cooties.
It took a while, but I realized I could never win against the SGM war of attrition … I quite attending. It took about two years for my “pastor” to write a letter wondering where ever had I gone, as if he were an innocent bystander in the grand game of pastoral thuggery.
Maybe someday I will post his letter … and my response. LOLOLOL… that would be a hoot.
Anyway… I would be glad to talk. My email is john@spiritualtyranny.com
Dan, i did respond to your email, however, i am concerned it ended up in your junk folder.