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Protect yourself
Who’s Your Daddy?
Her Daddy told her this day would come. He told her there would be boys who took her out for a drive, who said they wanted to know her better. She’s sixteen, with a boy she likes, big baby blues wide with affection. He’s whispering sweet nothings in her ear. It feels right, but it doesn’t. Something is missing, but she can’t tell what exactly. He keeps telling her this is what people do when they get to know each other.
But should they be doing…this?
Respect yourself, her daddy says.
Don’t give yourself away.
Expect commitment!
Be cautious with intimacy.
But…oh the sweet agony…
The boy is giving her attention, he’s focused on her. Whispering in her ear, telling her how pretty, how valuable, how profound it is that God would put her in his life.
She wants to belong!
She doesn’t want to make him angry.
A kiss here…
A touch there…
Is this wrong?
She hesitates, wanting him to give part of himself, wondering what his commitment is to this intimacy.
He looks angry.
More?
But…
On with my scandalous metaphor
Having interaction with modern Church Leaders is a lot like this.
Outrageous, you say!
Really?
Certainly my metaphor is inflammatory but the goal is not sensationalism. I am shining a glaring light on exploitative interactions embedded in leadership presumption, the exploitation of our deep-seated need to belong somewhere, to be loved for the sum of our value, to be affirmed in our identity.
I speak from personal experience. Tell me if you see yourself in these words.
During a summer break from college I was asked by a pastor from a large local church to do some broom-pushing work at his church. This church preached that members had an obligation to serve, that doing menial tasks was a sure ministry progression path. I had no reason to doubt the teaching-at the time-about being a submitted worker and waiting on metaphoric tables. I believed the rhetoric that at the right moment the appointed authorities would see my longstanding work ethic, my faith, and “promote” and “release.”
I was traveling to said pastor’s church, chatting about this, that, and the other, feeling good because, Wow, this pastor wants to know me. Wow he wants to find out about little old me. Wow he wants to talk about himself.
As we talk he slips me this Spiritual Roofie: “So, John, what people do you feel limited by?”
I wanted to be accepted. I wanted him to hear my humility in my candor. I wanted him to affirm my self-assessment. I wasn’t threatened by a limitation but was aware of it. Besides, can you imagine the reaction had I said: “Well, I don’t think I have any limitations?” So I said: “I don’t think I would do real well with youth. I don’t think I have a calling to kids because the things I have to say they wouldn’t understand.”
Whatever I expected him to say, it wasn’t this: “With that attitude, John, God will not be able to use you. Unless you are willing to start at the bottom and, ‘push a broom for a while,’ He’ll never promote you.”
EEEEEK! Repent! Sackcloth and Ashes!
I wasn’t quick on the draw those many years ago, so I never really responded to what the pastor said. But I felt used. I felt exploited. I felt that my words were twisted to mean things that I never really meant them to mean. I had given transparency, because I thought that was what was expected and I was exploited just like that shy girl in the backseat of a car. He had used a Spiritual Roofie to disarm me for the sole despicable purpose:
“…you will encounter a man or woman who’s real motive for enforced transparency is to supply information for critique, condemnation, judgment, qualification, and authenticity. These are the college frat-boys who can’t get a woman, can’t get ANY form of intimacy without criminal, despicable actions. These are the folks who couch their appeal to DEEPER relationship so that refusal to open up to THEM is part and parcel of falling away, part and parcel of rejecting GOD, and the Church.”
The pastor had no right to take such liberties with me as a human being, even if it were true that my ATTITUDE was wrong. Even if it were true that all ministry is achieved by recognized service and subsequent promotion: the Pastor had no right to use my candor as a spring board for his Broom-Pushing Theology.
He graduated bible school and started his ministry life in a youth group. After years of working with kids he was tapped to be an associate pastor at a growing mega church. And then he was given the Senior Pastor role at a church planting. In his mind, that path was how he got into his current place: recognized service and subsequent promotion. My candor unwittingly stepped into the middle of his doctrinal expectation. I wasn’t paying homage to Broom-Pushing Theology.
Notice that I suffered because of three key relational dynamics:
- 1. The desire to be accepted, valued, and embraced.
- 2. A doctrinal expectation that eradicated personal boundaries.
- 3. The catastrophic teaching of Broom-Pushing Theology.
I don’t for a moment believe that the aspiration to be accepted, desired, or embraced is a bad motive. However, my eagerness to accept the requirement of soul transparency coupled with the hope that I might be found desirable is what put me in the position to be exploited–much like the shy girl in the back of the car.
I do believe the next two points are bad. The Pastor used a Spiritual Roofie on me to lower my personal boundaries and engage in unearned intimacy. I quote myself from this post:
“These men and women are the worst sort of humans, using the heady power of personal insecurity and spiritual manipulation to command intimacy, command transparency, demand familiarity.”
He judged my attitude based on a wonderful theological fiction that necessitates GIFTING be earned like JOB skills and ministry is bequeathed to those who master a humble attitude via menial tasks.
I was 20 when my car ride took place and not seasoned enough to understand what had really happened. Nor did I understand what happened in subsequent interaction with numbers of other leaders. To my growing frustration, I handled the exploitation with ever decreasing success. I tried all the harder to fit in, flinging the clothing off my soul, flashing any and all spiritual voyeurs.
Did it work? No. Never.
The specifics tended to change from leader to leader, pastor to pastor, but I always heard some variation of “God can not use you until…”
And funny thing: God’s ability to use me was always some qualifying personal revelation that THEY needed from me. And further funny thing: the only way to give THEM that revelation was for me to push yet another broom ever more naked for their voyeuristic pleasure.
How could this be?
Was I that far off the mark?
A realization came years later: God was already using me. I lost count LONG AGO the number of strangers who would come up to me off the street and ask for prayer. I suspect the numbers are in the thousands where my hands have been the conduit of healing, and financial blessing, and my voice has been the medium of teaching, and compassion, and exhortation to people outside of that building we call Church. At every turn God was/is affecting people through me.
So how was it that the leaders that I offered such absolute transparency did not see this? How could the assessment of “Authorities” be so dramatically different than those whom my skills and talents and anointing had helped?
The answer is unflattering. They treated me like a shy girl in the backseat of a car. The pastor of my anecdote is a prime example. He had no interest to KNOW me. He mandated my intimacy and used it for his own purpose. He demanded transparency and used that to qualify or disqualify me for something he thought he should arbitrate.
What did he think he should arbitrate? Everything.
What was his commitment to the relational intimacy? Nothing.
The inequity in this “relationship,” this unearned intimacy, gave him the ability to pick and choose what parts he was interested in using.
When was the last time you had a conversation with a leader where they told you as much about themselves as you felt compelled to share about yourself? Leaders feel an enormous freedom to pressure transparency from “laity” yet lead intensely private lives.
Call a preacher with his name on the marquee and ask them out for a soda some time. NOT A COUNSELING SESSION. A soda and a chat about whatever you find mutually interesting: a meeting of equals. Try carrying on a conversation with them about THEIR lives and you will find them utterly inaccessible.
The tyranny comes when leadership creates doctrines of obligation that demands transparency of people in exchange for approval and acceptance. When leaders have no intention of reciprocating intimacy and use self-revelation to judge and evaluate and disqualify. When we need leaders to LIKE us so that we can “serve” the local body with our gifts and talents, the relationship is fraud. That kind of relationship is exploitation. That kind of relationship is JUST like that shy girl in the back of the car.
Still scandalized?
I know a church where the application process for ministry is as thorough as applying to the CIA. This ministry body is unabashed in their request for personal information: “If you want to minister here, you must tell us everything you’ve ever done, in writing,” and woe to you if you do a Scooter Libby.
Sometimes the pressure to reveal all is more subtle. Even after five years of relentless pew sitting and “service,” ask to move past the free work and on toward Big Important Spiritual Stuff, something like this will cross a pastor’s lips: “I just don’t think you are on board with our vision. Until we KNOW you better, we will just have to be patient and develop a “Relationship.”
I Got Five Kids Waiting for Me at Home
My Grandmother, well into her 80s, is a beautiful woman; when she was in her late 20s she was a jaw-dropping knockout. (Just trust me on this) She was at a Ballroom Dance event. A dashing dance instructor asked her for a Diet Rite date. (A date where they drink soda not coffee.) Her response: “I’ve got five kids waiting for me at home.” She didn’t have five kids, she had two: a single mother in the 1950s. That dance instructor became her husband for 41 years. She put his casual interest to the test. He rose to the challenge of commitment.
It is time that believers expect the same from their leaders. It is time to vet the level of their relational commitment.
Here is what I suggest. Go up to the Uber Pastor at your church and ask to do something he thinks BIG IMPORTANT SPIRITUAL STUFF–something you need to be “promoted” to do. That big spiritual important thing will usually be preaching to the adults Sunday morning, but if not…think about it a while till you come up with his definition of important. Remember you are not asking to work at the bottom of the JOB totem pole, not lick stamps, not pass the offering plate, or greet at the front door.
Whatever his initial reaction–hilarious embrace or outright rejection–the course of action he will demand next will be based on KNOWING you. He will consider it but he doesn’t KNOW you well enough. Or he will reject you outright because he doesn’t know you. If he doesn’t toss you out the door, you will eventually hear some variation of you must perform free work so he can have a forum for a “relationship.”
Here is the next crucial step. Here is where you tell him that you have five kids waiting at home. Since free work is the forum for interaction, have a list of tasks at YOUR house that you would be glad to offer him the privilege of serving toward their completion. (Why should his free work be more important, more spiritual than your free work?) As a leader, he should have long since qualified himself with such a standard. So, theoretically, he should be fully equipped with the requisite humility to persist in menial tasks, and therefore participate in your forum for “Relationship.”
Ehem…
Did that not work? Did he hem and haw, and make vague references to his time being important, (as if your time isn’t) or was he unapologetic in saying he needs to be “ministry exclusive?” Hahaha…
Yeah, huh?
Okay…take the free work off the table. Tell him you only have two kids waiting at the house. Tell him you will gladly have a relationship with him: you will bear all if he does. Then ask him about his sex life–favorite positions, number of partners, the last time he looked at porn, his relationship with his wife, how she treats him, is she submitted in the bedroom, or the kitchen, the problems they have, the challenges they have with their children, his bank account and spending habits, tithing habits. In fact, every question he asks, tell him that you will gladly answer any question the he answers fully FIRST.
The content of THIS interaction would at least have the shape of a REAL “Relationship”: a sense of exchange, and mutual vulnerability, and equal transparency.
Most Church leaders are “relationship” con men, so I suspect you will not get to preach, or do whatever it was HE thought was BIG IMPORTANT SPIRITUAL STUFF. Oh…I know many of them are sincere, but it is long past time for these folks to be evaluated on more than the purity of their intentions. The point of the exercise was to reveal the relational fraud: a despicable practice that serves one purpose–to evaluate, judge, discredit and disqualify.
Who’s Your Daddy?
Refuse being accepted on leadership terms, defined by them, at their sole discretion. The practice is manipulative and exploitative, despicable, and reprehensible. The practice is evil and wrong.
Your Daddy has spoken. You have been told: respect yourself, don’t give yourself away, expect commitment, and be cautious with intimacy. When leaders come groping about your soul like they are entitled to your spiritual nudity, you tell ‘em: “My daddy told me not to get in the car with boys like that!”
Comments
79 Responses to “Who’s Your Daddy?”
Got something to say?
John you are relentless. This is how they lead John — by putting you on the defensive! They are the authority, they are the ones leading, they are the ones pushing you to the 10th level (see Milgram Experiment).
How else could they lead then John? Is there an alternative in an organized body of souls?
Oh and Juli — I got here first…
Real leadership Dan, is the power to advocate effective integrated ideas that have at their source individual sovereignty, blessing and life.
Stay tuned… I will talk about this at length. But first I have to destroy the death grip on people first. LOL
I thinking effective leadership is about going first and leading rather than trying to control what others do. Gandhi did not try be a leader by control, he was a leader because he lead the way….
he led by the power of his ideas
And the power by his actions. I believe both are important.
Shout!
Shout, Shout, Let it all out….
“These are the things I can do without”,
Come on….
I’m talking to you…SGM
Come on….
Shout, Shout, Let it all out….
“These are the things I can do without”,
Come on….
I’m talking to you…SGM
Come on…
They really, really ought to know…
They shouldn’t have to sell their souls…
They shouldn’t have to kiss their “freedom” in Christ, Good Bye!
They’re experiencing a tape worm from the depths of hell…
I hope they live to tell the tale…
Shout, Shout, Let it all out….
“These are the things I can do without”,
Come on….
I’m talking to you…SGM
Come on…
Dan - argh! I can’t believe an entire day passed before I was able to post and read and you DID beat me - oh well..maybe next time…
All in fun Juli — all in fun…
it’s your space ship - you’re faster than me
Sop - thanks for putting Tears for Fears in my head for the next several hours..
John - interesting you mentioned individual sovereignty - I was just thinking about exactly that this afternoon. And wondering how it is possible that God can be sovereign, and leaders can ACT sovereign, but shame on you for thinking you actually own yourself and answer for yourself, or that you have any rights, desires, goals, ambitions, thoughts..anything. You are not an individual with any sort of claim on yourself - makes you wonder how this nation was EVER founded…
We’re just supposed to roll over, play dead, and be spiritually fondled by others I suppose.
ICK..
So, today this guy I work in ministry with asked me when my husband was going to come preach on a Sunday morning at his church. (He has never met my husband and knows that my husband has never preached a Sunday morning message). When I told him I wasn’t sure when we could come but that we would he said “you’ve got to start some where,” and then followed with “well if your husband doesn’t want to do it I’ll just make you the pastor.” How’s that for trusting God? He didn’t ask me when we could come sweep the floor or teach Sunday school or earn trust in his congregation. Praise God, someone’s got it right!
Juli — fantastic point and a great question. Therein is their dilemma. They beat you down with the notion that God is sovereign, but when you try to act on your own rights, desires, ambitions, and thoughts, that is a bad thing, sin, pride, whatever, take your pick. Well, if that is true, isn’t it also true for them as well?
They know they can’t really go there so they make it about you and your imperfections. Last I checked, all human beings are not perfect.
Julie — just for you:
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
and I say it’s all right
Little darling, it’s been a long cold lonely winter
Little darling, it feels like years since it’s been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
and I say it’s all right
Little darling, the smiles returning to the faces
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
and I say it’s all right
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Little darling, I feel that ice is slowly melting
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been clear
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
and I say it’s all right
It’s all right
That is a good story Anony.
Anony…so…when are you gonna be the pastor? hahahah
you’ve come a LONG way baby! hehe
sounds like a great place to minister…and yes, someone finally has it right.
Dan…how about - “I can see clearly now the rain is gone”
I don’t know, not sure if my husband is looking for a Catherine Booth:o) But, I get to share the gospel and I get to relate on a whole new level with people and realize, hey I’ve been there too. And you know what, if I did “preach” one Sunday morning I’d be glad to sweep the floor after the service:o)
But Anony… after you preach to the big people you can be “ministry exclusive” you can leave the broom pushing for the peon’s. That is what happens when you get promoted.
I certainly don’t sweep the blog floor and lick blog stamps any more. Blog appositeness set me free.
Anony..Catherine Booth was, as you know, a wonderful example of a woman with personal passions and giftings, which she used ALONGSIDE her husband’s own calling and gifts. - her identity was not absorbed into his, demoted so his would prosper, etc…it is sick what SGM women think is godly along the lines of sacrifice..utterly pathetic.
I had a wonderful conversation with a woman from my former SGM church yesterday about how women need to do things for themselves, feel good about themselves, and stop apologizing for having desires, goals, and wants for crying out loud! She was in total agreement, she was always one who impressed me with her confidence and sweet relationship with her husband and family. Balance.
I’m so glad I didn’t marry an SGM man and lose my identity so that somehow he would have the courage and fortitude to man up. If a man can’t handle who God made women to be, then maybe they should stay single.
John, there won’t be any big time if I believe the things God is calling us to…no, we’ll be washing feet for a good long time.
Juli, I was once told (in the denomintation I grew up in) that a woman who wanted to be a minister (which I did) could not be seen holding hands or otherwise acting like she needed her man. Far left….far right…aka blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
The man who offered the preaching position to me yesterday also reminded me that a woman is to walk beside her husband not behind not in front. If she has to walk beside him he needs to walk beside her too.
Back to the broom pushing point…I don’t think that idea is all wrong (gotta start by pushing brooms). I think where it really gets off is this: someone is making you push the broom, lording over you, and otherwise authoritating your calling. A calling from God doesn’t need man’s approval or processing. I’ve seen first hand that when God calls someone there is a certain amount of individual broom pushing required by the one being called.
The question I would have is: Why is it so hard for someone already established in their ministry position to see when someone else has a calling altogether different from their own? Why do they feel the need to have that person push brooms in the already established ministry when there is much work to be done in the new work God is raising up?
And for heaven’s sake Why are we waisting so much time cleaning the floors when there are people who need to hear the gospel????? God made dirt and dirt don’t hurt!
Because they have to know if you have sound doctrine — and sweeping floors tells everybody everything they would want to know….
If you believe this, I have some land in Floriday to sell…
Here is the next crucial step. Here is where you tell him that you have 5 kids waiting at home. Since free work is the forum for interaction, have a list of tasks at YOUR house, that you would be glad to offer him the privilege of serving toward there completion.
I REALLY, really like this, John. <g>
LOLOLOLOLOL!! Gosh, this is GOOD!!
Hey, I might have a clean house too, John!
I’ll go fer dat!
hahahahahahahaha!
In a little,
Sopy
We could start a new business model:
Paster Enabled Righteous Purgation Services
PERPS for short…
PERPS…hahaha
how about this one:
Extrapolated Values Implicitly Lorded hehe
Anony..I’m thinking there is a big difference between God assigning the “broom pushing” whatever thay may translate to, and man assigning it. THe thing is, men who are called certainly seem to go through a time where they are being equipped for some future purpose, but they are not on “hold” because God is still working through and in them…a calling is not a destination to be achieved..it is the essence of a man (or woman)….it is not a part, it is the whole.
I have seen the equipping by the Holy Spirit in my own life that somehow He uses experiences, situations, ideas He is showing and teaching me for my use and benefit now, for later, and in the process He is also redeeming the past..now THAT is truly amazing to me. The process is fluid, like prophecy is in my mind. And that is the excitement and wonder of it all!
Juli, that’s just what I’m saying. It’s not the job of pushing the broom but rather who gives you the job that is the point of question.
anony…yup. I agree. And I doubt God gives the equivalent of broom pushing jobs to His anointed ones…no “job” could ever be considered as such if it is given by Him.
I think of Joseph, whose job in Potaphar’s house could be considered by some as broom pushing compared to being second in command of Egypt.. or David, whose shepherding job was considerably “less” than his role as King. Moses..whose second part of his life was spent in the desert as a shepherd as well, then ultimately resulted in him leading hundreds of thousands out of Egypt. These men were called and anointed from the beginning, they were not anointed as a result of their functions in life, and they certainly didn’t require the approval of other men to validate their callings or anointings. They were not somehow less anointed because of what they were doing or not doing…God was always working in and through them. Ever increasing outworking of the anointings, yes, but never less anointed in the process. Their faith was determining the extent of the individual manifestations I think.
John - chime in? I’m curious - what do you think?
Amen!
John-
Good post-it reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife. We talked about how some leaders can only “relate” through their church but not as individuals.
In other words, the church is their “love language”-but ask them about something personal and unrelated to church and they freeze up, or try and tie it back to “their” church. It’s a shame really…they could have so much freedom but prefer life in the box…
musicman - just wondeirng how you see this - why do you think they prefer the box to being free?
MusicMan
I have observed the same thing. Most preachers are 20 feet tall behind the pulpit and 3 feet tall when they walk down the street. Their identity becomes so entwined in the duties of their occupation they loose the ability or never had the ability to just interact with people.
I have said the often to my friends… the greatest favor God ever did for me was not put me in ministry when I was 20. And then he stuck me in every job he could the demanded I figure out how to just relate to people where they were with NO agenda. As a result I had to learn the skills that made it possible for me to connect with other individuals. Learning that self revelation, given intimacy, is a gift drives me to often tell people: “thank you for sharing yourself with me.”
It isn’t so much that I think leaders have an obligation to bear their soul to all comers. That isn’t a livable, desirable, or healthy standard. The problem lies in the double standard they place on people: an unearned intimacy that they never have to invest in.
As a result church leaders end up in an irreconcilable box. They can not have honest interactions so they are forever suspicious of anyone who really knows them and cannot have effective relationships. The relational fraud that I point to in this post has impact on the person in giving unearned intimacy.
But it also negatively impacts the one demanding it. The entire dynamic makes no one feel genuinely safe, genuinely known, genuinely embraced. It destroys the very basis for finding, discovering, and exploiting the skills and talents leadership is so desperate to vet, for the benefit of the kingdom.
There in is the real tragedy. These men end up eternally isolated by the very doctrine they think will GET them intimacy.
Juli-
Good question…I’m not really sure why so many leaders prefer life “in the box”, but here’s my best guess.
I think some leaders have been misled to believe that they as a leader in the church-must always be perfect in the eyes of others. They are afraid that any sign of weakness means that they are not a good leader.
Other pastors I’ve known were very needy people, who loved to be loved but really didn’t know how to build intimacy-so they ended up demanding it from others because they knew that it was something that should be in the church, but really didn’t know how to get there. Their intentions were good, but they bought into this idea without understanding that this goal (intimacy among believers) is still a process that takes time and unconditional love. And it’s not always easy to see whether or not your desired goal (intimacy) is being built. Kinda like farming in spring but wanting the harvest in a week instead of months.
This slow process starts to grow thin in a culture that seeks measurable results such as attendance growth and dollars given. Simply put-relationships built in the trust and love of Jesus are sometimes hard and not easy to quantify. How do you report to your denomination that love is growing in your church?
Other pastors I’ve known were just not that honest. I think they couldn’t imagine getting a job outside of ministry so they would play the part on Sunday. This is hard beacuse you end up hating the expectations of the church that you’ve built-while on the inside, you resent that you feel that people would reject you if you expressed your true feelings.
I lived across the street from a pastor who would preach loving his neighbors on Sunday and then be rude to his real neighbors the rest of the week. I know for a fact that he held many ideas (theologically and politically) that would have upset people in his congregation-but he acted as if they were too immature to handle the truth and he often spoke disparagingly of the very people who loved him and supported him financially and relationally. It was sad to see-he was a PK growing up and I think he felt that this was the only way to be a Christian, by being a full time leader. But his soul was not healthy and he was one of the rudest people I’ve ever known.
I think others just like being popular and the head of a crowd….
I like John, have thanked God that I never entered full time ministry. I realized, that I very easily could’ve become like one of the pastors I just described.
Not sure if I answered your question…but there’s my 2 cents at the moment!
musicman….
your preacher neighbor is exactly the reason why people hate Christians. They aren’t stupid - they see the reality - and the reality is, there is no real change, evidence of faith, power, or distinction between professing Christians and the “rest of them”.
I think the missing element for many believers (including and most of all, pastors and those in full time ministry) is that of personal identity - even when one has a strong relational understanding of God’s character it is not enough. When they know who THEY are however, in Christ and as a result of the gospel and anointing they possess as a result of their faith, then things start to pop in their lives. They begin to tap into the power of the anointing they have, they are able, as Peter says, to participate in the “divine nature” by virtue of the promises of God and responding in faith. These promises God has given are FOR us, ABOUT us, and we should be utilizing them to their fullest potential - which, coupled with our creativity, individuality, callings, and giftings, becomes an infinite potential.
How cool is THAT?
Pastors who burn out, stress out, and flake out are a product of the ideas they have adopted long before things began to fizzle and fry. Then they either backtrack to no avail because they assume the error is in their application of certain truths, when in fact it is in the actual beliefs they hold and have acted upon. Or, they peddle awkwardly forward, making more effort, trying various methodologies…all the while still working from a flawed belief system and continuing to produce results that don’t add up in their minds.
I agree Juli…our identity in Christ is the missing key in so much of what goes wrong.
I also agree that many times leaders assume if they just try harder or preach it with more conviction, that somehow they will get the results they are seeking…I read a quote once that basically said to be aware of those who talk a lot about community,
“If you love the vision you have for community, you will destroy community. If you love the people around you, you will create community.”
Great quote musicman. I’ve always thought people generally don’t like to be “preached” at all the time. People generally dislike being told what to do. Because if the message is constantly repeated and no measurable results seem to be indicated, they move on to the flashy thing. However, if you really live the life, show people by going first, people want to follow (and I don’t mean this in the negative sense).
tyrants ALWAYS have a vision - and it has nothing to do with people, except to the end that they will use them up to achieve the vision.
time for a spiritual revolution I’d say…
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We’d all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We’re doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
You say you’ll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it’s the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of CJ now
You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
Juli-
Totally chuckling at your Beatles re-write…
Dan-
I agree, leading by example is the best way to earn trust, anything else ends up being a shortcut to frustration.
Music man I think I’m gonna have to plagiarize what you said above. Your synthesis of the why’s and wherefores of the church leadership identity crisis is worth far more than two cents. I think you hit it.
Tyrants always have a vision… Amen Sister. Amen.
“I have vision, and the rest of the world wears bifocals.”
Paul Newman (as Butch, in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid)
hahahaha
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed!
HowDee, Ya’All
Juli: What a Hoot! Go Girl!
Musicman: Your two cents is welcome any time, any hour, any day in this century, Bro!
“Free Your Mind” -Matrix
John, See what you’ve done…
Now the Jackboots are gonna come…
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
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Christ Jesus has made us FREE!
Ya’All want some!
There is plenty ta go around!
If Christ has set us FREE, we are free indeed!
YaHoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
In a little,
Sopy
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus!
HowDee, Ya’All,
I’ze gots dis here toon gon’in round and round…
“I’m ready for the winds to change
I’m ready for a brighter day
I’m ready for the Son to shine, down on me!
I’m waiting for a song to sing
I’m looking for a brand new thing
I’m ready now to live a life –that I believe…
I want the world to turn because of love
And mercy to find each of us
Doing what we can –to just believe, yeah!
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus
Who fills me up and gives me hope
And brings about this change that’s in me!
Ah yeah, I’m ready, yeah!
You know I’m ready now!
I’m ready for the truth to be
Something that can set us free, yeah…
Does anybody still believe we’ll make it through?
I’m ready now to take a stand
To live life for more than myself
Tell me now, my friend, are you ready, too?
I want the world to turn because of love
And mercy to find each of us
Doing what we can –to just believe, yeah
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus
Who fills me up and gives me hope
And brings about this change –that’s in me!
Oh, I’m ready; yeah
You know I’m ready now!
I can’t sit around waiting for it all to change
It’s gonna take every single one of us doing what we can
There’s lots of fighting in this world but there’s so much loving, too
So take my hand, I’m ready now for you
I want the world to turn because of love
And mercy to find each of us
Doing what we can –to just believe
I want the world to know that You’re the One, Jesus
Who fills me up and gives me hope
And brings about this change –that’s in me!
Ah yeah, I’m ready, yeah!
You know I’m ready now! yeah, yeah, yeah
Lord knows I’m ready
You know I’m ready, yeah…
I’m ready for the winds to change
I’m ready for a brighter day…” (1)
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Knows da scriptures, & da power of God!
I’ze not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation ta everyone that believes! I’ze remembers, the preaching of the cross is to dem dat perish foolishness; but unto us, which are saved, — it is the power of God! Yeah! So that we, which are called, –Christ is da power of God, and da wisdom of God. Dat our faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in da power of God– by da word of truth, by da power of God, by da armor of righteousness!
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Christ in us, the hope of glory!
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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah!
A brighter day is here TODAY!
In a little,
Sopy
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Notes: (1) Adapted– Mac Powell, Third Day, Revelation: “Ready”
Sopwith… the best weapon to fight the jackboots is a loaded MIND.
Lock and Load kiddies!
LOL
John:
And a very sharp pen….
Lock and load …<chuckle>
being in Texas…the land of the loaded guns….having the ability to defend yourself is a fundamental right most people believe in and apply (to great extents!)…. tyrannical leaders always enforce a laying down of arms - when they tell us to “lay down your mind.”
Disarmed, there is no defense. And why would they want us to have no defense?
Because they are on the offense.
“…We have the mind of Christ.”
1 Corinthians 2:16
-Sopwith
Who’s got the power?
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HowDee Ya’All,
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While’s we’se wait’in fer our host:
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>snicker<
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnB-ILBTT7c
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Datz reminds me of someth’in:
“Take heed that no man deceive you…”
–Jesus
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In a little,
Sopy
Just past the url into the browz window and go.
click’in on it here doesn’t work.
Chow!
Wow, it’s been busy round these here parts. I’ve returned from the woods. Can’t wait to see the new post John.
Anony, you returned just in time to get teased by John, like the rest of us….as we wait for the Reform post to go up.
It’s April 1st - Happy National Atheist’s Day folks!
(the fool says in his heart there is no God)
Dis “fool” saz “I love Jesus”
doze dat count?
Happy April, Eveybudy!
Sopy
*twiddles thumbs and waits on Mr. Immel*
anony… you are a stitch… I am swamped… the new stuff is going up as soon as I can get to it.
peace… : )
anony…pour some coffee or tea and sit a spell..if memory serves, John said he’d post it Friday….
I’m going to be racing against Dan to make the first comment….although I have a feeling this upcoming post will utterly silence the crowds or bring them out kicking and screaming in defiance.
come to think of it, ALL of John’s posts do that..bahaha and that’s why we love to read along!
Sopy,
a good friend of our family says that all the time,
“Christ in us, the hope of glory”!
Love it!
>>>>>>>>>>mr. immel<<<<<<<<<<<<
::::::giggling:::::::::::
Good thing I got a new book to read in the mean time.
John is too busy practicing dribbling with his left hand…
Anony — what book are you reading?
Juli — Oh, just nevermind…
that would be the Distinguished Mr. Immel to you Ellie.
just messing.
you are great Ellie. Glad your out there.
Aren’t you the same guy always sitting around in your underoos? Distinguished is hardly the term I would use…
Dan..what? not up for the first comment race? Only one more day! Nanny nanny boo boo you can’t catch me! hahahaha
what?? you can’t be a distinguished underoos basement blogger??well..go figure..
John’s commentary is leagues ahead of the likes of Adrian Warnock and Tim Challies’ anyday…and besides it’s easy to be a lemming and have hundreds of other lemmings gather around you…..until you find yourself leaping off the cliffs of conformity. that is a bummer if you ask me. and not very original.
Juli — I think “underoos” and “distinguished” are mutally exclusive…
I hesitate to engage in this type of banter, only because I may insult your sensibilities (inferior as they may be according to SGM…..kidding, just kidding…..).
It is hard to be funny on an internet message board….
Ellie,
Gota love it,
“CHRIST IN US”, the “hope” of glory!
YaHooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
“Blessings upon the House of the “Distinguished” John Immel!”
;~)
-Sopy
Army of Ordinary People - Felicity Dale
Dan, as long as you crack yourself up on here…it’s all good.
I don’t know..you’d think Superman was distinguished, and HE had underoos, with TIGHTS to boot!
So I guess if you couple the underoos with super powers and save the world…you’re good to go.
Hey, come to think of it, that WOULD BE John! hahahahaah
ok… now I’m laughing lots. feed that megalomania baby….!!
ROTFLMBO
John, I think you need to create a special forum for Juli and Dan to go at it about your underoos. That seems to be a reoccuring topic. Does that make you feel vulnerable and exposed? Hahaha! You must be quite a humble man;o)
Anony..naaahh, he’s not REALLY humble…the underoos serve a purpose: to “balance him out” since he has super powers to save the world, doncha know? <giggling hysterically>
hahh…this is fun. Where else can you talk about roofies, underoos, tyrannies, oppression, church history, philosophy AND Monty Python all in one place?
Oh the mirth that Eric “Phenomenal” Simmons” has brought into our lives.
This has taken on a life of its own. LOL
gotta love it
Well what do you expect us to do while we sit and wait for life to quit happening so you can post a new post? Certainly you brought this on yourself;o)
Whew!!! Juli, I am glad you have a sense of humor — you need one in this day and age. And you didn’t even mention Star Trek. All I ever needed to learn I learned from Star Trek.
“Near as I can tell, Tribles are born pregnant.”
At this time, I don’t think I will mention the underoos again. I feel a great disturbance in the Force (and a very disturbing mental picture).
Anony, I do a lot of reading myself. I am a proud owner of an Amazon Kindle. Do you ever do any Fiction reading?
Dan..ditto on the visual image - although the visual Eric S gave originally was rather obnoxious in and of itself.
Anony..that book title sounds intriguing :) you just might finish it as we wait upon the Distinguished Mr. Immel to post..(hint, hint)
If I wrote a book I’d call it: Spiritual Slaughterhouses
I doubt it would sell many copies though..not exactly a title that is as appealing as “Your Best Life Now” is it? hehe
Juli,
“Spiritual Slaughterhouses”?
I’ze take da first copy, Ya hear?
…diz I’ze geta an autograph?
Hahahahahahahahahaha
Sopy
what can I say? Vonnegut inspired the title :)
I am sorry but you can’t get much haughtier than this comment -
“I submit that waiting for an Ah Haa! moment out of this bunch is a waste of time. Trying to manufacture an Ah Ha moment for this bunch is more than a waste of time. It is an exercise in futility. Maybe one day the SGM leaders will come on bended knee and honestly proclaim their treatment of you was wrong. Maybe they ask you for forgiveness. (If this overture is coupled with them declaring they are unfit to govern anyone ever again and committing to never stepping foot back in the pulpit) Maybe you should consider accepting their overture.”
For “THIS BUNCH”?
I don’t even speak with such disdain of my ex-wife who left me for another man. Author John Immel, seeks nothing of reconciliation but rather of hateful condescension.
There is a way to write concerns coming from a denomination without resorting to slinging mud and hatred. Unless the writer is no longer a believer in “The Peacemaker, Jesus Christ”, that is. If we are still Christians then our tone is to be civil and kind, rather than malicious and filled with hate.
Hiding behind internet code names rather than using ones name shows cowardice and does not allow for intellectual dialog. How do you know that “They Hurt Me” is not a pedophile who was removed from children’s ministry
or “I am Mad” wasn’t brought before the church because of an adulteress lifestyle?
As I have said before, my wife and I worked with an ex-Jehovah Witness support group for years, and our purpose was to help them get out of gripe rooms, who’s main purpose was to allow them to voice over and over their
mistreatment from the JW’s and back into a church where they could grow.
Have we been offended as members of churches (SGM and NON SGM)? Sure, and
we HAVE offended others much. Where there are people there will be sin.
I would much rather hear “I am free now and am attending a church where I am growing in my walk with Christ” than to see the constant daily berating of those we have loved and served alongside with for years. I will not go > so far to say that Satan enjoys this malignment, but I do feel it brings sorrow to Christ to see such anger flung about on an internet read by believers and non believers alike.
Paul Balluff
And the wise answer I got when I Emailed ST.com was
“Dude… if you are that offended…. then don’t read.”
The compassion in his response tells me to delete this site from my favorite places
Paul,
I guess now I know where you stood on that quote about the pastors standing in the very stead of God. Try Scipture next time.
John defends people, he cares. You don’t see that, but it’s true. He cares about those still in that system and those who have their lives screwed up because of it. So he’s bold–so what? I guess Paul was, too, when he told the legalists in the book of Galatians that he wished they’d imasculate themselves. (Has John been that haughty?) I guess teaching a gospel that really was no gospel was a pretty bad thing to Paul. And guess what–that’s just the kind of thing that SGM is doing…plus.
Blessings,
Bree
Paul… what are you trying to tell on me now? Sending posting the content of a private E-missive?
Hahaha… this is too funny. Open season, baby!
See here is the thing… It is true… “Dude… if you are that offended…. then don’t read.” Is exactly what I said. But you weren’t seeking, asking, or identifying a moment for compassion. So judging my response, based on this spurious standard is ridiculous. (This is SOOOO SGM methodology. Fabricate a standard and then judge by the fictitious standard)
You’re email to me was nothing more than a series of non sequiturs that I have addressed repeatedly through out this Blog. And since you haven’t demonstrated one whit of ability to follow or substantively refute what I have specifically commented on… what else is there for me to say to you?
And OH the irony: THAT was the paragraph that demonstrated my disdain for “this Bunch??” Hahahhaha…. Hahahahahah… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
OK… I am collecting my self now.
If you want to offer an argument If you want to offer a factual criticism… I’ll take a look and see what I have to say about it…
If not…
>shrug<
So the question remains… why are you here? If you are that offended… if you are so motivated to delete this site from your favorites… If what I have to say is that hateful, and erroneous, and deleterious…
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING ON?
But as I said in another post:
How is THAT for disdain!?
Paul, you said: “I am sorry but you can’t get much haughtier than this comment -”
you obviously don’t know John very well….what you described doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of his haughtiness.
bahahaha (too bad you won’t get that joke, but anyway…you’ve missed the point on everything else..so moving on…)
you’ve been playing in the arena of ideas, and your butt is being kicked in case you hadn’t noticed.
next time, bring your mind and some original thoughts.
now go outside and get some fresh air - that basement can be awfully stuffy…mom will call you when dinner’s ready
<snicker>
“Best Game In Town!”
HowDee Ya’All,
Hey, everybudy knows dat John’s gots da best game in town… > lots a clapp’in <
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Soss, Mr.Balluff, goes pick yas buggers someswheres else! hehe
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nanny nanny bobo…
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We’se gona follow Jesus,
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We’se not listen’in ta Mahan’ze NO Mo!
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Aske me If I care what yous a sell’in…
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Jesus did’nt.
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De_fend’in dem “white washed tombs”, shame on yous! Mr. Balluff!
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Jesus is kick’in Mr. Mahaney’s proverbial tail seven ways ta Sunday, fella,
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Bedder gets outa da way if’n yas don’t want yous proverbial tail kicked too!
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Jesus is com’in, fellas, bedda hide!
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YeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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Go John! Go!
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Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
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“Jesus, My Brother In Arms”
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Through these fields of SGM destruction, –baptism of great fire, I’ve been a watch’in all the suffering that they have caused…
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Jesus, my Brother in arms.
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As the battle rages higher, yet higher, and the hurt is so bad, –in the fear and the alarm, you did not desert me,
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Jesus, my Brother in arms.
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Thanks, Jesus. ;~)
Sopy
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And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
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And when he hath found His sheep, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
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You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, –that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: –that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. –Jesus
Sopy - sometimes you just really make me laugh
did you actually write “goes pick yas buggers?”
hahahahah
awesome.
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