but I steal it from him quite often because it is so good and right!

They are fallible.  Heh heh. But NOT infallible.  

You are right, as usual, Gracie.  If leaders would allow the Lord to “raise His own kids”  (go, Juli!), there would be so much more power in the church to bring in the lost.

I have rambled on the blogs about how I think some pastors, particularly some SGM pastors, are skewed in their thinking regarding their authority and function in the Body.  It always made more sense to me that pastors should be looking for those things stored up in each believer, fan those to flame, train and equip the saints, and turn them loose, not only in the local church, but anywhere the Lord would lead.  Doesn’t this seem a more effective way of reaching the lost, helping the poor, invading (for lack of a better word) business or political arenas, music, art, theater … or, in a nutshell, demonstrating God’s Kingdom in every facet of life?

I cannot understand, nor will I ever “submit” again to a man dictating to me what HE thinks is in my heart.  Sorry boys, but you guys are infallible, you often have an agenda and a very narrow view of what service to God looks like.  Too stifling.

In regard to our nation, John, I see what you are saying.  Sadly, the same commentary applies here but the repercussions are far greater. 

love the description of what’s ahead btw..in terms of the groundwork and ultimate realizations that will come

You asked where this fits into the Calvin/Arminian debate.  ; ) trust me … we will get there. 

I will eventually have to wade into all of that… but I’ve got a lot of groundwork to do first.  But after I do lay that groundwork… I suspect that, first you will be made uncomfortable, then you will be angry, and then… you will shout for a joy you did not dream possible. 

Actually, I am going to say that the current trend in American politics is the logical conclusion of cultural assumptions. 
 
The United States no longer defends the rights of the individual.  It defends the cause of the greater good.   It justifies taking from the individual with the moral premise of altruism.  Listen to our political leaders… they are no longer making policy statements, they are making moral arguments, advancing concepts like, sacrifice, and selflessness, overtly saying that individuals are selfish for seeking ends that benefit themselves.  They villainize those who take personal initiative without the express consent of those in governing power. 
 
They speak of predestination though they don’t use that specific word.  They speak of depravity as the moral predicate of ambition and self.   They advocate pain and suffering as man’s natural state and condemn all who do not share equally in pain and suffering.  With impunity they hijack Bible ideas and claim spiritual absolution for their moral failings all the while exploiting the sum of individual lives. 
 
Where else have we heard these ideas advocated?  I will let your lightning-fast minds ponder.
 
Notice: the justification of slavery is always the same:  predestination, moral depravity, suffering as the natural state of man, sacrifice is the highest human virtue. 
 
Go read the Christian defenders of slavery before, during, and after the civil war and you will see these themes pounded relentlessly from the pulpit. 
 
I am telling all who will listen… we are resurrecting the very doctrines that produce destruction and death and corruption.  We, the Church, are being swallowed whole in the mire of our own intellectual and philosophical bankruptcy. 
 
We love to claim credit for the US constitution and in the next breath preach doctrines that subvert the very premise:  Human equality means that all men are to be defended in their individual pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.  You cannot have it both ways.  Either man was created as an end in himself or man is a sacrificial animal to be bled to death by the howling masses. 

Canary..that is an amazing parallel to Harriet Beacher…I do think the recognition of suffering at the hands of tyranny – be it spiritual, social, political, whatever…is the beginning to freedom. Someone has to speak up – and that is the hardest part at times…keeping things in the dark allows them to remain, and grow darker.

Shedding the Light of the Truth on every aspect of our lives, individually, collectively…is the path to freedom, blessing, joy, peace, and life!

Great men and woman have fought throughout history for liberty, at all levels…and we benefit as a result. I want my children, my grandchildren, and generations behind me to be able to continue in the spiritual freedoms God intended for us to have in Christ, by faith, as we choose life and not death. There is much work ahead…and much reward.

If I am remembering my history correctly, President Lincoln said of Harriet Beacher Stowe (Uncle Tom’s Cabin) that her book helped to begin the Civil War, because it revealed the atrocities of slavery for the country to see (of course, there was also the sucession fight, too).  I think her story gave people the passion they needed to fight the horrors of people owning people.

Maybe blogging is our “Beacher Stowe” method of creating the passion needed by believers to “set My people free”!  If one,
19th century woman could have such an impact on our nation, imagine what a group of us could have on God’s nation of believers through cyberspace.  The heart of the Lord cries out, “Set My people free!”.

I OWN ME.  God gave me this gift, calling it free will.  As a Christian, I gladly give my life back to Him, but it is mine to give. 

I continue to marvel at the wisdom of our founding fathers.  They stated that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Intrinsic in this (extrapolating a bit here from a Christian view)  is the idea that each one has value, purpose and giftings given to them by God.  A healthy society is one in which, among other things, each person has the freedom and safety to pursue those treasures God has placed in their hearts – whether it be delving into the sciences or the arts or philosophy or philanthropy, etc.  God has deposited something in each one.  We find those treasures, cultivate them, and use them to glorify Him and find fulfillment or “happiness”.   Hand in hand with the concept of personal liberty also comes personal responsibility or self-government.  Democracy will not work well if each citizen does not take seriously his responsibilities as parents, students, workers, voters, etc.  – to be productive, self-governed members of society.  Even so, I believe our founding fathers knew well the weaknesses of human society and so included many checks and balances to hold each branch of government accountable.    This system, though it too is imperfect, is probably the best man will ever come up with.  Even the travesty of slavery was eventually righted due at least in part to folks believing that all men (and women!) really ARE created equal and that one man should never own another. 

We had a speaker from South Africa come to our church once.  This man had traveled the continent of Africa and had spoken many other places around the world.  He had gotten a spiritual feel, so to speak, of each place he had visited.  In regard to America, he said, when you arrive here, you feel like you can do ANYTHING!  It was a wide-open, the sky is the limit, go for it kind of atmosphere.  I loved that.  Freedom!  We sometimes don’t realize what we have here.   

So, the question is (as canary stated), why, when this is our heritage, would we ever give up these precious freedoms?  How could we willingly, without a fight, lay down that which was purchased for us at such a terrible price?  Purchased by the life blood of many good Americans.  Purchased by Jesus’ life blood.    

I state it again:  I OWN ME.  The state does not own me.  The church does not own me.  I do.  I take this precious gift of my life and yield ownership of it to the Lord Jesus.  He is the only one worthy of this sacrifice.

I am not sure how this fits into the Calvinism/Armenianism debate.  I have ideas, but that’s another topic altogether.  

So, as Bill O’Reilly would say, where am I wrong?   

So  perhaps it is ignorance of God and His ways that make us slaves to tradition.  I just know that I must keep on knowing Christ, and understand who the Father is, and allow the Holy Spirit to work in me.  It is so vital to my  life and liberty!

John, may I add that I am going to give you the greatest compliment I could possibly think of:  YOU MAKE ME THINK.

you said: We think, superstitiously of course, that being “under” someone’s authority will protect us from bad stuff happening to us.  Man, is that a rude awakening when you find out it isn’t true.

I think the same people in authority over us sell us this mindset so that we will 1) seek out such authority over our lives and 2) remain under it indefinately. But in order to do this they must maintain three things: 1) we need their covering (total depravity) 2) there is a threat we need to be protected from and 3) they are the ones qualified to do it

Divine right of Kings doesn’t fly so well anymore in the politcal arena…except in the Church it does of course where CJ and others assume such right because of their callings and giftings..um, and not the mention their gender..but who gave them this right? God? How do we know that for certain? Did CJ have a burning bush experience he failed to mention? Like your heirarchy in school…we rarely stop to ask these questions…we just keep getting bullied.

Christians have continued under this divine right assumption far too long…it’s silly. How can they live in a nation founded on principles of all men being created equal (and THAT is the divine right we do all have – right to EQUALITY among mankind) and yet chuck that logic and truth and submit to men quite obviously who assert themselves as superior to them?

I can see this mindset in a nation where the political system is heirarchical or a dictatorship..but in America? It doesn’t make sense.

It sure helps to know history.  I think it is amusing how the Protestants got around the equality of all by adopting “first among equals”.  It seems like, for ions, men and women have always wanted someone to lead them.  Isn’t that why the Israelites asked for a King? 

Maybe it does help us feel “protected” when there is a leader up front who will tell us what to do, and maybe save our booties from the enemy, in the meantime.  It sure clarifies the recent U.S. elections for me.  NOW I understand why a certain some-one (may his name be forever revered) was elected by half the country.  Half of this nation obviously doesn’t know their history.

It is interesting to shrink this “first among equals” down to elementary school size thinking.  Who decided that the “W’s” had to always go last in line?  Who was in charge of the school, and all of us little tykes?

Well, the principal.  But how did he get to be in charge?  The school board.  Who elected them?  Hmmm…I don’t know that one.  I’m sure we can follow this chain of authority all the way up the ladder.

Then, of course, there were teachers.  My third grade teacher by the name of Mrs. Teemer, would walk around the room with her long ruler, and threaten to “shake us baldheaded” if we acted up.  Who gave her that authority?  I guess, the almighty school board did.

There were the hall monitors, older kids, who got to tell us little runts where to go.  They got their authority from the teachers.

Don’t forget the bullies, who liked to boss around the weak and defenseless, taking our lunch money when they could.  Obviously, they assumed their own authority over those of us who were too small to defend ourselves.

My point is, someone gets to be “first among equals” because someone else gives them that authority (unless they assume it on their own).  In the church, we want a king, a protector, a leader to have faith for us, sometimes so that we can be lazy in our own faith.  We think, superstitiously of course, that being “under” someone’s authority will protect us from bad stuff happening to us.  Man, is that a rude awakening when you find out it isn’t true.

I believe that the Word of God is the standard by which to live.  In the word, Peter asked that leaders be chosen BY THE CHURCH to help serve, so that he could be freed up to preach about Jesus.  He said, “choose men filled with wisdom and the Holy Spirit”.  These men were not to be kings (bishops, popes, pastors, bullies), but SERVANTS, filled with wisdom and the Holy Spirit.

By the way, John.  I spelled “nonsense” wrong in the quote you used.  Ha!  Guess I need a dictionary.  By whose authority was that written?  Who decided how “nonsense” should be spelled?  Oy, my brain is trapped in a round-about…