To Reform or Not to Reform

Friday April 3, 2009 

By John Immel

I started on this article over two months ago, long before the current conversation on www.sgmrefuge.com with Protestant Knight (AKA ~John) advocating reform and Jim’s post Let’s take a poll (1) started on March 23 of ‘09. It has undergone substantial changes from the original drafts, but as a writer the time comes to abandon a project. That time has come for To Reform or Not to Reform. What started as a 1500-ish word post turned into this 24-page 9,500 word behemoth with end notes.

I’m a wordy sort…what can I say?

This is a Sovereign Grace Ministries (2) related post. While many of you dear readers have no connection with SGM directly and therefore may be inclined to skip this post, please don’t. The concepts within this post are related to the current trend in American history on the political and religious fronts. Indeed, these fronts are inseparable.

I will say this until everyone agrees with me: SGM is a bit player in a MUCH larger societal event. They are anecdotal for the resurrection of long since disgraced, corrupt, destructive, intellectual assumptions. But tragically, people have either lost sight of those realities, never knew them, have been bullied into accepting them, or are willfully ignoring the outworking of those assumptions.

Lots of material will follow. I am setting out to connect a lot of dots. It would be good to read To Reform or Not to Reform a few times. As you digest, visit related posts noted (end noted) throughout the document. I make shorthand reference to a number of concepts that I dealt with in greater detail in other posts. Follow the links and read those posts to help in rounding out the commentary.

Good blog posts are short-ish with narrow focus. This is none of that. This is a long one folks, and since the Internet is a hard place to read long bodies of text, let alone digest a detailed progression of thought, I decided to offer this as a PDF download.  (Click here) Distribute as you see fit: Friends, Family, SGM rank and file. Give the gift that keeps on giving, hilarity, food for thought, or…apoplexy.

>snicker<

Be forewarned, this post is not for the faint of heart or the faint of mind.

Peace out,

John Immel

********

To Reform or not to Reform?  That is the question.

Yeah, me and Bill Shakespeare…

I’ve been mulling, also known as canoodling, as I am wont to do over Sovereign Grace Ministries and their (apparently) endless string of tyrannies. Actually, better said, I habitually mull over spiritual tyranny and sundry jokes. At the moment, SGM just happens to be at the forefront of that particular preoccupation–the tyranny and the jokes. (You other tyrants I will visit shortly).

It is the cry of many hearts in the blogosphere that SGM reform. Many of you hope that the leadership in that bunch takes a good long look in the mirror and say, “Eureka!”  or “John Calvin!” or “I could have had a V-8″ or whatever they are inclined to say when they discover a thought not found in Sin and Temptation.

This assumes they like mirrors, which in my cynical olderness, I’m inclined to think not so much. Or maybe better said, they do look in the mirror, mirror, on the wall, and it affirms that they are the Fairest Wretch of them all. They knew they were wretched; they saw what they expected, so how can they be faulted for seeing their failings and therefore are utterly qualified to persist?

Hey, it is a twisted logic; but it is their logic.

Many of you possess a secondary hope:  after reading the blogs, the Rank and File SGMers might realize El Primo Doctrinal Mover and Shaker, CJ Mahaney and sundry Hommies haven’t done as much academic and intellectual rigor as they have let folks believe. If these Rank and Filers can SEE the doctrinal inconsistencies, maybe they will hopscotch on across the church threshold.

Reality is most people don’t care about intellectual or academic details. They see theological debates as a waste of time:  a truism that SGM leaders exploit when it serves their interest; meaning when it is their theology under scrutiny. How can you spend time quibbling over non-essentials? How can you hide behind “a veil of theological exactness”? This is why they don’t give one good rip if Jesus “screamed” the cry of the damned, (3) “Cried.” “Wailed,” “Hooted,”  “Hollered,” or just said “Ouch.” Don’t doubt me here. Theological distinctions only matter to this bunch if they are making the distinctions.

Furthermore, most Rank and Filers need to be absolved of the responsibility to think, so debates over details are on par with tooth extraction:  a necessary evil best left to professionals, masochists, or 24-year-old bloggers in their underwear. (Thank you so very much Eric “phenomenal” Simmons (4)).

SGM has people assigned to monitor subversive material, so I’m guessing they know the content of the blogosphere criticism. In brief review, the criticisms have gone like this.

  • Cult!
  • Well, maybe not a cult???
  • CJ is Pope.
  • Dave Harvey is selective with his source material.
  • SGM Sucks!  (But we love it.)
  • SGM doesn’t really have a plurality of leadership.
  • SGM Sucks!  (But we love it.)
  • Danny Jones is incompetent. (But we love it.)
  • SGM is presumptuous with the “First Among Equals!”
  • The Bible has better Polity models.
  • It is clear that the Bible says…
  • SGM has an amazing PR machine
  • SGM Sucks!
  • Why do People go to SGM?
  • The Cry of the Damned?? Did CJ really say that?
  • It is clear that the Bible says…
  • They did WHAT to Noel and Grizzly?????
  • Blah blah blah blah la la ….

Just so you know, I’m confident this doesn’t pass the ’so-what’ test. How can I be so confident with the Augustinian/Calvin/Kantian Epistemological Axis so firmly entrenched in our Christian Theology? I have this surety because I have special thought microphones strategically hidden in CJ’s office. And I can say he doesn’t think about this much at all. When he does, El Primo Doctrinal Mover and Shaker’s thoughts go something like this:

Calvin and Hobbes…  So funny… Reformed Theology…. So serious…  Lasagna …. So good.  Bloggers in their Underwear….  So what? …. Calvin and Hobbes… so funny…  Bill Belichick (5) … so not humble

And so it goes…

See, one thought in five. Well, I guess that is about 20% of the time, so maybe it is proportionally a lot of thought. But he still says, “So what?”

Uhhh… Errr…

So if SGM reforms what will they be … uh … re-forming?

The theme pounded out on the blogs is that a change of polity will do the trick.

To Polity or not to Polity? That is the question.

I am officially going to quit calling it polity. Polity is a word that carries its own mystic overtone in Christian minds; kind of an Uber spiritual event absent the obvious perils of human governance because GODDDD!  (Turn up the reverb) appointed IT. What is IT? IT is where we all link arms, sing Kumbaya, and polity with each other. Oh the Fraternity, Unity, and Equality!

Yeah, me and Robespierre…

Well, Polity is Government and Government is always force. (6) I don’t care how you want to dress this up, what lipstick you want to wear when you kiss me with those lips bearing Polity. You are really kissing me with the FORCE of government:  the collective power to dictate… something.

Hide the guillotine, and get the fire hose!

I will get to what we are dictating to whom in a bit. For the time being, bookmark this point:  Polity is Government and Government is FORCE.

I submit SGM reform is a pipe dream.

No offense to you faith folks who think I’m putting God to the test: All things are possible with God, and all that. Before you all tag me as a big downer, give me a minute to revise and extend my remarks so you can know exactly why I’m a big downer.

Let’s back up a minute.

Since most folks think that reform is a function of government structure, I wanted to get a better sense of what Sovereign Grace Tyrannies really wants in government. So, I hearkened to the posts on www.sgmrefuge.com where Protestant Knight and Jim talked about SGM government structure, also known as Polity, (7) by Dave Harvey. Mr. Harvey is a pastor, of one form or another, at what SGM calls Team Related Churches. I downloaded and read the PDF version (8) of the Polity thingy, browsed sundry blog posts by El Primo Doctrinal Mover and Shaker, CJ–you know, the one where he doesn’t allow comments–to see what I could find.

All writers want something–implicit or explicit–from you, except me, of course. Today I am the definitive altruist, exercising the ultimate expression of Kantian disinterest. My motives are utterly empty and selfless or maybe they are chicks and money like always.

>snicker<

If one can find what the writer wants, it is easy to understand why they write what they write. Sometimes the writer tells you what they want, sometimes their real wants are unstated, and sometimes they tell you but come at it from an angle.

So, what does SGM really want? Well, since Dave wrote the Polity thingy, the question should technically be what does Dave want? However, nothing comes out of SGM that isn’t reflective of El Primo Doctrinal Mover and Shaker, CJ Mahaney (and sundry Hommies) thoughts on the subject. So, Dave is SGM and SGM is Dave.

What does Dave want? Well, that isn’t easy to ferret out. He does want to give a “Biblical” theology of Polity.

He does want to offer up an apologetic (read: defense) of SGM collective “wisdom” the leaders have arrived at over the decades of leadership.

The Sovereign Grace Ministries apologetic stands upon a tripod of principles that lift and support our local-church government:

  1. The Principle of Plurality among Elders
  2. The Principle of the Presiding Pastor
  3. The Principle of Partnership with Apostolic Ministry (page 2)

He does want to illustrate why, in a non-hierarchical body of Christ, there are those who are “First Among Equals” (9)in a pyramid of authority.

“Thus, we begin with an assertion that will ground and guide this entire document. Local-church leadership in the New Testament was a shared endeavor. (page 3)”

And further on addressing the same point:

“The presiding pastor, or senior pastor, is a role drawn generally from the broad pattern of order resonant in Scripture…”

“While neither the pattern nor the application carries in itself sufficient force to sustain an apologetic for senior pastors, they unite to bring greater understanding of the role. Central to this understanding is the fact that the role of presiding pastor must always be based on the foundation of plurality.” (page 6)

He does want to give explanation to his “Reformed Brethren” why the polity structure of SGM is as viable as what they practice. Dave touches this theme on page 4, and then on page 8 he furthers the thought with this:

“Within the Sovereign Grace churches it was not uncommon, early in our history, for local-church polity to follow the Reformed model of coequal plurality, i.e. elderships unadorned with senior pastors. This was an instructive season, and has built in us a respect for all churches that endeavor to exalt Christ through a coequal eldership. Our experience, however, was less than God-exalting, and our “polity postmortem” resulted in the following conclusions: …”

Dave goes on to detail six effective departures from the traditional Reformed Practice related to SGM learned wisdom from said post mortem.

He does not want the official SGM take on Polity to be considered an essential.

“At the outset it must be said that the form of church government is not a major doctrine like the Trinity, the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, or the authority of Scripture…

“And church history attests that several different forms of government have worked fairly well for several centuries…” (page 2)

These are Dave’s stated wants for his Polity thingy. I didn’t notice that these ideas flowed from one to the next in any particular order. They just are. His Systematic Theology is full of the catastrophic flaws that come with using that academic practice for reading Bible.

If it matters, I have a degree in Systematic Theology. And while I had a real love for the practice, I’ve come to believe it has fatal flaws. And those flaws are at the heart of Christian tyrannies over the centuries.

I contend that Systematic Theology is a cross between academic proof texting and biblical shamanism. Wave a handful of verses that kind of sort of mention the idea you want to promote and Alakazam! Poof! We have a “Biblical Doctrine.” We have an AUTHORITATIVE idea. I know, that was a cynical comment, but it was really good.

Bible VERSES are a disembodied collection of words. It seems strange that I should have to point this out, but … whatever. Just because a couple of numbers sit in the margin to reference six, eight, or twenty words does not mean the words are remotely related to a Systematic doctrine. Nor does a paragraph necessarily represent the original author’s intent or principle teaching. And even more important, nor do those disembodied words represent overarching themes or broad stroke teachings throughout Cannon. Taking disembodied statements from book to book and compiling them like so many Legos to build whatever authoritative doctrinal point is fraught with all manner of intellectual pitfalls.

And Mr. Harvey’s Polity thingy demonstrates some WHOPPERS! As I read his Polity thingy I kept humming the Burger King theme song:  “Have it your way… at SGM now…”

But Dave Harvey is safe from any mass criticism. His arguments are a study in uninspired historical academic regurgitation. For most readers, he is close enough to the land mass of Protestant tradition as to not raise an eyebrow. Which he is quick to point out:  “There is little originality in Sovereign Grace Ministries; …”  (page 8) Oh, the irony in this sentence.

Dave is marginally creative in arguing the foundations of Protestant Papacy, but he comes at this governmental FORM at a sufficiently obtuse angle; citing enough other sources to successfully distribute the blame or credit. And he certainly never calls the doctrine Protestant Papacy, so if one is not really paying attention to the logical conclusion… >shrug< who is going to object?

Mr. Harvey doesn’t say anything scandalous, hedging against critical review by appealing to Non-essentialness — there “might” be other ways to govern a church. In the pursuit of the SGM Polity, Dave comes off as endlessly magnanimous.

So, what is the big deal? Is this a quibble over theological hairsplitting? Am I forcing you into the Theology Dentist Chair? Who cares? Many preachers crack open the Bible and identify similar assumptions from the book and teach some variation of these themes.

What is the big deal?

Here it is:  SGM doesn’t govern–they don’t FORCE with a magnanimous bone in their body. By frog-boiling increments, these men expand the definition of what is an essential doctrine by implicit or explicit demand to adhere to their considered judgments. (Mandatory Date nights? Husbands ordering food for their wives to demonstrate leadership? It is sin to have a Junk drawer because it is a sign of laziness? There is a punch line here, right?)

A massive disconnect exists between the veneer of their magnanimous scholasticism and the direct manifestation of their practice. So, this means something is lurking under the surface. Something is driving the interaction that ultimately skews the outworking: something implicit, some oblique assumption that folks really haven’t caught on.

Most folks believe that the problem resides in the SGM’s Charismatic papacy. CJ, at pyramid pinnacle passing out feudal favors to his spiritual henchmen, is the driving power of the problem.

While that may enable the tyranny, that is not the source of the tyranny. And here is the distinction:  Government forms–congregational, presbytery, et al.–are only structures for philosophical outcomes. What does it matter if you have one man at the top of the pyramid or 20 “First Among Equals” or a mob of congregants if what they are GOVERNING doesn’t change?

And what is government? Force. So the sentence could also read, “What does it matter if you have one man, a bunch of men, or a mob if what they are FORCING doesn’t change?”

The biggest reason the blog conversation doesn’t really pass the “so what?” test is the difference between REFORM and RESTRUCTURE. A different form of government won’t change the governmental objectives. The Monarchies of France and the French Revolution still used the Guillotine with equal passion. The form of government changed, the governing PHILOSOPHY did not. Bookmark this too because I will say more about this in a minute.

Sovereign Grace Ministries fancy themselves the best of the Orthodox and the best of the Charismatic. They have long since decided that the blend effect is what gives them their unique place. They have long since demonstrated the willingness to depart from the logical extension of their “orthodoxy” as it suits them. No academic debate exists. No logical debate exists. So, evaluating “Biblical” polity (FORCE) remains a debate about who has the “authority” to establish “authority.” Since they have decided they are uniquely authoritated to define authority … it seems strange to believe one can out-authority them or out-FORCE them.

Even if they changed the form of government, they would still be governing toward the same end. So, the question that needs to be answered is: what is the Sovereign Grace Ministries’ governing philosophy?  (10) What integrated ideas drive them to FORCE in all the varied forms that we see described with profound regularity from the blogosphere?

What is the driving governmental premise?

Okay… enough suspense. What is their driving premise? Here is the answer:  You don’t own you.

It is that simple.

Where do I get this from? I am going to show you. Remember what I said about Mr. Dave coming at this conversation at an angle? Notice this tucked into page 12 of his Polity thingy; Dave is discussing Romans 12:6-8.

The Greek word for “leadership” is “proistemi” (proistemi) “meaning…’to lead,’ ‘to direct,’ ‘to assist’… ‘to arrange,’ ‘to apply oneself to’.” 33 Curiously, the verb translated “govern” in the NIV is not present in the original language and was only added to clarify the application of “diligently.” According to John Murray, a more accurate rendering would be, “he that ruleth, with diligence,” 34 a translation much closer to the English Standard Version above.

Let’s track Paul’s progression of thought here:

  1. We all have different gifts (v.6a).
  2. Our gifts are the result of a prior work of grace (v.6b).
  3. The grace God has given determines the boundaries of our gifts and service (v.6).35
  4. Some have been given a distinct grace to lead (v.8).
  5. The grace to lead is exhibited by a “zealous and diligent concern” 36 (v.8).

Whatever Paul’s progression of thought may be, notice the implicit presumptions Mr. Harvey is advocating. His effective logic is:

  1. Our different gifts are given to us (not earned).
  2. Grace determines/necessitates boundaries.
  3. Leadership is God’s manifest boundary on gifts and talents.
  4. “Zeal” and “Concern” is tantamount to Leadership.
  5. Leadership is tantamount to Government.

And… say it with me now: Government is FORCE.

As a brief aside, I have always known I have what it takes to rule the world, (11) but needed an ironclad justification for demanding that one and all “Submit to my Authoritaaahh!” (A little South Park Lingo for you)   After reading Dave Harvey’s Polity thingy, I have finally found it. I have “zeal” and am “concerned” for the whole world. So now, you wretched sinners, bow your mind and then your knee! I am utterly qualified to demand your obeisance. I’m king of the–oops…  I am “First among Equals” for the whole world!

Ehem…

Anyway, Dave’s progression above is an oblique way of advocating “You don’t own you; the Leadership does.” God’s gifts are not yours to lay claim. Therefore, you are not justified in doing what you want or exercising initiative with those gifts. Since God limits you by grace, He limits you by LEADERSHIP because leadership is a manifestation of grace. As far as Sovereign Grace Ministries is concerned, LEADERSHIP means government. By the hallmark of their “Zeal” and “Concern,” they are distinguished to perform the appointed job of administering your life in God’s stead.

Remember I said bookmark this thought: “You are really kissing me with the FORCE of government:  the collective power to dictate… something.”  This is the something that SGM is dictating. They are dictating the sum of you. You are not free to take initiative on the sum of your gifts. And ownership is defined by the freedom to act, the freedom to exercise ambition, the freedom to exploit the content of your life. If you are not free to do these things, you don’t OWN your gift–you don’t own YOU.

I advocate you read CJ’s editorial, Standing in the Very Stead of God, (12) found on his blog. The underlying presumption of that entire blog post is that unique men are given the specific job of administrating the revelation of God to the people. God doesn’t speak to everybody; He speaks to some who deliver that message to the masses.

Beyond the horrific display of Exegetics or lack thereof in the post, the presumption should leap off the page and grab you by the throat. For those of you who have kept up with my commentary, this is the assumption of the Demagogues of Dictated Good.  (13) Because God so chose, a select few have been given revelation. To those who steward that revelation goes the exalted task of administering the lives and minds of those whom God has given. The concurrent doctrine that makes for a compliant body politic is pervasive depravity. You are depraved, and therefore, truth needs to be dictated. Ergo, you must rely on those who stand in the very stead of God to dictate truth.

Most folks lay down their minds (14) because they accept the moral premise of their own depravity and its implicit disqualification. They quit defending themselves and the right to the content of their own mind and gifts and substance. Defenseless people willingly accept “Submission and Authority” until it becomes submission to any assertion of authority. The doctrine becomes imprinted on the hearts of people until there are no personal boundaries, no personal ambition, (15) and no appeal for wrongs committed because no individual rights exist.

And this is the governing philosophy of ALL Destroyers. (16) These philosophical premises are what works in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every human atrocity.

Look at history’s tyrants. Listen to their slogans and speeches. Listen to moral premise. Listen to what they implicitly demand. Their polity is founded on the premise that God, the State, the People, the Collective own individuals.

History Lesson

Raise your courage and look. The Feudalism of the Dark Ages held the governmental philosophy of the Three Estates: a Christian Eugenics (17) –some pray, some fight, some work. To enforce the estates, the ethics and politics of the Dark Ages were notorious for utter brutality and human atrocity. In the West, this was a Christian age by any definition yet we have made a joke out of the philosophical outworking with comments like “I’m gonna get Medieval on your ass.” As I said above: the philosophical premises working in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every human atrocity.

The absolute Monarchies of Western History, the Divine Right of Kings, meant rulers could do no wrong because God appointed their actions from heaven:  the King owned all (people) because it was God’s will–the philosophical premises working in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every human atrocity.

Muhammad rose out of the desert with a revelation from Allah, who owned all, declaring the Infidel fit for nothing but bloody death. If not for the Christian opposition, the carnage that swept across three continents would have consumed the West. To this day, the governmental philosophy of Islam makes it the single greatest threat to the free world menacing daily to terrorize us back to the barbarism of the 7th century–the philosophical premises working in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every human atrocity.

The French Revolution occurred almost concurrent with ours, rising against cruelty and despotism of French Monarchies. Yet Robespierre shouted Liberté, Egalité, Fraternity for all the PEOPLE while blood ran thick and deep from the guillotine from those same people–the philosophical premises working in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every human atrocity.

It is no accident that the following words came from one of history’s most recognizable tyrants:

It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his people:  that the position and the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the community as a whole.

That above all, the unity of a people’s spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual…

This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture…the basic attitude from which such activity arises, the call to distinguish it from egoism and selfishness–idealism. By this we understand only the individual’s capacity to make sacrifices for the community for his fellow men.

Many could go to Church tomorrow and hear these words extolled from the pulpit and believe they have been encouraged to a sound truth. Certainly, the Lutheran Church of the Weimar Republic thought so, not realizing that these same words were the philosophical premise of Chancellor Adolf Hitler (18) that ultimately justified the destruction of roughly 11 million souls.

And Joseph Stalin, not to be outdone by his National Socialist adversary, is estimated to have destroyed between 20 and 30 million souls in pursuit of the Communist Workers’ Paradise predicated on the Marxist assumption that those who HAVE (substance) should be slave to those who do not (have substance).

German National Socialism and Soviet Communism had virtually no government structure in common, yet they both produced the same end. The governing philosophy in every instance is that:

  1. Men do not own themselves.
  2. Man is depraved and therefore needs to be dictated.
  3. Individuals have a moral and corporate compulsion to lose themselves, their gifts, their talents, their substance, to the statist/collective, the Church, the People, and the Greater Good.

Here is the source of all history’s rivers of blood, death and destruction: the philosophical premise that man does not OWN himself.

Make no mistake: this is the measure of serious.

It is no accident that SGM acts the way it does. They set out long ago to emulate historical doctrine because they believed that “orthodoxy” made their body of doctrine unassailable. It never occurred to them to check the “fruit” of those doctrines. It never crossed their mind to evaluate the outcomes those doctrines have perpetrated on humanity every time they have been logically pursued. They were too impressed with their ability to think big thoughts to hear a voice of caution coming from a snot-nosed kid who wasn’t impressed with their bald heads and Enlightened Geriatric Club (19) act.

Can you really believe it a useless historical fact that sinners were fed to the bonfires in Geneva? Do you think that burning Michael Servetus at the stake is an unfortunate event brought on by pervasive depravity? Do you think it mere political zealotry that leads Protestant Queen Elizabeth and her father Henry VIII to kill Catholics with various forms of dismemberment? Do you think it a mystery that Oliver Cromwell and the Puritans fought a civil war in the pursuit of doctrinal purity? Do you believe the burning of Witches is a theological accident of a few misled souls?

Naivete is not an endearing or effective trait.

Burning someone at the stake requires an absolute utter resolve to listen in excess of 20 minutes to the agonizing screams, babbling wail, the endless plea for mercy, and relief. The contempt one must have for human life, for human freedom to perpetrate such an act is absolute. And it must be a CORPORATE RESOLVE. You can’t privately barbecue a man alive. (For heaven’s sake, we don’t even do that to animals for the piteous torture.) The group, the collective, the congregation, the parishioners, the worshipers, the fellowship, must all hold the same contempt because they stand mute, idle, and impotent in the face of the atrocity. Such mass passivity in the face of manifest horror, pain, and suffering requires that the group hold the same philosophical assumptions.

How else can they be willing to stand and listen, stand and approve? They must hold the same assumptions as the person that commands the judgment, as the person who builds the fire, as the person who lights the fire. They must all hold the assumption that individual freedom, individual human life is subordinate to a superior principle–a dictated principle that trumps all other values.

The historic facts above have all been perpetrated because of the integrated ideas that I’ve repeatedly pointed to: Moral Depravity, Dictated Good, Man Does Not Own Himself–the philosophical premises working in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every human atrocity.

It is no accident that SGM finds itself repeating historic doctrines and emulating their logical outcome in the way they treat people. I know… I know… they are not burning people at the stake. Don’t be obtuse. A flaming stake is only a matter of degree and the logical extension of: “Do it because I said so.”  When Truth is dictated, it isn’t long before someone reaches for a lighter and justifies their action by saying it was for the Greater Good, because man is depraved, he is exercising an unholy ambition and “needs to be held accountable.”

When Truth is dictated, there is only one way for men to deal with men: Force. (20) They must manipulate with fraud or extortion. When that power fades, man must hold other men hostage to the threat of that which they love: their life or the life of another. And mystic despots take this one step further: they lay claim to affecting the afterlife. Not only can they kill your body, they can impact the destination of your soul. Most men cannot stand in the face of such threat, even though it is not provable.

As I said in the Gospel According to John Immel (21)

Chapter 3: 1-3

  1. All people act logically from their assumptions.
  2. It does not matter how inconsistent the ideas or insane the rationale, they will act until the logic is fulfilled.
  3. Therefore, when you see masses of people taking the same destructive actions, find the assumptions, and you will find the cause.

My words above are a summation of the power of Philosophy:  the actions perpetrated from a logical extension of a body of ideas.

For Sovereign Grace Ministries, everything else follows from here. What you have, the sum of your gifts, time and talents, is not yours to lay claim. You need boundaries on your life because you will fail to act righteously and justly with those time, skills and talents. God’s Grace sets boundaries; boundaries mean leadership. You don’t own you because you can’t know you. Ergo, you need someone to dictate to you what you can never know. So, you must submit to those whom God has given the unique power to know you so they can succeed in their ownership of your time, skills, talents, mind, and body. The content of their practice, the specific manifestations of their tyranny, follows the philosophical premises working in concert to justify any and every governmental wrong and every spiritual atrocity.

  • Their relentless defense of Pastoral infallibility. (As Noel (22) and Grizzly’s story shows.)
  • Their twisted use of the Matthew 18 ethic. (As every story in the Blogosphere shows.)
  • The ridiculously heavy-handed authoritarianism. (As the Chesapeake (23) story shows.)
  • Their redefinition of gossip and slander.  (You are not entitled to know anything they don’t want you to know or have an opinion they haven’t given you.)
  • Their institutional paranoia.  (Illustrated by pervasive pastoral kibitzing with gutless wonder care group leaders to find those who don’t toe the pastoral mark.)
  • Their relentless demand on Singles to minister.  (Be Single in SGM and know what it is to NEVER have a life outside the church. You are not FREE to say NO.)
  • Their universal distrust of those people in the pews.  (As shown from their micromanaging of the smallest life detail.)
  • Their treatment of women as intellectual and sexual subordinates. (SGM wives gotta put out on demand and carry no intellectual objection in their head.  Crude, but so very true, just ask them.)
  • Their amazing PR machine. (24) (Is it really a mystery that they have an entire propaganda machine to spin for the masses? Every tyranny on the planet relies on the power to filter ideas and keep people from getting the details.)
  • Their utter affront when you exercise any initiative of thought, gift or calling. (Don’t you understand that Leadership has the prerogative to dictate the content and course of your life?)
  • Their rabid displeasure when you fail to devote absolute trust to their judgments. (How dare you distrust us… we are empowered to shepherd your soul.)

Every single last one of these examples is ultimately a fight over some facet of who owns whom:  a carrot and stick to enforce the ownership of time, talents, gifts, body, and mind.

Commitment to the Highest Truth

It is often asked by those observing this unfolding drama with Sovereign Grace Ministries how they can hear the mass criticism and not realize they have a problem. For all their advocacy of humility, how can they fail to approach the onslaught with that humility?

Here is my answer. I submit that SGM leadership sees this as a test of their commitment to higher truths. They see the blogosphere condemnation as a manifestation of persecution for their tenacious stand, for their courageous determination to arbitrate the dictated truth of which they have been made steward. They see their humility expressed in the patient endurance.

To that end, they see the barrage of criticism as invalid. They may have some remorse on specific incidents because the public outcry is embarrassing. They may decide to “Reconcile” with the moral relativistic wand of pervasive depravity:  “We are all sinners saved by grace and as your leader, I must remind you we have an opportunity to practice forgiveness today.” (And forgiveness means taking down whatever bad thing you’ve said on the blogs) They may believe they need to say, “I’m sorry,” but at no point do they see their actions as disqualifying. To the utter contrary, each conflict is an affirmation and a test of their commitment to God’s higher truth.

This necessitates that they see the mass, public condemnation of their practices as presumptuous and self-disqualifying. They take no real action toward interior remedy because they think the problems lie from without. You have failed to make their job a joy. You failed to adhere to a sound biblical teaching that they are morally on the hook to defend, advocate, and enforce. The hurt feelings, the spiritual collateral damage, the individual pressures that arise out of conflict with them are merely signs of selfishness and sin and the natural consequence of failing to embrace the higher truths of their sound teaching. In light of eternity, how could these momentary light afflictions be of any real consequence?

If you only understood that you don’t own you. If only you understood that you have been mandated by God to submit the entirety of your SELF to their care, the conflict would not exist. You don’t own you, so how can you object to a violation of your personal boundaries, aspirations, wants, and desires? It is all sin, and they are doing God’s work by standing in the way of your determination to carry out your sinful self. The pain and suffering is merely the outworking of God’s discipline.

I am going to participate in some self-plagiarism.

I wrote the following in my book Blight in the Vineyard: Getting free of the Myths and Tyrannies of Sovereign Grace Ministries. I self-published this work ten or so years ago when they were People of Destiny International, with the mother church of Covenant Life Church, affectionately referred to as PDI/CLC. God knows if Blight will hit mass production. Anyway, this is what I wrote on the point of reform those many years ago, and it fits nicely here.

For all the reasons we have already discussed, their method and practice affirms their doctrine, and their doctrine affirms their method and practice. Go to them to reconcile and find yourself embroiled in an endless effort to justify the content and conduct of your life. Seek to emulate the Matthew 18 ethic (25) by taking another person with you to establish “every word,” and they accuse you of gossip and slander because you spoke to someone not directly associated with the conflict about their error. Take it to the Church, and they refuse to be accountable to the questionable character of the masses.

These men are in an intractable position.

Tell them they are wrong and, in their mind, you persecute them. Prophesy from God about their error, and they dismiss the words as the ranting of a self-appointed Prophet. Preach something contrary to “Orthodoxy,” and they flip out their list of the “Nine Enemies of Truth.”

To the feeble-minded this is all very heady stuff.

PDI/CLC has been obsessing over Sound Doctrine and Reformed Theology in their own paranoid way since 91-ish and nothing has registered to arrest their descent… yet. Or maybe I should say that whatever God has done to arrest their intellectual progression has not or did not register.

But let me ask this. What is there for God to do? Inflict the leaders of PDI/CLC with some catastrophic disease? What does that do but affirm to them their doctrine of suffering? Maybe He quits sending them money and they have a serious financial crunch. What does that do but affirm to them their doctrine of suffering? Maybe He has people leave the church that have been key member for years. What does that do but affirm that they are preaching hard truth and not everybody can receive it?

Oh, and get this Irony of Ironies: in the very next breath they will point to church growth as a sign of God’s validation. If people leave, it is hard truth and cannot be received. If people come and they grow, it is God’s validation on their truth.

Gag me.

Hey Dave Harvey, where are your mental reflections?

Like I said, their position is simply intractable. They cannot hear anyone who is not their own, and their own would not dream of dissenting with CJ.

REFORM vs. RESTRUCTURE

It doesn’t matter what governmental form in which this premise is housed. It doesn’t matter how many different government styles one finds in the New Testament. The need for government, the need for FORCE, is related to the premise of ownership of brothers and sisters.

I told you to bookmark this idea:  in the French Revolution, the form of government changed, the governing PHILOSOPHY did not. The French Revolution brought about an absolute restructure of government from the Absolute Monarchy to Democratic rule. But both structures used FORCE with equal passion to compel compliance. They exchanged the Divine Right of Kings with the Absolute Right of the People and proceeded to behead any who did not abandon themselves to the collective.

This is why there is no REFORM in RESTRUCTURE. So, the restructure of SGM is irrelevant. Sovereign Grace Ministries will accept any government model that sustains their assumption:  men do not own themselves.

Their history bears this out. Every evolution of PDI/CLC/SGM has played to whatever body of thinking affirms their capacity to rule by proxy the minds, actions, and content of men’s lives. They could transform their governmental model tomorrow to democracy and they would still perpetrate the same fundamental tyranny because the model would be in service to the philosophy–the interrelated ideas that drive their actions.

It is important to realize these men are not driven by an intellectual integrity. They are driven by an authoritarian integrity. Their ideas are in service to their authority AND their authority is in service to their ideas (which is what makes most of their arguments so circular). Their ideas validate their authority and their authority dismisses any scrutiny of their ideas.

This is why all of the blogosphere Theological pontificating is irrelevant to Sovereign Grace Ministries’ leadership. For all of their vaunted intellectualism, they cannot be moved by a progression of thought: they cannot be REFORMED in their mind. They are stewards of Dictated Good. Truth is dictated, not the product of integrated non-contradictory thinking. No intellectual persuasion can be had.

So, non-essential doctrines are a license to believe what they want, which is precisely what Dave Harvey’s Polity thingy shows as he picked and chose the historical sources to justify this sentence: “Our experience, however, was less than God-exalting, and our “polity postmortem” resulted in the following conclusions: …”

Conversely, essential doctrines are inarguable because disagreement with them is rooted in deception. And being utterly consistent with T.U.L.I.P. (26) if a man is deceived–if a man is blind to the Dictated Truth–it is because God wants it that way. Why bother with an argument?

Make no mistake, dear reader. There is no REFORM with these wicked premises. There is no RECONCILIATION with this intellectual evil. “You don’t own you” is their governing principle. No REFORM exists because we are confronted with this irreducible principle: they own you by proxy. To concede this point is to be served with Mint Jelly. (27)

Do you envision this “Apostolic Team” saying, “Oops. We had the truth, but now we have a better truth.”? How many times can a group of men pound the pulpit and insist they have found the highest dictated truth and remain credible?

If Sovereign Grace Ministries ever changed these governmental assumptions, they would, by definition, cease to be who they are. They flirted with these premises for years as Gathering of Believers, as Take and Give, and as People of Destiny International. Every evolution of their organization has been in service to increasing governmental control. (Notice their participation in Shepherding in all its varied forms.) But in the past, some part of their thinking still held out that people had freedom to pursue their life and the content of their calling. But eventually, the historic Leaven of “orthodoxy” took root and these men pursued that body of ideas to its logical extension because it affirmed their governmental premise and justified the ultimate goal of their practice.

The name change from People of Destiny International (PDI) to Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) marked the point of no return. It marked their utter commitment to the philosophical assumptions:  Moral Depravity, Dictated Good, Man Does Not Own Himself.

There is no retreat from where they stand. The SGM leadership can only recant and disintegrate. And by definition, the Beta males who hold positions in the SGM pecking order based on the tyrannical assumptions handed down by the Alpha males have disqualified themselves as leaders by failing to resist the evil premise that put them in office. And those gutless wonder Care Group Leaders, the SGM Brown Shirts, that use Spiritual Roofies (28) to gain insider knowledge for the express purpose of informing on the spiritual proletariat for failing to toe the pastoral mark… don’t even get me started.

RESTRUCTURE is irrelevant. No REFORM is possible.

The Warm-up Round

For those timid readers lurking about on the blogosphere, you need to understand that this is the warm-up round. SGM is a bit player in this unfolding drama resurrecting historic doctrines that oppress people. Our current culture prevents them from FORCING with the threat of overt physical harm.

(Some of you having suffered physically might debate this.)

But our culture is trending in this direction. There are those on the public stage advocating the premise that you don’t own you, and governmental entities should be empowered to FORCE you. You can find this governing premise advocated from far too many church pulpits, from the freaky Charis-costal (29) gathering to the most staid Main-line denominational church, cable news networks, and political speeches.

By land and by sea, Tyranny is here. Tyranny is here.

This is why there are no “Reformed Big Dogs” (30) or “Charismatic Big Dogs” coming to apply brotherly accountability to the Sovereign Grace Ministries phenomena.

Not that SGM would ever consider lowly, unlettered, experiential Charismatic “equals” in the smallest sense.

And “Charismatic Big Dogs” for all of their talk about “covering” and “oversight” avoid actually doing any covering and oversighting, because they are really, really busy guarding the Prophecy mic, trying to make sure everyone knows that modern day Apostles actually exist, and calling angels to come do … stuff.

>shrug<

(Just close your eyes fellas and wish hard: “We really do exist, we really do exist, we really do exist.”  And click your heels together. You will get home safe.)

So they won’t be coming to the party.  But don’t sweat their absence, the women and children (31) are carrying the fight just fine.

Before someone trots out that Reformed Leadership in, the U.S. is ignorant of SGM. Or that Reformed Leadership in the U.S. is ignorant of the ongoing criticism by masses of blog commentators and venues of condemnation… Are you sure you want to advocate “ignorance” as a defense? How cute is that?

If leaders of other movements aren’t vetting their ministry partners, what does that say of the due diligence? What does it say about a ministry who will demand submission and authority,  (32) claim covering and oversight (33) from the pulpit and fail to inspect ministries that share their stage?

Ignorance would really be no different than incompetence! My advice then: if you are a part of these “Reformed Big Dog” ministries, and your leadership is demonstrating that extraordinary measure of incompetence… RUN!

So, if one does not like the incompetence explanation, that only leaves one real option: The “Reformed Big Dogs” are fully aware of the growing list of criticisms, and it doesn’t pass their “so what?” test.  Which really means that they fundamentally agree with the content of Sovereign Grace Ministry governmental philosophical assumptions: Moral Depravity, Dictated Good, Man Does Not Own Himself.

And I quote myself in part from above:

It is a CORPORATE RESOLVE. The group, the collective, the congregation, the parishioners, the worshipers, the fellowship, must ALL hold the same contempt, because they stand mute, idle, impotent in the face of the atrocity. Such mass passivity in the face of manifest horror, pain, and suffering requires that the group hold the same philosophical assumptions.

How else can they be willing to stand and listen, stand and approve?

They must all hold the assumption that human freedom… human life is subordinate to a superior principle–a dictated principle that trumps all other values.

The “Reformed Big Dog” ministries are of the same mind. The content of your life is to be sacrificed on the altar of their considered judgments. If they do good things, it is as it should be. If they do bad things, well, “Oops, forgive me because we are all just sinners saved by grace.”  The measure of the carnage is irrelevant because the governmental premise remains: Moral Depravity, (34) Dictated Good, Man Does Not Own Himself.

I expect that those “Reformed Big Dog” ministries reading this paper are now agitated a bit, indignant that I would dare lay this on their heads. With each paragraph, they are rattling off in their minds a list of teachings that encourage their flock to, on some level, go seek God and take initiative on their own. The foundation of their defense will sound something like this: “We must uphold standards and provide limitations.  We are appointed overseers and take care of A, B, and C but we expect believers to go do H, I, and J. The people are responsible for themselves. We don’t advocate the extremes of what SGM is doing.”

Dear reader, don’t fall for this. It is subterfuge. This is really a debate over HOW MUCH of you they own: 2% to 100%? It really doesn’t matter.  Doctrines that successfully persuade, successfully conclude that they own ANY of you, and the battle is already lost. Because every other subsequent argument becomes about what ownership looks like, and that line always creeps.

As I said above:  ”They don’t govern–they don’t FORCE with a magnanimous bone in their body. And, by frog-boiling increments, these men expand the definition of what is an essential doctrine by implicit or explicit demand to adhere to their considered judgments.”

This is the reason that the socialists usually end up losing to the communists. The socialists say they own 50% of a man; the communists say they own ALL of him. The only thing that is left is who will commit the most atrocity; who will follow the logical extension of their philosophy to its effective conclusion. The only thing left is to find out who will use the most FORCE to achieve the fullest end of their philosophical premise.

As of now, SGM is just more consistent with their foundational principle. If they are to be applauded anything, it is that they are more purely diligent with the cause and effect of their governmental premise. They have successfully mastered an ironclad corporate culture that organizes the smallest pastoral conversation. This is the measure of their commitment, a gauge of their determination to take action.

As of now, most other “Reformed Big Dog” ministries are just pretenders flirting with the fringes of the most evil governmental premise ever conceived on planet earth.

Leaven is yeast…

Yeast unchecked produces fermentation…

Drink deep of the spiritual Mojo juice and become intoxicated…

If the “Reformed Big Dogs” ever give themselves over to the intoxicating, rabid, heady tonic that these philosophical assumptions universally create…

If they carry these intoxicating, rabid, heady, philosophical assumptions into the political arena…

If they succeed in persuading a compliant body politic, a mass of people who have laid down their minds such that they are successful in joining the power of civil government with their Mystic Despotism….

I shudder to think….

The Political and the Religious (35)

We are inundated with this governing philosophy on all fronts. In the last ten years, America has made some drastic changes in the founding ideals that define our culture and life. The entitlement mentality is speeding us down the path to collectivism with ever frightening speed. It is no wonder we fail to resist the premise. Most people don’t know they should resist. And those who do resist don’t understand the source of the issue, the philosophy behind the driving moral and social demand. And those who finally do openly resist instantly suffer rebuke and rejection and attack.

Most people do not sustain an inner moral clarity to stand in the face of such onslaught. So they hem and hedge, offering bromides about brotherly love and advocating some brand of Rodney King Christianity: “Can’t we just all get along?” They assume we are in some gentlemen’s disagreement, and if we just comported ourselves with decorum, we would be able to negotiate a peace.

This is not true. Historically, this is the ugliest street fight man has ever engaged. This is the philosophical nuclear war of human existence.

(And people get nervous if you are snarky?? I do sooo love irony.)

For the first time in American history, we have granted mystic status for our governmental leaders–leaders too big and too Messianic to suffer criticism. It is no accident that the founding elements of history’s tyrannies are being openly advocated.

God help us when the Demagogues of Dictated Good join History’s Hitlers. When the civil bonfires of Geneva join mystic despotism, humanity is plunged headfirst into blood. Tyranny floods from the civic and spiritual front, driving all men to worship at a cult of death that only serves one purpose: enslave the minds of men or destroy those who refuse compliance.

This is the Essence of the Leaven of the Pharisees. And it is that very Leaven that joined the religious leaders of the early 1st century with the governmental power of Rome to crucify a seditious sect leader called Jesus.

Make no mistake. This is precisely what Jesus warned His followers to beware. And it is this very Leaven that marks the whole of Church History.

It was no accident that the Lutheran Church misunderstood who they voted Chancellor: they shared his governmental philosophical premise that man does not OWN himself. And it wasn’t long before Lutherans traded one symbolic cult of death for another: the Cross for the Swastika. And then they stood by helpless in the face of the carnage.

How many of you stand helpless in the face of the spiritual carnage being discussed on sundry blogs? How many of you stand mute while you see the metaphoric bonfire kindled for your friends as they walk through a conflict with church leaders determined to govern to the higher truths of “Sound Doctrine” and the “Local Church,” “submission and authority,” and “Church Discipline Leaders” who dismiss objections to mistreatment with the moral relativistic magic wand of pervasive depravity; we are all just sinners so you must forgive, forgive, forgive?

How many of you are guilty of ignoring their cries of pain and suffering because you stood approving?

Dear Timid Reader: if you can’t speak out now, how will you be able to speak out when the spiritual tyrants build a bonfire in your name and turn you into an honorary S’Mores?

Who owns Whom: That is the Question.

[1] Let’s Take a Poll http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/03/23/lets-take-a-poll/

[2] Sovereign Grace Ministries http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/ a ministry based out of Gaithersburg, Maryland with churches scattered around the globe. The leaders of this Group is a CJ Mahaney, former ministry partner of Larry Tomczak. For further information, visit their site for a list of people and their respective roles.

[3] For background info on this doctrinal debate, google (CJ Mahaney + Cry of the Damned)

[4] Eric Simmons comments and response http://spiritualtyranny.com/musing-in-my-underoos/

[5] Link to CJ Mahaney’s comments on Football Bill and commentary  http://spiritualtyranny.com/bill-belichick-and-other-lessons-in-sillyness/

[6] What Government is http://spiritualtyranny.com/speaking-of-church-polity/

[7] Sovereign Grace Perspectives: Polity, Dave Harvey 2004, Sovereign Grace Media, 7505 Muncaster Mill Road, Gaithersburg, MD 20877-3814.

[8] FREE Download http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/Search.aspx?Keyword=Polity&ByName=false

[9] “First Among Equals” is a reference to the Latin primus inter pares http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_inter_pares

[10] Humans are the sum of their collective ideas: http://spiritualtyranny.com/not-so-vain/

[11] My plan to rule the world http://spiritualtyranny.com/the-plot-thickens/

[12] Editorial Post: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Blog/post/The-Preacher-Standing-in-the-Stead-of-God.aspx

[13] Defining Insanity and the Demagogues of Dictated Good: http://spiritualtyranny.com/defining-insanity/

[14] You are guilty and will accept any judgment given, any idea offered. http://spiritualtyranny.com/lay-down-your-mind/

[15] The government needs a compliant body politic http://spiritualtyranny.com/oligarchy-of-mediocrity/

[16] The Destroyers Rise because we let them http://spiritualtyranny.com/from-whence-the-destroyers-cometh/

[17] Collectivism: Historic Destructive Force.  http://spiritualtyranny.com/borgification-of-the-church/

[18] Adolf Hitler: 7 Oct 1933.  You ever heard these words in Church http://spiritualtyranny.com/what-about-individuality/

[19] Coined phrase: find the definition here: http://spiritualtyranny.com/definitions/

[20] I deal with the force of ideas and the force of violence further in this post. http://spiritualtyranny.com/dispassion-to-avoid-distortion/

[21] My Gospel is being written. http://spiritualtyranny.com/gospel-according-to-john-immel/

[22] Read the post and the comments.  LOTS of information in this incident. http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276&cpage=10#comment-12540

[23] This post begins a series of posts addressing the Ester and the Chesapeake story. http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/

[24] PR at its finest.  http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=71

[25] I am referring to the method of conflict resolution that Jesus advocated in Matthew 18.

[26] The acronym: T.U.L.I.P. is used to condense John Calvin’s Systematic Synthesis of Christian Theology.  Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints.

[27] People are sheep. Shepherds protect sheep. But the reason they protect sheep is to be eaten later. http://spiritualtyranny.com/pass-the-mint-jelly/

[28] Unearned Intimacy http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-roofie/

[29] Definition of Charis-costal.  http://spiritualtyranny.com/definitions/

[30] Reformed Big Dog and Charismatic Big Dogs is my way of referring to major ministries of a particular theological ilk and corresponding leadership in American Christianity. Reformed Theology is the predominate body of Christian thought that came out of the Protestant Reformation. Charismatic refers to a Christian movement that started roughly 60 years ago and emphasized the gifts of the spirit: speaking in tongues, healing, demons, et al.

[31] Women and Children First http://spiritualtyranny.com/women-and-children-first/

[32] http://spiritualtyranny.com/the-myth-of-accountability-and-team-leadership/

[33] http://spiritualtyranny.com/the-very-important-things-of-blog-apostleness/

[34] The soil of moral relativism.  http://spiritualtyranny.com/keen-eye-on-the-funny-guy/

[35] Why is it that the church never ends up on the right side of human freedom.  http://spiritualtyranny.com/ecclesiastical-establishments/

Share and Enjoy:
  • Digg
  • Sphinn
  • del.icio.us
  • Facebook
  • Mixx
  • Google Bookmarks
Filed Under Incompetent Masses, Sovereign Grace, Universal Guilt

Comments

439 Responses to “To Reform or Not to Reform”

  1. Sopwith on April 3rd, 2009 2:04 am

    John you said:

    “I expect that those “Reformed Big Dog” ministries reading this paper are now agitated a bit, indignant that I would dare lay this on their heads.”

    Nah. 

    Wishful think’in…

    Theys be too busy out back with God’s little lambs on the barbe,

    and the parking lot is full…

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

    In a little,   ;~)

    Sopy

  2. Sopwith on April 3rd, 2009 6:43 am

    How do you “Reform” “something” that is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation, that has no members, that has declared itself essentially non-religious, when it (SGM) in fact technically masquerades as a church that bears “The Name Of Jesus” ?
    Has it has not been said of old:
    “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another…”
    -Isaiah 42:8

  3. Ellie on April 3rd, 2009 7:06 am

    Not even in the “Name of Jesus” anymore…

    now it’s “the Savior”, the “Christ”, the “Lord”, the “Cross” - not saying that Jesus isn’t our Savior and Lord or the Christ who died on the cross, but now we can KNOW the *FATHER*, through our BROTHER *Jesus* because the *Holy Spirit* guides us into all truth.

    “And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a cripple, by what means this man has been healed, be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    “Peter focused on the NAME of Jesus. “There is no other NAME under heaven by which we must be saved.” He is saying something more than that there is no other source of saving power that you can be saved by under some OTHER name. The point of saying, “There is no other NAME,” is that we are saved by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus. His name is our entrance into fellowship with God. The way of salvation by faith is a way that brings glory to the name of Jesus. Peter says in Acts 10:43, “Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” The name of Jesus is the focus of faith and repentance. In order to believe on Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, you must believe on his name. That is, you must have heard of him and know who he is as a particular man who did a particular saving work and rose from the dead.”

    http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1991/742_There_Is_Salvation_in_No_One_Else/

  4. Ellie on April 3rd, 2009 7:30 am

    “This is why there is no REFORM in RESTRUCTURE.   So the restructure of SGM is irrelevant.  Sovereign Grace Ministries will accept any government model that sustains their assumption:  men do not own themselves.”

    You nailed it, John. THEY stand in the VERY STEAD OF GOD, our hearts are desperately wicked and deceitful, and only the leadership can hear God. There is no priesthood of believers and they, SGM, are the mediators between God and man - NOT Jesus. :/

  5. Ellie on April 3rd, 2009 9:11 am

    “The doctrine becomes imprinted on the hearts of people until there are no personal boundaries, no personal ambition, (15) and no appeal for wrongs committed because no individual rights exist.”

    OOOOOOOOkay, so that’s what’s going on. >:(

  6. Juli on April 3rd, 2009 9:36 am

    John..I don’t know if I should laugh or cry…. Finally someone had the cahones to say it. I’m not surprised it was you.

    Ellie - I’m SOO encouraged that you are seeing all of this too - given the fact that you have been on the blogs for a long time too, and have seen the ups and downs and how ultimately, I have felt there is no traction and it feels like we are spinning wheels. That has discouraged me. It’s like being teased, incessantly. Yes, people are leaving churches, people are being set free…but yet this evil of ownership prevails and is being defended by SGM! It’s horrific. And many others are falling victim to it despite the numbers leaving.

    That is why there is no reform to be had here. There can be no reconcilation, there can be no repentance, apart from SGM and everyone else recognizing the fact that this IS exactly as wicked as it seems to be - it is a stripping away of the God-given right of man to own himself and answer for himself, and it is what this Nation was founded on! How can we live here and call it a Christian nation and not see this truth being horrifically and repeatedly violated? I’m guessing (in part) is because we’ve filled our heads with Puritanical crap for so long we don’t know the difference. No coincidence the Puritans were doing the same thing when they arrived on the scene.

     And I for one am not going to be ashamed or cower in denial about it anymore - I have the freedom to speak my mind without fear of what others think - not because I don’t CARE about others, but because I DO CARE about truth and how others are impacted. It is not an either/or and I refuse to submit to that possibility. SGM has been strong arming people since the blogs began and it must stop. And the only way it WILL stop is for the people to realize what is going on and walk away and refuse to be enslaved. They can’t own you if you aren’t around to be owned. But most of all, they can’t own us because GOD SAYS THEY DON’T.

    The truth is: SGM will never change because the entire organization is built on this idea John has brought to the light: one of ownership. It isn’t about anything else really, because everything else, incuding polity, is an outworking of this basic fundamental belief they hold. And it is evil. It is wrong.

    For almost 18 months, every single conversation on the blogs has pointed back to this! Ownership. If we think about it, every discussion, every idea, every revelation, every doctrine or teaching, every methodology we have discussed at length to describe why we think there is a “problem” and how it affected us…they all were simply outworkings of ownership.

    btw Dan…..looks like Sop beat us both :) ahaha

  7. Dan on April 3rd, 2009 1:15 pm

    Yes — Sop is the winner.

    I think this post lays out in intricate detail what it is all about.  Remember too that these men make their living at what they do so it is in their vested interest to maintain control of people and the flow of money.

    So now the question is, where do we go from here?

  8. Juli on April 3rd, 2009 1:33 pm

    WE don’t go anywhere I think…well, We meaning you and me because we’ve already done what needs to be done because we know who owns who: we own ourselves because God has given this freedom back to us in response to our faith in Christ. So for us I think we persist in this knowledge of the truth and seek to set others free.

    It’s amazing when you figure out that all Christ accomplished was to restore US to back to ourselves ultimately, by restoring us back to God….the new thing created was the original thing created in a sense, hard to explain how it works. We return to our rightful place in His purpose and plan - joint heirs with Jesus, through adoption, predestined to good works, by grace through faith. We enjoy His presence, His favor, His power, His anointing…all by responding in faith. But how can we respond in faith when we don’t know what it is God intended for us to have?

    This fundamental freedom to know and experience God fully is what man seeks to steal from us - this ability to be who God created us to be. That, in my opinion, is the reason the idea that we don’t own ourselves is so terribly wicked. The gospel message is one of freedom, redemption, and ultimately being restored to something that has been lost. Lost through our inability to believe the truth and exchanging it for a lie, lost through the workings of man and their ideas being proliferated and adopted by others, lost through the enemy of our souls stealing from us what is rightfully ours - this gospel, this truth, is our DIVINE RIGHT.

    And this is the message: this gospel that sets us free, not one that enslaves us to other men or enslaves us to our consciences so that we believe we are condemned and defeated - this is the gospel that is preached to the ends of the earth.

    And if we should be preaching ANY gospel to ourselves every day, this is it. Not the Cross of Death, but the Gospel of Life.

  9. Sopwith on April 3rd, 2009 3:11 pm

    Thank You Ellie, You are so precious!

    Yea & Amen!

    Yes, this is the stone, Jesus, which has been rejected by the SGM builders, but which has become the head of the corner.  All Authority RESTS with Jesus, Now!  And there is now salvation in no one else but Jesus, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    I cry out to You, Jesus!

    Dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ, if you are in a Sovereign Grace Ministries affiliated church and your first devotion is to Christ Jesus, who redeemed you by His precious blood, demonstrate that devotion by kneeling in devotion TO CHRIST where ever your meetings take place, as a demonstration to Jesus and to all who attend:

    “There is “no other” but You, Jesus, given to me to be saved!”

    Praise God, Almighty!

    Praise You Jesus!

    In Christ,

    Sopwith

  10. Juli on April 3rd, 2009 3:37 pm

    Ellie that is the whole point behind the spiritual covering they say (or in some cases imply) they have over us…when I realized this was actually saying that THEY are our atonement, I shuddered in revulsion…

    if they believe they atone for us by standing in the stead of God, as Jesus did, that they are our mediators between us and God, then no wonder they think they OWN us. But they don’t Jesus does and He gave ourselves back to us when we surrendered to Him.

  11. musicman on April 3rd, 2009 6:08 pm

    John-

    BINGO…. this is excellent!

    peace-mm

    “It is for freedom that Christ died……”

  12. Who Owns You? « Under the Terebinth Tree on April 3rd, 2009 9:33 pm

    [...] http://spiritualtyranny.com/to-reform-or-not-to-reform [...]

  13. Sopwith on April 4th, 2009 1:26 pm

    Jesus Wins!

    I’ze reeds de last O’ chapter…

    Jesus Wins!

    YaHoooooooooooooooooooo!

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    In a little,  ;~)

    Sopy

  14. Juli on April 4th, 2009 4:13 pm

    I’m wondering how others are digesting this post…are they choking on it? Or is it a really rich portion of truth for them?

    Sometimes, even when something is rich and good, it is still hard to digest simply because we are not accustomed to it. So much of what I have personally digested for years never “set well” with me but I didn’t know why..and then the very fact that it didn’t sit well made me think something was wrong with ME…it was years before I actually had the courage to question the health of what I had consumed.

    I feel at times I’ve been fed a diet of spiritual junk food - tastes great going down, but not so helpful for producing long lasting energy, an appetite for more, or strength. Over time it caused me to waste away in fact spiritually, ironically while fattening me up to the point of laziness and unmotivation.

    So I guess I feel like truth should always produce what good food would. And I don’t find it a coincidence how often God’s Word and truth are presented in the context of food, health, and wellness.

  15. Sopwith on April 4th, 2009 4:40 pm

    Mr. Mahaney,

    “Sir, we would see Jesus “

    <p>
    <strong>-<a href=”http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=john+12+%3A21″>John 12:21</a></strong>
    <p>

    Sopwith

  16. Sopwith on April 4th, 2009 5:26 pm

    Nothing will ever separate us from the love of God!

    For Six hours, the God of All Heaven & Earth, hung there in his birthday suit—forget the UnderRoos…  Dying for that which separated us from Himself. 

    Death was not gonna stop Him,

    Hell wasn’t gonna stop Him, no neither. 

    Ha!

    He did All that for You & Me!!!!!

    Nothing will ever separate us from the love of God!

    Certainly, not Mr. Mahaney.   he he

    Certainly, not SGM Polity.  >snicker<

    UnderRoos or not.

    Hahahahahahahahaha!

    In a little,

    Sopwith

  17. Much Afraid on April 4th, 2009 11:01 pm

    Juli said: I’m wondering how others are digesting this post…are they choking on it? Or is it a really rich portion of truth for them?
    This is truth, sober, sober,sober truth!

    Sopy Said: I cry out to You, Jesus! Dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ, if you are in a Sovereign Grace Ministries affiliated church and your first devotion is to Christ Jesus, who redeemed you by His precious blood, demonstrate that devotion by kneeling in devotion TO CHRIST where ever your meetings take place, as a demonstration to Jesus and to all who attend:
    “There is “no other” but You, Jesus, given to me to be saved!”

    Amen and Amen, Thank you for that word….  I will be kneeling only to the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!

    John:
    Thank you for your courage! Thank you for your word of warning of what will be if our heads stay buried in the sand. O Lord, open the eyes  and hearts of your sons and daughters wherever they be found, in SGM or in the church universal, may we only ever bow our knee to you King Jesus. Lord Jesus have mercy on all the sheep of your pasture wherever they may be.

  18. Sopwith on April 4th, 2009 11:16 pm

    Ya, John,

    Beyond measure, your worth is.

    I’ze got ma light saber,

    Hows bout U?    ;~)

    In a little,

    Sopy

    P.S. Thanks –”Much Afraid”  Great Prayer!!!
    Jesus is Gr8, yea!

  19. Sopwith on April 5th, 2009 1:02 am

    OZYMAHANEIAS

    What?

    “I met a traveller from an antique land

    Who said:

    Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
    And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
    And on the pedestal these words appear:

    “My name is C. J. Mahaney, Apostle of Apostles:
    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”

    Nothing beside remains: round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.” (1)

    he he he  >grin<

    dat reminds me a somth’in:

    “All this I saw, as I applied my mind to everything done under the sun. There is a time when a man lords it over others to his own hurt.”

    Sopy
    ___
    Note: 1. Adapted: Shelley, OZYMANDIAS

  20. John Immel on April 5th, 2009 10:24 am

    Much Afraid…
    Welcome. 

    Thank you for your kind word…

  21. Juli on April 5th, 2009 11:24 am

    Much Afraid - Nice to “see” you here :)

    Of all the posters, you always stand out to me because of your name..I remember telling you not too long ago on the Refuge that I can’t wait until it changes due to circumstances..or at least I hope your aren’t much afraid anymore. You sound like you are just fine, basking in His goodness to us all.

    God is good, at work, and in us. What more could we ask for? :) be blessed today!

  22. Sopwith on April 5th, 2009 8:36 pm

    “Right Assumption”

    “If you’d say that you go (here in Germany) to a place called SGM (and translate that into German), they’d think that it is a cult. And if they would observe the same stuff as I did, they would feel that they are right with the assumption.”

    and:

    “I was asked not to swim against the flow, (seriously!) and stop resisting.  So this fish decided to jump out of the murky pond into the great lake of independent thought and faith.”

    —European,  “Right Assumption” ;  April 5th, 2009 ;
    http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/09/moving-on/#comment-968o ,-9682

    ***

    See, I’ze tolds ya’s, John, Really, I’ze not mak’in dis stuff up… 

    >snicker<

    he he he.

    In a little,  ;~)

    Sopwith

  23. Juli on April 5th, 2009 9:53 pm

    yeah..maybe someone in Germany will nail John’s blog post to the SGM church’s door…hehe

    wish I could help you out with the translation part John, but my German is rusty and I don’t know how to say “repent” auf Deutsch. :)

  24. Sopwith on April 6th, 2009 2:31 pm

    SGM “Reformation” !?!

    Juli,

    You Said:

    “yeah..maybe someone in Germany will nail John’s blog post to the SGM church’s door…hehe

    ***
    Your not advocating vandalism, are ya?   >snicker<

    he he

    Translation…dat a’ll be:

    “Bereut! Und glauben Sie dem Evangelium! ”

    YeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    Herr Sopy

    Note: Tr. : “Repents! And you believe the gospel ! “

  25. Juli on April 6th, 2009 8:53 pm

    Ja wohl Herr Sopy…alles klar, danke.

  26. Sopwith on April 6th, 2009 10:57 pm

    Hahahahahaha!

  27. Good Article « Notwsetapart’s Weblog on April 8th, 2009 12:17 am

    [...] http://spiritualtyranny.com/to-reform-or-not-to-reform [...]

  28. Sopwith on April 8th, 2009 6:51 pm

    How’Dee Ya’All,

    “John Immel, while being characterized by his deleterious detractors as a clueless half witted, half naked blogger, his detractors and their “feathered” friends however, you can be assure, will be found soon enough, to have no clothes at all.”

    >snicker<

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    In a little,   ;~)

    Sopy

  29. Sopwith on April 9th, 2009 8:51 am

    “SGM lost their credibility a long time ago. There’s another “Church Business” that is in need of an over-haul, –more rather, a heart transplant.”

    –Sopwith

  30. Sopwith on April 10th, 2009 4:09 pm

    “Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.”

    HowDee, Ya’All,

    Jesus told dis Story:

    “A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.  And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.  And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.  So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, “

    “Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.”

    “And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.  And the lord said unto the servant, “

    “Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.”   “For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.”
    *
    *
    After Jesus arose from dead, He said:

    “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.” –Mark 16:15,16

    ***
    God’s message of our “hope” in Jesus’ finished work, is not (nor has ever been) the “exclusive privilege” of certain wayward pastors, “in prisons of their own making”, –who would rob us of our freedom in Christ, and our Brains, –causing us to be banging around in a perpetual squirrel cage, mouthing seemly profound “soma” messages from these “white washed” tombs.

    “They are in need of a whole lot more than a spiritual mouth wash, –for death is in their bellies!”
    *
    *
    Thens, I’ze rememba dis:

    “And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying,
    “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,”

    “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

    “For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.”

    –Revelation 18:1-5
    *
    *
    In a twinkling of an eye,  ;~)
    *
    In Christ,
    *
    Sopy

  31. Juli on April 10th, 2009 10:07 pm

    ….nothing silences a blog quite like hard hitting truth.  And nobody hits it quite like John. He hits us in the mind…because no other part of us can take the impact of what he is saying.

    love it.  (the truth being spoken)

  32. Dan on April 11th, 2009 1:14 pm

    There really is not much to add to this discussion — the truth is here.

  33. Sopwith on April 11th, 2009 2:27 pm

    Jesus said: “I am the true vine.”

    What?

    Jesus also said:

    “My Father, is the husbandman.”

    Huh?

    Jesus also said:

    “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.  Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.  Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.  Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.  These things I command you, that ye love one another.  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.  But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me.  If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.  He that hateth me hateth my Father also.  If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.  But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:  And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. ”

    So…

    Are you listening?

    …Jesus is.

    In a twinkling of an eye,  ;~)

    Sopy

  34. Sopwith on April 12th, 2009 5:41 pm

    How’Dee, Ya’All,

    I’ze likes dis here quote:

    “Anything considered to be critical or negative regarding the (GSM) leadership falls quickly into the gossip/slander category and proves your disloyalty. This offers great protection for the leaders, but unfortunately, the same does not apply to the average SGM member.” — Gracie, SGMRefuge.Com
    *
    **
    *
    And I beheld Satan –as lightning fall from heaven…
    *
    *
    YeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    *
    *
    –Behold, I, (Jesus), give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you!

    **

    In the twinkling of an eye,  ;~)

    Sopy

  35. Camille on April 12th, 2009 10:09 pm

    Whew! What a  read!!! Very good to read. . . . I completely agree with most of what you’re saying — but about *my* previous life in Bob Jones  University’s fundamentalist orbit. You could just rename the players and you have a salient critique of that too! They, too, “own” the people that work for them, and when those people act outside of that ownership, the abuse really begins (http://www.drslewis.org/camille/ebenezers/).

    But that brings me to one relatively small point of clash — my (former) employer was borne out of Holiness/Methodist tradition. Calvinism/Reformed theology is quite a threat to them. So you can’t find the excesses of Geneva per se in their abuse. At all! And yet the abuses exist. Just as they did with the Judaizers in Galatians.

    In other words, I don’t think it’s a particular theological tradition. I think it’s the combination of religion and power.

    I do agree, too, that the evangelical world is coming to some sort of a major breakdown. I don’ t know what exactly, but there’s too much of this going on. I think blogs are a kind of samizdat, and I pray that however God destroys these leaders’ arrogance that it’s clear that it is entirely HIM.

    Lord Jesus, come quickly.

  36. John Immel on April 13th, 2009 11:36 am

    Camillie,
     
    Thanks for your comments.  And yes… this could be a critique of many, many, organizations and Church groups in the Evangelical world.  I am glad you see that because that is what I was trying to point out.  While SGM is the anecdote for this post, they are hardly the only people carrying the body of the failed assumptions in modern piety.  Nor is this an issue limited to Christianity. Islam leads the world in religious atrocity based on the predicate assumptions pointed too. 
     
    As for the minor clash… Individuals tend to pick and choose which parts of the Reformed Tradition that appeal to them and act accordingly (Which is what most folk do with the potpourri of their believing) so, certainly that means not everyone who has gravitated to Reformation Theology end up burning folk at the stake.  But everyone that seeks to use the progression I outlined above: Pervasive Depravity, Dictated Truth, Man does NOT own himself, as the predicate of Governmental philosophy at some point ends up producing the tyranny I have described.
     
    History is replete with examples of these assumptions and their corresponding outworking from all types governing bodies. 
     
    For lots of reasons people (if they think about it at all) tend to think about the Reformed tradition with a glowing benevolence absent any critical review.  They might intellectually assent to the historical facts of atrocity perpetrated by governors and mystic despots, but it never seems to register a need to look at cause and effect of the ideas and their impact on culture, government, or people.   
     
    The institutionalized predicate assumptions of Calvin produced Kant and from him come the secularized versions of man does not own himself:  and from here… the historical blood bath starts in earnest.      
     
    If not for the Renaissance and the Aristotelian epistemology that came to the Americas via boats packed with Enlightenment thinking, this country could never have been created with its founding premise: all men are created equal by God to pursue their life, liberty and happiness.
     
    And this philosophical assumption has created the greatest country, producing the greatest standard of living, giving, and liberty ever known in human history.  It is from this predicate assumption that the greatest prosperity known to man has spread around the globe and been at the heart of the greatest missionary outreach and global proclamation of God’s Gospel in over 2000 years, because from this assumption all men are endowed by their creator to exercise ambition with the content of their life without fear of the flaming stake. 
     
    I think I digressed a bit, but you get the idea.
     
    Peace and welcome
     
    John

  37. Camille on April 13th, 2009 1:27 pm

    YES!! I completely agree. That picking-and-choosing is one start of the problem. I mean, imo, even redefining “total depravity” from its original meaning — we are totally unable to save ourselves — to its current perversion — we are total pieces of crap — sets us up for the tyranny you describe. Which you sum up in “You do not own you.”

    That would explain so much of the private dysfunction as well.

    Anyway, thanks for the conversation. :-D

  38. Canary on April 13th, 2009 1:43 pm

    Hey John,

    I’m working my way through your post, er…I mean, book.  I have to keep myself from going off on tangents to read your other articles, something I’ll allow myself to do after I finish this one.

    It’s making me THINK.  What glorious freedom!

    I have a few comments, so far.  Many more if I had time.  You said:

    “ The doctrine becomes imprinted on the hearts of people until there are no personal boundaries, no personal ambition, (15) and no appeal for wrongs committed because no individual rights exist.”

    My experience to a tee.  Having read about how government is force, how the leaders felt they “owned” us, puts into words what I experienced in PDI/SGM.  I never had the words to express it though, until now.  Thanks, John.

    I wonder about something.  After leaving our enslavement in 1997, my husband shorty there after began his own business, which promises today to be a mulit-million dollar one.  He had no ambition in SGM.  Now, I see why.  The church squashes individual rights, and therefore, individual ambition.  The Lord has revealed to my husband his giftings and his calling to help others.  He has given my husband faith to walk in financial arenas (with all the moral integrity that is needed) that others fear to tread.  His faith is immense, especially because He knows that the Holy Spirit is putting him into a place to help others with his money. 

    I only share this to say this:  I have been married to this man for 25 years, yet never knew about this calling in his life until AFTER we left SGM in ‘97.  Isn’t that incredible?  He was OWNED by the leadership, who had him serving in children’s ministry.  How off is that?  If he’d been free to know and move in his true calling, what he could have done to help get the Body out of debt from the building fund, or raised money for the poor, or something besides overseeing the children’s ministry. Isn’t that an amazing thought?

    I will add that we take responsibility for allowing ourselves to be enslaved.   The buck stops here!

  39. John Immel on April 13th, 2009 2:32 pm

    Camillie

    “That would explain so much of the private dysfunction as well.”   Yes it does…. As an aside from I am convinced that most all psychological problems are directly related to philosophical failings.  I have friends that are Psychiatric Professionals.  We discuss this at length.  It is fascinating to watch how the imbedded assumptions people hold—the integrated ideas—drive their given neurosis. 
     
    I contend that it is man’s inability to reconcile his moral/ethical actions with his “flesh” values that is the source of his DIS-integration: his death.  Life is the ability to reconcile all values.
     
    And as you have read from me: Jesus is truth and Truth is Jesus.  And truth is that thing that gives everything VALUE.  It is to this reconciliation between Ethical knowledge and Flesh values that I believe Paul wrote this “Who can save me from the body of this death?  … Thanks be to the Anointed Jesus….

    “Anyway, thanks for the conversation. :-D”   You are very welcome. And thank you for participating in that conversation.

  40. John Immel on April 13th, 2009 2:55 pm

    Canary!!! 

    Glad to see you here. 
     
    “It’s making me THINK. What glorious freedom!”   I know… ain’t it fun? LOL

    “I have a few comments, so far. Many more if I had time.”   Well… as you have time we’d all enjoy hearing them
     
    Your comments are a prime example of the broader context of this post.  I don’t know how many stories I’ve heard over the years where men/women of extraordinary talent and ability who were mandated by the Oligarchy of Mediocrity to squander their lives hanging out with kids, or passing offering plates, or pushing whatever broom the “Leadership” thought needed pushed to vet the character of said broom pusher, to “qualify” them for some branch of ministry. 
     
    Your husbands God Given Greatness is in him: excercising his ambition in the areas of his passion, to organize chaos and create, to be fruitful and multiply, and once turned loose (once he decided to take the initiative to follow God) … the blessing of God flows.
     
    How many callings have been crushed out of existence because some guy behind a Plexiglas podium thought he was central planning for the People’s Republic of the Church of God?
     
    There will be a day when we all know the answer to this question.
     
    “I will add that we take responsibility for allowing ourselves to be enslaved. The buck stops here!”  
     
    Men/Women who think cannot be tyrannized. 

  41. Canary on April 13th, 2009 3:10 pm

    John,

    Thanks for welcoming a freed canary!

    You said:

     ”They must all hold the assumption that individual freedom, individual human life is subordinate to a superior principle-a dictated principle that trumps all other values.”

    OMG - how many times I heard this in the early days (I was in PDI from around ‘82 - ‘97), that we the people should put aside our own agenda to enable our leaders to succeed in their vision.  No wonder I felt so invisible in that organization (being a woman didn’t help much!).  I bought into this idea as it was presented at first, but like the frog in the water, didn’t feel the heat until the demands became blatant, especially the demands to comfess whatever was the “sin of the week” (that began happening in Brent’s church around ‘95, after he stopped the refreshing by the Spirit that was going on there)…  Merciful God, my eyes were then opened.

    Being a lover of history, I knew about the horrible actions done in history by different church factions, but hearing you put them together like that, well…why in the world don’t we learn from the mistakes of the past?  You are right that SGM isn’t burning anyone at the stake, only reputations and relationships. 

    My reading continues…

  42. Juli on April 13th, 2009 3:30 pm

    Hi my favorite Tweety Bird…good to see you here :)

    Hold on to your feathers as you are reading in here….hehe…I know YOUR feathers won’t be ruffled, but others’ have. YOUR wings will feel the power of the Spirit under them and you’ll REALLY begin to fly, which is SO FUN and SO EXCITING.
    The truth sets us free. And there is no end to the depths or heights that we are able to experience as long as we continue to earnestly seek truth, by faith.

  43. Canary on April 13th, 2009 3:54 pm

    Hey Juli, my good friend!

    You are so right.  How uplifting it is to hear the truth, to understand why. 

    You know what really ruffles my feathers and gets me squaking at my caged kitty?  To hear that the leaders I once trusted, onced believed were led by love (rolling my eyes), actually believed in an orthodoxy that I was somehow “owned” by them.  No wonder one of them looked at me upon our “exit” meeting and said he was sorry I couldn’t trust him.  What?  WHAT?  Now I see why he said that. 

    I wonder how many people would sign on the membership line if they were told that the leaders had a sense of ownership over the members of their church?

  44. Sopwith on April 13th, 2009 4:12 pm

    “SGM Is Wallowing In The Mud…”

    Take Responsibility!

    Christ, Jesus Has Made Us Free.

    “–Stand Fast Therefore In The Liberty Wherewith Christ Hath Made Us Free…”

    Do Not Allow Yourselves To Be Enslaved!

    SGM Is Slavery.

    Free Yourselves!
    *
    *
    I’se rememba somth’in:
    “It would have been better for them (SGM) not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.  Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’ and, ‘A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.’ ”
    *
    *
    In the twinkling of an eye,  ;~)

    Sopy

  45. Juli on April 13th, 2009 4:23 pm

    Canary - you said: No wonder one of them looked at me upon our “exit” meeting and said he was sorry I couldn’t trust him.  What?  WHAT?  Now I see why he said that. 

    The same happened to me, as you know…my pastor wrote to me in an email last year after I left and said it was because of idolatry and legalism:
    “We are the Body of Christ. We really do need each other, more than we know. I am asking you to reconsider your conclusions. They do not ring true to me, although I deeply respect you and certainly want to trust the Lord in you. I believe that you need a work of God’s grace to draw you back into a right relationship with Him. To walk away from the church at this point will no doubt bring the very opposite of what you hope for. This is not because the church is infallible, nor because of any weird controlling spirit desiring to dominate people’s lives.” (emphasis mine)

    then he said:

    “I have honestly never had anyone with such a situation as you pose. I do not believe that you understand the true issues. Perhaps , though, it would be wise to take special care in one regard especially: I would be very careful about the danger of becoming dispassionate about the very thing that Jesus is the most passionate about—that for which He died, that for which He laid down His life, that for which He intercedes, that for which He came to form, His bride for which He will return. I tell you in all honesty and love that I believe that you are wrong in your understanding of the situation. I wish that I had the place in your life where you would at least give me the benefit of the doubt and receive these warnings and course corrections.”

    So in other words, my pastor was telling me to listen to him over the Spirit of God. And why would he think he could do this? Because he believed he owned me. And right up until April 1st, 2008, he actually did, because I allowed it.

    But no longer. I am free…all because the truth was relentlessly shouting in my mind and I could not help but hear it and respond.

  46. Juli on April 13th, 2009 4:33 pm

    oh, and your other question - I think some are attracted to the sense of ownership, disgustingly enough…they “sense” it and it gives them some long-desired security because they have convinced themselves they are already depraved, sinful, wicked, and need some help. So the covering being offered is welcomed…they simply don’t know the bondage that comes with it. I was one of these.

    I was reading thru old journals and bible studies last week and realized I was convinced I was wicked at heart long before SGM…they just reaffirmed it for me. And as that false teaching has slowly dropped from my heart..I can’t tell you the peace and joy not to mention faith that has sprung up in its place. And when you feel like that,suddenly you realize you don’t need a covering, or whatever they are selling…Jesus as the truth, and His anointing is all we need.

    If you are not confident in your identity, spiritually, then you are at risk for all sorts of things. Discovering who I was created to be has been what lit the fire under me..and I’m empowered for the first time in my spiritual life.

  47. Canary on April 13th, 2009 7:52 pm

    It is the same as those in Israel who desired a King.  We want to look like everyone else, and not have to make the important decisions, or have to wait patiently for God.

    It’s like John says.  You begin with the premise that your heart is wicked, you need someone to oversee you, and you give yourself away to the one you think will bring you closer to God.  Maybe the desire is noble, but the premise is all wrong!

  48. musicman on April 13th, 2009 9:03 pm

    John-

    The Peoples Republic of the Church of God…just about fell off my chair….

  49. John Immel on April 14th, 2009 12:14 am

    MM… I aim to bring mirth into everyone’s life.

    LOL

  50. Canary on April 14th, 2009 9:51 am

    John,

    I have to agree with MM.  The PRCG…that’s a new one.  Thanks for the laughter.

  51. Canary on April 14th, 2009 10:44 am

    Make no mistake; this is precisely what Jesus warned His followers to beware.  And it is this very Leaven that marks the whole of Church History. 

    John,  I have recently been studying about the leaven.  I read about the attitudes that make up a Pharisee, such as hypocrisy, but you seem to put it into one nutshell.  So, you are saying that the leaven that Jesus warns us of is the belief that we do not own ourselves, that the church does (or any government)?  Am I understanding this correctly?

    Also, as an aside, if you do not believe that reform can happen in SGM, do you think it cannot happen in our American government? I don’t want to take you off track, but this is of vital interest to me. Over half of U.S. citizens voted without their minds, in my opinion. Generations of Americans do not know what our Constitution says, and are giving up their freedom. Comparitavely, many church goers don’t know what the bible says about their freedom in Christ, either. It is all too similar to be a coincidence. What do you think?

  52. John Immel on April 14th, 2009 11:20 am

    Canary…
     
    You ask the money question.  As it turns out … I have about 20,000 words of explanation, in an incomplete book called Leaven of the Pharisees.  And another box full of notes and such yet to be organized into an understandable presentable form.
     
    That does not mean I can’t give you a thumbnail review. 
     
    The Gospel use of hypocrisy is a little different than how we use the word.  We say hypocrite and tend to mean Sanctimonious Fraud.  Notice that Jesus used the word to identify a logical inconsistency that compelled the Pharisees to take action that violated the human side of the Law.  I.E.  The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath.
     
    Leaven is not one thing.  Leaven is a metaphor for something that grows, or encroaches, or expands.  In context to Jesus exhortation to beware, leaven is a progression of ideas that drive people to specific outcomes.  (That should ring a bell) With striking regularity the Leaven of the Pharisees produces the very phenomena that I point to in this post: A rational that delivers people over to the sword in the name of God.
     
    (I think Jesus said something about that)
     
    The predicate of leaven is that there is a highest, precise truth and all else is in sacrifice to that truth. 
     
    With this in mind, it becomes rather easy to see the outworking …. Read the Gospels with what I just said in mind.  Read Jesus conflicts and see what they revolved around. 

  53. Juli on April 14th, 2009 11:38 am

    I think many Christians, myself included, have simply thought of leaven and the Pharisees as an pervasive sinful attitude of pride, hypocrisy, or legalism..while never stopping to think of the ideas that drove those attitudes (and eventually actions - including crucifying Christ)

    it makes sense to back up a step and ask ourselves- WHY did the Pharisees come the conclusions they did about washing the outside of the cup? Why did they think the things they did? And could it be more than simply offering a works-based religion and them being critical of others? Sure..works-salvation is an outworking of all these ideas, but I don’t think that is the main point of Jesus’ teaching against the leaven- I never have. But we have heard this for far too long that we don’t even consider there could be another meaning.  Actually that happens quite often with the Gospels - we simply believe what someone else (the Church establishment) has told us, never seeing the inconsistencies these teachings produce - not only with other Scripture but with reality and our experiences, which we are told to discount as fradulent and unworthy of examination simply because they have been defined as such.

  54. Jim on April 14th, 2009 6:52 pm

    John,

    Did the other shoe drop?

    You said, “Man does NOT own himself”.

    Is your premise that man does indeed own himself, or do you think that we are owned by God?

  55. John Immel on April 14th, 2009 7:19 pm

    Jim,
    Not sure what shoes are under discussion.
     
    I haven’t broached the subject of who in fact does own whom, under what conditions and to what ends. 
     
    But this much has been made clear… in my never to be humble opinion… man driven government models whose philosophic premise is Dictated Good, moral depravity and the ownership of brothers and sisters are evil. 

  56. Jim on April 14th, 2009 7:29 pm

    The first shoe was the unanswered question,Who owns Whom-That is the Question.

    I thought that you might have answered that question in your 11:36, Apr 13.

    I’ll wait  :-)

  57. John Immel on April 14th, 2009 7:37 pm

    hahahah

    Yeah… well… at least you know I don’t think it the People Republic of the Kingdom of God central planning aparachik.  

    I got lots more to say about all this… we’ll get their …. eventually. 

  58. Canary on April 14th, 2009 9:49 pm

    I do have to say that not even God forces ownership on us, though He could.  He gave us free choice, to go His way or not.  That began all the way back in the garden. So what right does a man or church have to “own” others?  But then, I am just a little tweety with a bird brain…

    Imagine a black man inside an Abraham Lincoln’s suit. That is a picture of the conflict in the church - slavery and freedom trying to live in the same body. Talk about leaven!

  59. Juli on April 14th, 2009 10:06 pm

    John - yes, getting past the fact that government, church, pastors, apostles, the “group” etc don’t own us is a HUGE step I think…so many decisions are forced upon us simply because of the presupposition that we are owned by someone else, hence have some sort of obligation, and responsibility to others when in many instances, we simply don’t. And we have no part in defining that responsibility - it is thrust upon us.

    So, we find ourselves answering to the demands of others placed upon us,why? Because we have erronesouly believed we owe them something along the way……we are never able to be free.

    There is order, beauty and boundaries (ironically) even in freedom. That’s my two cents anyway…the absence of tyranny doesn’t automatically imply anarchy, at least that is how I see it. Yes, many abuses in the evangelical world, charismatic chaos proponents come to mind..but I think Scripture is abundantly clear we are not to live in chaos..but yet equally as clear we are to live in freedom, so the two (freedom and control) are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the Bible exhorts us to live SELF-Controlled lives….interesting, huh?

    Of course lack of order is only one criticism of those who seek to remove freedoms…they also claim lack of accountability is a danger (which would lead to…um, chaos I suspect in their minds) but even this they base on our inability to think righteously and be guided by the Spirit of God who leads us into all truth.

    Come to think of it, those who advocate control, order, accountability to excess, lack of chaos, etc must logically think that God is not ultimately sovereign and He isn’t in control of His children to any degree…so I’m wondering why Calvinists (and SGM in particular) always are among the most fearful of this God-given freedom and go to great lengths to bind up others (millstones anyone?). According to their very doctrine, we should be able to leave people (the elect) alone to follow the God who called them…we don’t have to speak truth in their lives because they have the Spirit of God already.

    Romans 8

     28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
     29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, (doesn’t sound like chaos or lack of accountability to me) that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
     30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    I think God does a great job of running the universe. And He has a great plan to carry it out. And the fact that He allows us to participate in His Kingdom on earth, well..is amazing.

  60. Juli on April 14th, 2009 10:11 pm

    wow canary, excellent image! right on….

    and I’ve thought a lot about our interaction with God, and if anyone ever had the “right” to own us it is certainly Him, yet as you pointed out, He doesn’t force anything upon us…he gave us freedom and ability to choose and respond in faith, or not.

    He isn’t a dictator..and those who see Him as such, well..I feel sad for them. If our image of God is warped it is because we have believed man’s warped images of God. Ask God to reveal Himself to us personally..we immediately find kindness, grace, love, mercy…His kindness and goodness leads us to change our minds (repentance) not the backside of His hand slapping us upside the head and threatening us with eternal damnation. Good grief..to think the church (remember Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God??) has done that for so long, and God never has.

  61. Camille on April 15th, 2009 8:35 am

    I’m reading Soul Repair by Jeff VanVonderen right now, and he talks about this very thing. That God’s respectful toward us. That he dances over us!! What a picture!

    I also think it’s such a gift we can give our children to tell them that they “own” their bodies with God. Maybe the ownership metaphor breaks down here, but I don’t think it does. I hear so many parenting “experts” in the tyranny-ethic teach their children to ignore their needs as sinful and selfish. But if they think another person owns their bodies, then these children are at risk for all kinds of predators. They are just “obeying” another adult who claims ownership over them. ::shudder::

    Anybody here read Alice Miller’s For Their Own Good? She’s a very controversial German author who, in essence, concludes the same thing you do, John, about self-ownership only in regards to . . . Nazi Germany. It’s a chilling and frightening book, especially because the ideals she identifies over 200 years of parenting advice in Germany sound like they were lifted right out of stuff that’s on our churches’ lobby book tables.

  62. Juli on April 15th, 2009 12:43 pm

    Camille - I really enjoy VanVonderen’s work, I will have to get the book you suggest..and the German work as well, that sounds very intruiging. Pretty bold that someone drew the comparisons, I know people have not liked the fact that survivors of spiritual abuse have compared their bondage to slavery in Egypt or German concentration camps, but I think the reason is clear: the mindset behind the captors is IDENTICAL. So it produces the same results in the oppressed.

  63. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 12:52 pm

    Are SGM members taught to follow Jesus?

    Are SGM members taught that they are precious in God’s sight because of what Jesus did on the roman cross?

    Are SGM members taught that when they come to Christ and accept the sacrifice made for them by Christ’s shed blood, that they are totally forgiven, their sins being covered by the shed blood of Jesus?

    Are SGM members taught that because they are forgiven ALL of their sins by none other that Christ Jesus, Himself, that they can now forgive one another?

    Are SGM members taught to follow and serve God alone?

    Are SGM members taught that Jesus Calls us his friends and that we are to obey His commands, first and formost?

    Are SGM members taught to love their neighbor as themselves?

    Are SGM members taught to take the gospel into the world and share the good news with their neighbors?

  64. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 1:01 pm

    Does SGM use scripture as a weapon –against men and women who are trying to follow Jesus and provide spiritual nourishment for their families?

  65. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 1:06 pm

    Does SGM use “My Way Or The Highway” tactics on their members?
    How does SGM treat those members that may “disagree”?

  66. Juli on April 15th, 2009 1:10 pm

    Sop- I’d say most churches have used and still use Scripture as a weapon, by virue of it being declared infallible they are now free to attach fallible interpretations…and justify these interpretations on the fact that Scripture is without error, but that isn’t logical - you can’t assume your interpretation to be without error because you say the text is, it doesn’t work like that.

  67. Canary on April 15th, 2009 1:11 pm

    Juli,

    Amen on your 10:06!  I love this:

    “There is order, beauty and boundaries (ironically) even in freedom. “

  68. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 5:17 pm

    Does SGM affiliated churches allow a non-member to attend a Care Group, of their choosing, on a regular basis?

  69. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 5:23 pm

    Are SGM members allowed to think for themselves?

  70. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 5:25 pm

    Are SGM members allowed to have bible studies in their own homes, with a few friends, maybe their neighbors?

  71. musicman on April 15th, 2009 6:23 pm

    Totally off topic…but I really enjoyed this music video!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WybvhRu9KU

  72. Juli on April 15th, 2009 6:33 pm

    musicman, GREAT song and video! The music style reminds me of the band Wilco.

    (shh..they aren’t Christian, so if you’ve heard of them don’t tell anyone!)

    thanks for sharing!! Simple yet powerful lyrics.

  73. musicman on April 15th, 2009 6:36 pm

    No worries Juli-Your Wilco secret is safe with me….

  74. Sopwith on April 15th, 2009 8:35 pm

    When does John get to rule the world?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughqjbzx2Fk

  75. Juli on April 16th, 2009 12:09 am

    Sop - to answer your question - John gets to rule the world WAY before SGM “allows” him to

    hahahahaha

    thanks musicman for keeping my affinity for (gasp!) secular music a secret… I knew I liked you :)

  76. Sopwith on April 16th, 2009 3:55 am

    “Sweeping Floors”

    Juli,

    Yes, John has come along way from his floor sweeping days, hasn’t he?   he he

    Now he has us sweeping his floors!  >snicker<

    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    In a little,

    Sopy  ;~)

  77. Juli on April 16th, 2009 10:05 am

    Sop,
    for the record - I think the last thing John would do is ask someone to sweep floors for him….that assumption goes against everything he has written here and believes, so not sure what you meant by that….just a confusing comment, even if it was made in jest

    Peace, Juli

  78. John Immel on April 16th, 2009 10:10 am

    Hehe… today I am a blog Pastor… thou shalt serve me.  Sop you missed a spot over in the cyber corner.  Juli ….   Grab a mop. 
     
    I’ll be over here doing important things. 
     
    Twiddle … twiddle.  ….  
     
    Hey… get off that prophesy mic.  … ! 

  79. Ellie on April 16th, 2009 10:18 am

    for the record - I think the last thing John would do is ask someone to sweep floors for him

    …of course not!!

    (he’d have ya clean out the microwave…)

    ;)

  80. Dan on April 16th, 2009 10:19 am

    Or pick up his underoos at the dry cleaner…

  81. John Immel on April 16th, 2009 10:24 am

    For the record… I will let anyone who likes to do dishes… SERVE ME! 

    rotflmbo

  82. John Immel on April 16th, 2009 11:31 am

    Camille
     

    “I hear so many parenting “experts” in the tyranny-ethic teach their children to ignore their needs as sinful and selfish. But if they think another person owns their bodies, then these children are at risk for all kinds of predators. They are just “obeying” another adult who claims ownership over them.

     
    You raise a great issue.  These philosophical premises, in this post, go much deeper than just how some men treat brothers and sisters. 
     
    Being the ever watching sort, I notice what we do to kids.   Child A takes toy from Child B.  Child B has a fit.  Parent scolds child B for reacting.   Why?  The charge to Child B is that he is selfish, or sinful because he does not want to share.  Parents don’t want to take the heat for their children’s bad attitudes: if this event happens in church woe to Child B. 
     
    And here is the tragedy. Child B is really being punished for being unable to make a judicial case. 
     
    Let me back up a tick to lay out a thumbnail of my thesis. 
     
    Man was designed to create.  That creation is called work.  His identity, sense of self is intrinsically tided to that ability to bring order from Chaos, to create, to work.  The curse that visited man for his rebellion in the Garden was an assault on his ability to produce successfully with that work. 
     
    Among many things, God’s plan was designed to restore this work/identity relationship.   I submit that this is the heart of His effort. To restore man to his rightful ability so that man can participate and enjoy is rightful identity, the full sense of him-SELF.
     
    The overarching theme of the Ten Commandments is that Man is sole owner of the content of his life, wife, work and substance.  (LOTS to say about this so hang on and I will put this out for public consumption)  
     
    So now to Child B. The child version of work is play.  Kids practice their creation by pretending.  The toys are merely the symbols in the complex interaction between creation, ownership and self and identity.  However misplaced or foolish it seems when it is as trivial as a Pokemon the reality is Self is the sum of work, and creation.   
     
    The toy he was playing with was his.  He had ownership.  Ownership is directly related to identity. 
     
    Child A takes the toy.  Child B reacts. Not because he is selfish in the self absorbed version.  He reacts because his judicial sense has been offended.  He has been stolen from.  And from here the tyranny begins.  Parents discipline to the wrong moral premise.
     
    Child B learns that no safe place exists because at every turn he is punished for any expression of self.  Child A learns that he can have anything he wants just because he wants it because others must cash his moral blank check just because he writes it.  The anxiety of Child B rises in proportion to the amount of himself being stolen.   The anxiety of Child A rises in proportion to his inability to create for himself.
     
    In this environment, with striking regularity, children solve their problems with violence.   Children become increasingly more possessive, self absorbed, and belligerent. All in service to some seriously misplaced philosophical assumptions about self and identity and ownership.   
     
    And then parents wonder why they have behavioral problems.  The answer is not that hard to see.  The children do not feel safe.  They are not protected in them SELVES: the content of their creative work.
     
    Add the adult predators into the mix and you have the current recipe for cultural disaster. 

  83. Canary on April 16th, 2009 11:32 am

    Hee-hee!  You guys crack me up!  (I DON’T do windows, no matter who is ruling the world!)

  84. musicman on April 16th, 2009 11:44 am

    John-

    Spot on with child example…my wife was the one who pointed this out to me when our dear leaders would propose that Child B was selfish and needed to learn to share.

    Funny, the pastors ended up doing the same thing….taking things from people and then accusing them of being selfish when they got upset or protested.

  85. Bree on April 16th, 2009 12:32 pm

    “Does SGM affiliated churches allow a non-member to attend a Care Group, of their choosing, on a regular basis?”

    Yes, for a year, about ‘99, at FCC. Maybe not anymore.

    Hi John,

    I greatly enjoyed your post. And learned so much. Thanks for bringing clarity about what goes on in SGM. Also it was helpful to hear you, as a Christian, validate “self.” I know you’re not talking objectivism exactly, but in thinking of that, if a person is not strong in their faith (or has an all-or-nothing mentality), they can make the mistake of seeing it as an either/or. Either we’re to deny self or we have to deny the Word (or what we’re being taught from the Word). So it was very helpful to hear your take. I still have more learning to do to fully understand what you’re saying. Maybe I’m referencing something in a different post of yours if it wasn’t just this one… Anyway, thank-you!

    And I’d love to hear more of what you touched on just up above which is along the same line: “Among many things, God’s plan was designed to restore this work/identity relationship. I submit that this is the heart of His effort. To restore man to his rightful ability so that man can participate and enjoy is rightful identity, the full sense of him-SELF.” If you have written more on this somewhere else, I’d appreciate it if you could direct me there…

    Thanks,
     
    Bree

  86. Juli on April 16th, 2009 12:32 pm

    musicman, yeah, that’s how all this tyranny plays out as adults..

    I punished my young son for all the wrong reasons, which he responded with MUCH anger…I identified his creative drive as pride, his self-awareness as selfishness, his wit as sarcasm and cruelty, his self-motivation as aggression, his sense of justice as selfishness, etc, etc, etc,…

    some time after I left my SGM church this all started to become clear to me. I realized I was parenting the way I had been taught by pastors, and how I perceived God “parented” me…it carried over into my own parenting. So I started thinking about how God interacts with me, and just modeled that for my son. Very basic stuff full of grace, not legalism or control.

    The result? MUCH joy, peace, security, less anger…more creativity, increased ability to think and reason..it has been amazing. Just last night he was talking to me about an inequitable friendship he has with anotehr child that is rooted in manipulation. He was able, at ten years old, to identify his own needs, his gifts and abilities, the fact that he was being manipulated, and then he applied logic and reason to the situation - identifying his boundaries, to the other childetc…I was so proud of him! He is now better equipped to deal with “life” and other people.

    His church experience almost killed him emotionally and spiritually. And by the way, he LOVES God now, seeks him out, and is free…once we removed ourselves from under the tyrannical teachings, we both flourished. No effort involved on our part except to identify the ideas being taught, and remove ourselves as a result.

  87. John Immel on April 16th, 2009 2:22 pm

    Bree!!  Welcome and all that good feeling stuff.  Glad to see you here.  Thanks for posting. 

    And I’m glad you are learning.  I’ll be thrilled when you say your laughing.  Yee haw! 
     
    As for my further commentary on self and God’s plan and work etc.  Currently a full written synthesis does not exist.  Got a lot of background and foundation to lay out.  Blogging is a very narrow medium for laying out sweeping ideas.  So I gotta take things in little bite size chunks. 
     
    I am looking into other media methods to remedy that.  I’ll get there. 
     
    And besides… I want folk to think… I want them to see this for themselves.  To follow the path of truth for themselves as apposed to the spoon feeding of some leadership folk in modern Christianity. 
     
    Anyway…
     
    While I’m not a strict Objectivist as defined by the push towards atheism in that body of thought, (because I’m pretty sure the God of Abraham, Isaacs and Jacob really does exist) the elements of objectivism that are manifest truth are directly related predicate VALUES.  Only living creatures can take actions.  The actions living creatures make are in pursuit of life.  Actions in pursuit of life are the foundation for all subsequent actions. 
     
    (I digressed a touch… but not too much.) 
     
    The predicate actions defined by God in the Garden were directly related to Life actions and man’s place in that life acton: Work, Creation, fruitfulness, multiplication.  Adam’s identity, satisfaction, personal definition was in context to this very dynamic.  By contrast Adam’s rebellion in the Garden was an action rooted in Death.  For lots of reasons yet to be discussed here, by yours truly, this began the disintegration of man’s identity: his ability to create, be fruitful and multiply.
     
    As a minor aside… notice that the curse for both the man and the woman went to the very core of their identity.  Man suffers toil and futility.  Women suffer pain in the face of creating life in child birth.    
     
    Most of the subsequent blessings God initiated in the earth were directed towards man’s ability to create. 
     
    Much more on this to come.
     
    Bree… thanks so much for being out there.  Know this, the Holy Spirit is here to lead and guide into all truth.  Jesus is truth and truth is Jesus.  And truth is that which gives everything value.  Go relentlessly hunt them down and you will have the right answers.

  88. Sopwith on April 16th, 2009 5:45 pm

    “May The Lord’s Blessing Fill This House”

    HowDee, Ya’All,

    “Without mirth and humor, this effort, however important, –at this level of emotion, is wholly unsustainable…”

    (Somesbudy famous says dat to me once…who was dat…?”)

    ***

    Please keep you seats and tables in the upright condition… (not!)

    >snicker<

    Please observe the “big flashing” “Extreme Humor” sign in front of you!   (Yes!)

    he he

    …and don’t forget to “Laugh”

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    ***

    When the LORD turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that dream.  Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great things for them.  The LORD hath done great things for us; whereof we are glad.

    ***

    May The Lord’s Blessing Fill The House Of Immel, To Over-Flowing!

    Ma prayers are ma mop! 

    John, anytime, anywhere, Bro!

    Greater love hath no man…

    In a little, ;~)

    Sopy

  89. Sopwith on April 16th, 2009 6:25 pm

    Song of Eldamar

    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
    Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
    Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
    And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.

    Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
    In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.

    There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years,
    While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears.

    O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
    The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.

    O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
    And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.

    But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
    What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

    Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind,
    long years numberless as the wings of trees!

    The long years have passed like swift draughts
    of the sweet mead in lofty halls beyond the West,
    beneath the blue vaults of Varda wherein the stars
    tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly.

    Who now shall refill the cup for me?

    For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars,
    from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds,
    and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;
    and out of a grey country darkness lies
    on the foaming waves between us, and mist
    covers the jewels of Calacirya for ever.

    Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar!
    Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.

    Maybe even thou shalt find it.

    Farewell!

    – Galadriel’s Song of Eldamar; from J.R.R. Tolkien.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Erdh3XFJ8

    Blessings!

    In the twinkling on an eye! ;~)

    Sopy

  90. Bree on April 16th, 2009 6:33 pm

    John,

    You’re the second person today to specifically encourage me to think for myself–actually, make that the third. I’m so thankful God has brought people into my life to do that rather than tell me what I should believe. You’re also the second person today to remind me that the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth.

    Thank-you,

    Bree

  91. Bree on April 16th, 2009 6:52 pm

    Sopy–

    Well, that was really beautiful. How come most of the songs you share make me cry? Hmmm? I thought laughter was the order of the day. : ) But I did enjoy it.

    I was about to comment when I saw your comment. I just wanted to let you know that I’ve been praying for you and your family.

    In my thoughts,

    Bree [from J.R.R. Tolkien]

  92. Sopwith on April 16th, 2009 7:23 pm

    “Laughter & Sorrow”

    Bree,

    Blessings to your Household!

    Glad to see you here!

    You are of great value to Christ, Jesus!

    What a blessing you have been to all of us!

    ***

    As Galadriel’s Song conveys, “all paths are drowned deep in shadow…”

    Laughter is important, –because right now, in this great land, “all paths are (indeed), drowned deep in ’shadow’…”

    In J.R.R. Tolkien’s tale “Lord Of The Rings”,  –here at this point in the story –we find Galadriel weeping because her way of life has come to an end.

    She must diminish and go to the west…

    In the same way, soon, our way of life, in this land, faces the possibility of a diminished future.

    Certainly a “changed” one.

    Wednesday’s tea party was clumsily, an effort in freedom.

    …Few took notice. 

    ***

    Laughter is the medicine that is needed…,

    While We’se all a wait’in on the Lord!

    Keep yous eyes on Jesus…We are all well beyond the boat, now…

    In the twinkling of an eye, ;~)

    Jesus’ Sopy

  93. Sopwith on April 16th, 2009 7:32 pm

    Bree,

    I, and my family, are deeply honored.

    Thank you for your thoughts & prayers.  dito + 24k

    The heavens are open to your crys!

    In a little,  ;~)

    Jesus’ Sopy

  94. Bree on April 16th, 2009 7:53 pm

    Oh, thank-you for explaining that. I mean what you meant. I don’t know what you’re referring to from yesterday. The Secretary of Homeland Security thing? No, I suppose not. Well, since we left the D.C. area, I’ve lost interest. It seems more real there for some reason. (Except during the campaign. That was, interesting.) You don’t have to explain. I can, well, no I probably can’t. Do you want to explain?

    I’m kind of curious about it.

    Blessings,

    Bree 

  95. Sopwith on April 16th, 2009 8:10 pm

    Bree,

    Are you sure?

    http://michellemalkin.com/2009/02/21/tea-party-usa-the-movement-grows/

    In a little,

    Sopy

  96. Bree on April 16th, 2009 8:32 pm

    : )

  97. Juli on April 16th, 2009 10:28 pm

    I enjoy J.R.R.R.R.R. Tolkien as well…but boy am I lost with the references! haha

    but, laughter is good…I agree.

    I certainly get my giggles here…

  98. Sopwith on April 17th, 2009 1:34 am

    Are You Running On Empty?

    “Looking out at the road rushing under my wheels
    I don’t know how to tell you all just how crazy this life feels
    I look around for the friends that I used to turn to –to pull me through –Looking into their eyes I see them running too…”

    Running on - running on empty
    Running on - running blind
    Running on - running towards the Son
    But I’m running behind..

    Gotta do what I can just to keep this faith alive
    Trying not to confuse it with what I do to survive…

    Running on - running on empty
    Running on - running blind
    Running on - running towards the Son
    But I’m running behind..

    Everyone I know, everywhere I go
    People need some reason to believe
    I don’t know about anyone but me
    If it takes all night, that’ll be all right
    If I can bring you closer to Jesus before I leave…

    Running on - running on empty
    Running on - running blind
    Running on - running towards the Son
    But we’re running behind…

    ***

    I’ze rememba dis:

    Come unto me all that are heavy laden…
    And I will give you rest!     –Jesus

    ***

    In the twinkling of an eye, ;~)

    Sopy
    ___
    Notes:
    Adapted: Jackson Brown – “Running On Empty”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EliPpvdHfeg

  99. Sopwith on April 17th, 2009 1:50 am

    HowDee, Ya’All,

    Ops!

    Just disregard the words inside the video link above (at the end of the Brown video). I was typing and did not see them until I posted the comment above.

    (John, you might want to remove the YouTube link, just to be safe.)

    Sorry.

    Sopy

  100. Bree on April 17th, 2009 2:34 am

    Sopy,

    I was thinking… I did some reading there. I did actually see something about this awhile ago, a picture, but I didn’t read the article. Anyway, it sounds like a really good thing, like they are having an impact (small, maybe, but still), the numbers are growing. I bet they’ll have an affect on the congressional elections. That could help, right? The lack of MSM coverage reminds me of the presidential campaign. That was frustrating.

    I don’t want to assume anything. Do you feel it’s hopeless? What you said makes it sound like you see something critical happening soon. I don’t understand. Do you mean the path we’re on or something more? You don’t have to explain. It is sad that we’re not the nation we were founded to be.

    I’m really ignorant about these things. My husband and I have both been saying that we need to know more about what’s going on. (Well, he’s not ignorant, just busy.)

    This isn’t the place for this discussion, is it?  John?

    Did you even want to discuss it? If not, that’s O.K. I’m glad to think about something different. I’m glad to know.

    Thanks for giving me something to think about.

    Bree

  101. Bree on April 17th, 2009 6:57 am

    Oops! It’s all about that new budget, isn’t it? : ) I’m laughing now, at myself. At least there’s this: I’m going to start paying attention. Thanks for that.

    Well, all for laughs, eh?

    Bree

  102. Sopwith on April 17th, 2009 9:32 am

    Christ is to us –”the Wisdom and Power of God” !

    HowDee, Ya’All,

    Bree,

    Blessings!

    I am sure that John will start a Post, “All Other Comments Go Here” In short order…  >snicker<

    >grin<

    Hahahahahahahah!

    ***
    Dat reminds me of someth’in:

    For the message of the cross is to us –who are being saved by it –it is the power of God!  As you know, preaching the  crucified Christ, can be  a foolish stumbling block to some, but not to those of us who hear the good new & receive it, –for these,–Christ, is the power of God, and the wisdom of God.  Christ Jesus, becomes for us–who are God’s wonderful kids– wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption! 

    Great Stuff!  

    Great stuff indeed!

    So let us glory in just that –the  Lord Himself!

    Being bold, in “our” love for Jesus!

    YaHoooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    Thank you for what you have done for me, Jesus!

    Praise your Holy Name!

    In a little,  ;~)

    Sopy

  103. John Immel on April 17th, 2009 11:31 am

    So we swerved into a political discussion on a post about philosophical premise of who own whom?   Hummm imagine that.  
     
    How utterly appropriate.  I know Christians get funny about broaching the content of political debate. The reaction can’t be helped really, because so many folk filter their political beliefs thought sieve of their implicit philosophical assumptions.   
     
    The current political climate is directly related to who owns whom.   And the lines being drawn in the public arena are along these very topics. How much of YOU does a government own.  What is the moral rational for the government being able to come take what you have and give it to others?   Who much power should the government have to compel you … to FORCE you to comply. 
     
    I am telling everyone who will listen the Tyranny is already here.  We are in the second trimester of what will be born a very, very, very bloody fight.   And just like the Lutherans in the Weimar Republic, American Christian Movements are extolling the virtues of sacrifice, and death, abetting the moral justification of sin and selfishness for government TAKING from individuals and giving it to the collective. 
     
    There is a reason that the critics of the Christian Church have never seen the Church as a medium of protecting and saving and defending liberty.   Historically we have far too often been the ones leading the charge for oppression, and bondage, and ultimately bloodshed. 
     
    Pay attention folks… Pay attention….

  104. Sopwith on April 17th, 2009 11:58 am

    Your desktop is full of Apples, John!

    Hahahahahahaha!

    In a little, ;~)

    Sopy

  105. Bree on April 17th, 2009 1:35 pm

    Sopy,

    Thank-you… I think. : )

    Once again pointing us to Jesus!  Yes, very good stuff.

    “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

    In Him,

    Bree

  106. Juli on April 17th, 2009 6:28 pm

    Sopy,

    I’m not bringing John an apple, that’s too boring for this blog.

    I’m gonna give him a mango. Cause I think he’s a mango kinda guy. :)

    and, I never want to conform to the rest of the group hahahaha

  107. Juli on April 17th, 2009 6:30 pm

    John, this: “I am telling everyone who will listen the Tyranny is already here.  We are in the second trimester of what will be born a very, very, very bloody fight.   And just like the Lutherans in the Weimar Republic, American Christian Movements are extolling the virtues of sacrifice, and death, abetting the moral justification of sin and selfishness for government TAKING from individuals and giving it to the collective.”

    is decidely NOT David Wilkerson-esque…

    what a refreshment  <giggle>

  108. Sopwith on April 18th, 2009 1:05 am

    Without Your example Jesus, in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation…

    HowDee, Ya’All,

    Ize rememba dis ole sweet prayer:

    *

    Almighty God,

    We make our earnest prayer

    - that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection,

    - that thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government;

    - and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States of America at large.

    And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all

    - to do justice,

    - to love mercy and

    - to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of The Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without whose example in
    these things we can never hope to be a happy nation.

    Grant our supplication, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

    Amen

    *

    Pres. Geo. Washington, April 30th, 1789; Upon entering office as the first President of the United States.

  109. Bree on April 18th, 2009 10:32 am

    John,

    Reading here has greatly opened up my vision. You have big ideas and I’m seeing a much bigger picture now. I’ve been in touch with Juli, and it turns out that some things I learned about on her site, she actually attributed to you.

    I’d like to explain, but I can’t put it into words like I’d like to. I’ll just say this, it’s all coming together for me. Jesus as truth, as my true love, God as love, self as important to Him, and philosophy as something we all live by whether we know it or not–isn’t that what you said?

    I used to see “philosophy” as something to beware of, something that had nothing to do with the truth and God’s Word, now I see that that was my philosophy. I had all this fear to take a look at anything because it might lead me away from God (it had happened before). But I wasn’t even trusting Him. Juli told me to rest easy as I seek the truth in the Holy Spirit since He will lead me into all truth, same thing you said.

    I think I’m just rambling. But the thing is, re-learning that having a sense of self and ownership is O.K. has been HUGE for me. I had lost my self at SGM. And before I coud trust myself to think for myself, I had to know that “self” is O.K. I know I’m not making much sense except that you can probably fill in the holes and see that I am getting somewhere with all that I’ve learned…

    Oh, and about Reformed theology. I do believe in election, but listening to that song MM linked to, “White Man,” which says that God loves everyone, I realized that I wasn’t so sure that was true. I’m sure that not every Calvinist believes that limited atonement means God only loves the elect, but it kind of seems like the logical conclusion. Or maybe my all-or-nothing thinking just can’t accept both. Juli encouraged me to call on God for answers. And whatever the truth may be about limited atonement, I believe now that God does love everyone. Jesus had to obey the second greatest commandment and He is God…

    O.K., this is probably awfully long. I’m just excited that I’m having my eyes opened to truth. It’s amazing. Even in seeing the connections with politics (from what Sopy’s been sharing, too). I used to think everything was separate, but it’s not. See, I can’t explain myself, but I am starting to get it and I’m grateful that you’re sharing here.

    I know there’s a lot of truth I don’t see yet, a lot I have to learn, but I’m excited about getting there and I know as I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me, I will. It’s just really cool to me how what I believe about Jesus could be connected to what I believe about everything else. No, I don’t think everyone is going to agree on everything. But like Juli said, and I think you have, too, we should be seeking truth in God’s Word–and doctrine isn’t the same thing as truth.

    Oh, and last thing, I’ve always known that actions proceed from our hearts, but Juli (yes, she’s really helping me) explained that our beliefs inform our emotions. I know this would probably just be common sense for most, but I have to have things explained for me to really grasp them. So the sadness I’d been feeling isn’t there anymore and, for some reason, knowing it’s directly related to what I believe helps me to have hope and courage–I won’t just fall into that discouragement again for what seemed like no reason. That’s how it used to feel, but I don’t think that was probably true (I know without a doubt that SGM messed me up). And again, this is directly related to what I believe about Jesus. I have Jesus now. Not that I wasn’t saved, but, even though I can’t explain it, I think it’s probably that He increased my faith, opened my eyes. I don’t know. I have hope. Sopy, I have to give you credit here, too. You have the gift of encouragement. I’m very grateful to you. Especially that you kept pointing me to Jesus. (Thomas has that gift, too… thank-you, Thomas.)

    Last thing (really), what you said about Jesus being truth and truth Jesus and then specifically that truth gives value to everything. Believing that is a paradigm shift.

    All done.

    Bree

  110. Juli on April 18th, 2009 12:48 pm

    Bree,

    as John would say - Yeeee haw! :)

    I’m crying right now (really) for joy at what you have shared- and thank you so much for sharing such a personal testimony of that internal shift that has taken place inside of you. For someone like me, getting a glimpse into someone else’s mind is more powerful than glimpsing their heart. For years I have had “crazy thoughts” and I too have only in the last year since leaving SGM found peace in my MIND. I could never have peace in my emotions or life apart from that. There were times I thought I was insane, literally. But I never told anyone that. I was always (still am) accused of “thinking too much” - good grief like that is a bad thing! The thing is, all this thinking all my life has been me pursuing truth with the abilities God gave me- and I won’t apologize for it anymore just because others don’t do the same.

    you said: “I’ve always known that actions proceed from our hearts, but Juli  explained that our beliefs inform our emotions. I know this would probably just be common sense for most, but I have to have things explained for me to really grasp them.”

    this was not common sense to me either! haha for all my thinking I need the same explained to me over time, with much prayer and study… Shortly before I  began going to SGM I made the connection that my behavior was tied to my heart. So I read all those CCEF “counseling” books (Instruments in the Redeemers Hands, the 4 part series, etc.) and was encouraged initially that my actions COULD possibly change if my heart did…and then I realized (as a result of being told) that my heart was wicked, that I was totally depraved, that I could do nothing and I was basically that lump of clay, passive in God’s hands. Yet I still desired to change, but now there was nothing I could do about it. I had no context in which to exersize my faith anymore. And so it died.

    This discouraged me, and then I felt guilty for feeling discouraged! I remember this as if it were yesterday - last summer, I was visiting a church after leaving SGM..and I was thinking during the sermon about election, etc…and why, if I believed what I said I did about election, depravity, predestination, etc…did I ever become a legalist? That was not a logical outcome to those teachings, yet I knew it was quite common in Calvinistic circles - the legalism anyway.

    And I didn’t understand why. The fruit wasn’t matching the teaching.  If God was so sovereign, why was I so scared of falling away? And for that matter, why was my church in an uproar that I would “fall into sin” and that I was deceived (as my pastor told me and others did as well) if they REALLY believed in Perserverance of the saints? Was I not of the elect then? Because either God wasn’t so sovereign after all because He couldn’t “keep me”, I was unregenerate, or the teachings and ideas themselves were bunk.

    Why had I resorted to all sorts of legalistic behaviors as part of my sanctification in order to feel better and earn God’s favor if there was nothing I could EVER contribute to my salvation or sanctification - if I was that passive lump of clay, why in the world would I (or anyone else for that matter) become so discouraged and legalistic over time? And why did it bother me so much that I was supposed to sit back and do nothing and just think about the Cross and how wicked I was and how I deserved hell but grace saved me?

    And then it hit me - because the power of truth, of life, to create and interact with God using our minds, hearts, and yes, WILLS, is so compelling that in the face of a doctrine that strips those things away from us - those things in us react violently - and the way they work out and manifest is in the form of legalism. Legalism is what happens when the doctrines lead to death - because we are SO naturally inclined to LIFE…legalism (ironically) is actually evidence that God created us to interact with Him, with a free will, and with intentional faith.

    This is of course my own belief system after much study, prayer, etc.. and I guess about now, every person who believes we are born depraved and incapable of knowing God or the truth is having a tizzy….but you can clearly see this progressive revelation of truth and ability of man to apprehend it in Scipture, and what began that process moving along for me (after this aha moment last summer) was reading Romans chapter 1.

    anyway, I digressed…but I think you know what I mean. God and I have been talking for years about the questions I have had, the issues, the nagging concerns, all of it - I’ve always been real with him. But only now do I have the tools to change my life through the power of truth, and faith (application of that truth).

    Never before has He been bigger, more sovereign, my faith more alive, my mind more alert, my heart more full, and my life more abundant. All because I asked questions, thought for myself, encountered truth and believed it.

  111. John Immel on April 18th, 2009 1:12 pm

    YEEE HAWWW!!!

    This is me Dancing!! 

    little bit of Charismatic Two step…

    Now some Cabbage Patch….

    and some Tootsie Roll…

    Can’t leave  out the Charlie Brown..

    Bree, i’ve got more to say but just wanted to tell you … you’ve made my month!

  112. Sopwith on April 18th, 2009 1:21 pm

    Juli,

    Blessings!

    You are such a blessing & a strength!  You just don’t know…

    Thank you for sharing your heart.

    It means a lot to me.

    I could not be doing this if it was not for you and what you do for all of us, online.

    May your cup never be empty!

    In a little,

    Sopy

  113. Sopwith on April 18th, 2009 1:27 pm

    Bree,

    What Joy you bring when you are present.

    Now I see why Jesus loves you so much!

    Thank you!  ;~)

    Sopy

  114. Sopwith on April 18th, 2009 1:34 pm

    Dance Lessons…

    Ya know John, ya oughta give lessons!  he he

    …wait  juz uno momento…

    Yaz already do!

    Thanx Bro!

    Gota love it! ;~)

    Sopy

  115. Juli on April 18th, 2009 1:54 pm

    Sopy - thank you, but I’m just sharing the excitement from the truth alive and active in me…I know you know this already, it’s the truth that is so compelling and encouraging in and of itself - all we have to do is believe it….it flows out, we can’t stop it.

    And I doubt my cup will ever be empty again…in fact I know it never will…it will keep flowing over…and that is the abundant life!

    :)

  116. Bree on April 18th, 2009 3:52 pm

    Juli,

    Thank-you for rejoicing with me and for sharing your progression with me. I’ll be sure to reply to your emails later, but I wanted to comment on what you’ve said here.

    I read through your comment twice–the second time more slowly, wanting to really understand and consider all that you shared. I can definitely say that you’ve got me thinking. I really like what you shared about legalism being an outworking of life being squelched in us. Another outcome, it was for me anyway, can be doubting the truth of everything related to Christianity.

    I didn’t really want to join our SG church (I didn’t like the authority), but for my husband and because of some friends we met there, I did. Around that time, I happened to read a series that lead to me learning about objectivism. Of course, it was all about man being autonomous and capitalism and all that. Well, I think that can appeal to anyone, but where I was at that point (dealing with the move, my house being used to served SGM), it really spoke to me. But because I equated SGM with God, because I believed submitting to God meant submitting to the church, in my desire to be free of SGM I was tempted to leave it all behind. My doubts went so far that at the point Jesus drew me back, I could only cling to the hope that He is in control–I felt I couldn’t trust myself at all. And, unfortunately, that began a journey of greater submission to SGM.

    I was sharing with my husband today that at this point I have really bad feelings towards SGM. I don’t know if those feelings are sinful. But the more I understand, the freer I become and the more I have my eyes opened, the more the whole system disgusts me.

    I feel like I’ve come full circle because what appealed to me so much in that series is what I am now learning I have the freedom to embrace. And it doesn’t have to mean walking away from Jesus. As far as I’ve come in my understanding, it means actually coming into a deeper relationship with Him. How cool is that? I’m very eager to learn more about this.

    I’m glad God is being so kind to me in bringing me to this place in my life, and to the blogs and all of you. Well, without the blogs and the good people who share of themselves, I’m sure I wouldn’t be at this place at all. But not only did He pull me out of the mire and set my feet on the Rock, He’s also blessing me with greater truth–setting me free.

    I love hearing of the trust you have in God to show you truth. It’s so good to have that hope–that the Holy Spirit will guide–that I can rest, as you said.

    Blessings,

    Bree

  117. Juli on April 18th, 2009 5:19 pm

    Bree,

    I did that circle as well - so many times I got dizzy! haha

    But in the end, the truth does take root, and you realize (with much relief) that abandoning the things you believed before doesn’t leave you empty handed, and like you said,it actually makes you realize how much MORE you have! And that IS cool.

    I know many people have the same questions we do, the entire emergent church movement is a result of that - people are asking questions, they are good questions that need to be asked, and the church is often unable to answer them. In the absense of the ability and tools and faith to apprehend truth though, we can get a bit wonky in our thinking for a while as we embrace anything and everything in our desperation for answers - but even in that, I don’t despair. I know that for those who have actually left God out of the equation, or even changed who He is in their minds to “fit” their experiences and understandings and confusion and hurt, as long as they keep pursuing truth, they will find it!

    God will reveal Himself to them, just like He did to the patriarchs, and thoughout history. I see the Bible as a story of man finding the One True God, this pursuit of monotheism over polytheism which predominated thinking at the time, a quest for the truth, and God revealing Himself to mankind in a very personal and individual way. It’s a beautiful story full of mistakes, anger, heartaches, peace, pain, victory, loss, suffering, joy, love…and in the end, for those who perservere, they find abundant life, and eternal life.

    What a wonderful life it is! And He is with us all the way…

  118. John Immel on April 18th, 2009 5:39 pm

    Bree…
     
    Arriving at the understanding that Emotions are informed by the combination our values and integrated ideas is a huge development. 
     
    For most people their emotional state is this amorphous, causeless vacuum.  I’m happy today … just because.  I’m sad today … just because.  I feel guilt today… just because. 
     
    Existing in this fashion is worse than being adrift at sea with no rudder.  It is more like being shipwrecked and having no navigation ability at all, and no sight to even start swimming in a direction.   Every wave is like a unprecedented event.  The wash of emotion is mixed an ever increasing anxiety: are these right, appropriate, justifiable feelings?  But how can they be helped?  How can they be controlled?  I am a victim of my own psyche!!!
     
    Add a body of teaching to the mix that one is NEVER justified in having an emotion not proscribed by or validated by an authority…
     
    This is the recipe for hopelessness and despair. Carried to its logical end ends up in suicide.  (there are those reading that know exactly what I am refering too)
     
    But understanding that the source of emotions are the outworking of values and personal philosophy, immediately puts a person in charge of the sum of them SELVES.  What makes you happy or sad, or afraid or angry or love, are all reflections of Values.  And all human’s arrive at values by integrating ideas and taking actions towards or away from those values. 
     
    Most people get lost because they don’t understand their own values.  And most people don’t understand their own values because they are passive thinkers refusing to deliberately focus on the content—cause and effect—of their own thinking.  And then they let some group of men spoon feed them an entire philosophical synthesis and demagogue good and bad emotions and wonder why they are so miserable.
     
    Bree, your realization is huge.  It is the fast track to getting out from underneath all of the guilt and condemnation, and fear, and moving towards Joy, and Peace and confidence an life living abandon! 
     
    In a bit,
     
    John

  119. Bree on April 18th, 2009 5:45 pm

    I’ve always wanted to take dance lessons…

    Sopy,

    I feel like I haven’t adequately expressed my appreciation to you. I don’t think I can. You don’t know how much of a blessing you were/are in my life. The things that you shared, I listened, but I was so lost. But you didn’t give up. You kept reaching out to me and for that I am indebted to you. I don’t know how you could know, but just what I needed to hear was just what you shared. More than once, I was completely baffled. You truly are Jesus’ Sopy.

    So even though I’ve said it a few times, thank-you for being Jesus’ Sopy and caring for this girl. I can’t say it enough.

    I pray the Lord richly blesses you for what you have done.

    In Him,

    Bree

  120. John Immel on April 18th, 2009 6:07 pm

    Gotta dance!!  Get out your shoes!

    I’ll be at http://www.wannaboogieweekend.com/hotel.html

    In May 7-9.  Look for the tall guy shaking it on the hardwood.

    I’m hard to miss…. the look for the euphoric smile!

    Be glad to teach anyone who wants to learn.

  121. Juli on April 18th, 2009 6:23 pm

    Just thinking……the future ruler of the world likes to boogie - what could be more perfect (and fun) than THAT? :)

    sure beats tyranny any day…that, and much more interesting than Clinton playing a saxophone

  122. Canary on April 19th, 2009 12:22 pm

    I’m here and I’m reading, and I just want to say, “great conversation!”  This is meat, guys.  It’s yummy to my soul.

  123. Juli on April 19th, 2009 8:05 pm

    Canary - hmm…..I’m soooo confused, how is it you are able to be “fed” and your soul nourished by a, uh, ahem…. a lowly BLOG such as this?

    Does this perhaps mean that truth can be proliferated by means of the blogosphere, and there is perhaps a possibility of something intelligent being said? And could people actually benefit from this?? Ahhh! The horror of it all!!

    I’m just messing with ya…:)

    I’ve just been told more than once in the past few months by SGMers that blogs are not the proper medium for spiritual growth, edification or instruction, and “real” encouragement, teachings, and relationships happen in “real” life and face to face. So by their definition, I guess all we are experiencing online is just a figment of our imaginations. I have quite a bit of an imagination, but seriously, I doubt I am on the fast track to senility and delusion as a result of blogging.

    yeah….whatever. And by the way, this was told to me by a person who reads Piper’s blog (along with several other Refroemd bloggers) religiously and sends me links that he thinks I could benefit from.

    I think the fact that they can’t control freedom of speech/independent thinking that happens on the internet is the real cause of the corn cob obstruction they have. :)

  124. John Immel on April 19th, 2009 8:45 pm

    Yeah blogging is illegitimate communication, because it is not personal and face to face.  But sell CD’s and tapes by the pound.   Oh the irony.  Discredit the medium and desecrated the communicator. 
     
    Makes me laugh lots….
     
    The church has had this same argument with EVERY new form of mass communication.  We are sooooo flipping predictable. 
     
    An ancient Newspaper Proverb: Never go to war with a guy who buys his ink by the barrel. 
     
    New Blog Proverb:  You’re screwed because now Homie John doesn’t buy ink!

  125. Sopwith on April 19th, 2009 9:25 pm

    “No Ink?!?…”

    Letz me tell ya…

    Dem One’s & Zero’s ain’t cheep, John…

    One’s & Zero’s by de Terabite?…     he he

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

    In a Mega_BIT, ;~)  >snicker<

    Sopy

  126. Sopwith on April 19th, 2009 9:32 pm

    Hey Dan, yous gots your “transporter” work’in?

    John has got dis here shin’dig go’in…

    Yous got your shoes?

    Sopy

  127. Canary on April 19th, 2009 9:41 pm

    Ha-ha!  Churches aren’t the only ones trying to censor communication.  What about the libs who want to wipe out talk radio?  Ah, it’s nothing new.  Hitler burning books, Christians burned at the stake for “heresy”…it’s all about controlling ideas and the spread of them.

    As for blogging, and not knowing each other face to face, isn’t alot of our New Testament made up of LETTERS???

  128. Sopwith on April 19th, 2009 10:34 pm

    Red, The Pledge, and America’s Edge…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_tBqrHMoTs

    -Sopy

  129. Sopwith on April 20th, 2009 12:08 am

    “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.”

    -William Butler Yeats

  130. Juli on April 20th, 2009 2:46 am

    Good point Canary!

    By SGM’s definition, the Romans should have NEVER received Paul’s instructions or exhortations because, after all, he had yet to even preach to them in person! Maybe they should have discredited him as a whacknut instead and the church not canonize that letter.

    implying that personal relationship is the prerequisite to knowledge and learning reveals a spirit of control like nothing else.

    but then they contradict themselves. Because it really isn’t about relationship and they know it, it’s about the CONTENT of the ideas being presented - if they agree with them, then go for it, if not, then they throw all kinds of justifications for why it’s wrong.

    this reminds me of the time I told my care group leader I was hesitant to buy the ESV just because everyone else was in our care group, after all, I never even heard of it before and didn’t want to just follow the crowd…then my care group leader gave me a puzzled look and said that he didn’t feel compelled to research the version himself, because “if it’s good enough for Piper, Sproul and Mohler, it’s good enough for me!”

    oy vey.

    free thinking? what’s that?

    what a bunch of lemmings.

  131. Dan on April 20th, 2009 8:14 am

    “Why waste your breath moaning at the crowd?
    Nothing can be done to stop the shouting.
    If every tongue were stilled
    The noise would still continue.
    The rocks and stone themselves would start to sing”

    My Transporter is doing well Sopy, thanks.

  132. Bree on April 20th, 2009 11:09 am

    Hi all,

    Since John gave us the go ahead on politics, I just thought I’d share what I’d been thinking. Did anyone else see the protest at UNC? That was scary. Not just the violence, but the idiocy. Do these protesters even realize what they’re promoting with their mob mentality? Do they even appreciate they’re freedoms? They were trying to prevent free speech and even broke a window in their zealotry. Very scary.

    And also the CNN reporter at one of the Tea Party protests who said the protesters were anti-government.  The liberals are painting a picture of conservatives as being dangerous. Not just CNN, but that whole Homeland Security thing that suggests pro-lifers and veterans could be a threat. What’s up with that?

    Woe to those who call evil good 
           and good evil, 
           who put darkness for light 
           and light for darkness, 
           who put bitter for sweet 
           and sweet for bitter. Is. 5:20

    It’s just what SOME people thought would happen if you-know-who got in. But how far might it go? The control the media has over people’s thinking is very frightening. And you know, when they’ll say anything they want to get what they want… the truth is just one thing, but a lie can be anything. And they’re not worried about lying.

    Sorry if this is too much on this, but the reality just struck me upside the head and it’s a very real concern.

    During the Presidential race, our pastor encouraged us to vote, but at the same time to not become cycnical, and especially to remember that Jesus is the One who reigns. And while I think there was good in that, and I definitely needed the reminder, at the same time, we can’t bury our heads in the sand.

    The liberal media isn’t just pushing their own agenda, they’re trying to squelch free speech, as Canary pointed out. They’ve actually done it to some degree.

    O.K., I’m done.

    “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” Teach them to think for themselves.

    Bree

  133. Bree on April 20th, 2009 11:37 am

    Sopy,

    Thanks for linking to Red Skeleton’s monologue. I’d never seen that before. The way he explains it, it sounds like he’s talking about a bygone era. How sad.

    Bree

  134. Bree on April 20th, 2009 11:57 am

    Juli,

    You said,

    Never before has He been bigger, more sovereign, my faith more alive, my mind more alert, my heart more full, and my life more abundant. All because I asked questions, thought for myself, encountered truth and believed it.

    This is profound and fills me with hope. I just wanted to highlight it. Thanks, friend.

    In Him,

    Bree

  135. Canary on April 20th, 2009 12:49 pm

    I believe Americans will only take so much.  Alot of us are law-abiding citizens, living our lives quietly without much notice.  There will come a certain point when we will stand and say, “Enough!”  For instance, when gas prices reached $4.00 a barrel, we began driving less.  Enough was enough.  Gas prices dropped like a lead brick off a steep cliff.

    Americans are buying guns today at such a rate that Obama has felt the need to place radio ads around the country, stating that he is NOT going to remove our gun rights.  Obviously, the fact that manufacturers are having such a difficult time keeping up with the demand for guns from the American public is alarming to our President. Citizens know that their right to bear arms is under serious threat, now.  My 73 year-old mother is going to use her tax rebate to buy a handgun, just in support of our second amendment rights.  She’ll probably never use it, but she gets a sense of satisfaction knowing that she used her tax return to stand and say “enough”!

    So, when will the Body of Christ reach its point, saying, “Enough!”  Do they have a limit on how much control they will allow over their lives?  My limit was when we were being forced to confess the “sin of the week” in care group.  Do other members of authoritarian churches have their “$4.00 limit”?  Will those who shout “enough” be like the shot that was heard around the world?

    Let’s hope so.  It isn’t right that there should be an institution within these great United States that promotes slavery over a person’s soul.  I can see Americans rising up with their tea party protests and buying of guns making a difference in our country, more than I can see church members sending THEIR pastors a bunch of tea bags to protest their tything without representation!  Christians have been so long enslaved to the idea that a pastor is above them, that they don’t even realize they are owned, as they dwell in a land that is suppose to represent freedom!

  136. Bree on April 20th, 2009 12:52 pm

    Canary,

    Well said. SGM makes use of freedom of religion and then they use it to take up their own tyranny and put chains on people causing them to actually lose that freedom. I remember thinking (while there) that our country is great, but it is worldly after all…. yuck. That I should want to defend my own slavery.

    How could I have believed that God meant for me to live in bondage to men?

  137. Sopwith on April 20th, 2009 1:48 pm

    Dan,

    Greetings!, (I’ze was juz’a wonder’in where you woz?)

    Thank-You!

    Very Pro_found comment!  Very Pro_found Indeed!

    Come on rocks…I can’t hear YOU! >snicker<

    *

    Beem me up, Jesus!  >he he<

    *

    In the twinkling of an eye,  ;~)

    Sopy

  138. Sopwith on April 20th, 2009 2:22 pm

    “Mommy, Mommy, why doz  little men run’in round wit sand coming out chez ears?”

    Bree,

    You go Girl!  >grin<

    You said: “…we can’t bury our heads in the sand.”

    Your right again, Yes the funny thing is… That SGM is isn’t de only one with plenty O’ sand!   >snicker<

    “I’ze Standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made me free, and no neva be’in entangled again with the yoke of SGM bondage, or anybudys bondage fer dat matter…”

    >Honk! Honk!<

    A free, Sopy
    (“FREE at last, FREE at last — thank GOD ALMIGHTY, I’m FREE at last!”)

  139. Sopwith on April 20th, 2009 3:39 pm

    “A Cleared & Integrated Path- A Profound Solution For The Future”

    Yez, Dem wonderful folks at 58_East 68th_Street, in da big_apple, think day have helped ta form a“cleared” and “integrated path”, and days right, day have…   O’ have day…  thank you very, very much!

    For Jesus!  >he he<

    They juz don’t know it yet.  >snicker<

    Should we tell um?

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

    I’ze rememba deze things:

    Wherefore I, Apostle Paul, also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And has put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him that fills all in all...

    And also gave Him to be the Head over all the nations of the earth…
    *
    For bodily exercise has little profit: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come…
    *
    Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him, Jesus, which is, and which was, and which is to come… (–The Apostle John to “Revelations’” seven churches in Asia)
    *
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty…
    *
    …And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come…

    *

    Don’t be a forgett’in Dear Kind Folks, Jesus intends to “Win”…
    He has His Father, and all of His Heaven…

    He don’t give no never mind what doze “Profound” little men wit de sand coming out dar cheezy widdle ears…Do!

    dittle, dittle, dumpling…

    So’s ya bedder be on de win’in team, ya hear?

    Bus is leav’in…

    In the twinkling of an eye,  ;~)

    Sopy

  140. Canary on April 20th, 2009 4:01 pm

    Bree,

    It makes me squirm to think that I once allowed myself to be enslaved by the doctrine of men.  What was I thinking?  Oh, that’s right.  I wasn’t…

  141. Bree on April 20th, 2009 4:40 pm

    Good one, Canary.  ; )

  142. Bree on April 20th, 2009 5:01 pm

    Sopy,

    May I ask what you’re referencing up there?  I figured out foreign affairs…

    I guess there’s a balance between seeking first the kingdom of God and being mindful of the current state of affairs.  Or maybe it’s not balance… Jesus is all in all, right? I think I’m just starting to think in a way that’s integrated and I have a lot to learn. I’ll keep listening and praying and hopefully figure this thinking-all-by-myself thing out.

    Bree

  143. Juli on April 20th, 2009 5:09 pm

    Canary - you mentioned the “$4.00 limit”….haha

    for the record, my limit is MUCH lower these days. Like 2 cents, if that. I have zero tolerance for people who attempt to own my thoughts, motives, or decsions in any manner anymore. And the thing is, I am CONSTANTLY seeing that people do this ALL THE TIME and think it OK, because that is the mindset they live in now. They are so inbred as to think that sacrifice is a good and natural thing, but they never stop to consider that when it comes to sacrifice, someone is GIVING and someone is RECEIVING.

    Or as Ayn Rand put it so perfectly:

    It only stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.

  144. Canary on April 20th, 2009 5:17 pm

    Juli,

    Yes, after your experience I can see why you have a two cent limit.  I must admit to reaching that place, myself.  I react strongly on my insides when someone “out there” tries to intimidate or control me.  If God doesn’t use intimidation to control me, why should others feel free to?  If the Lord has set me free, I am FREE INDEED!

  145. Juli on April 20th, 2009 8:48 pm

    Amen sister (Canary) - Amen!

    I love the looks on people’s faces when you really don’t CARE what they think and you have peace and there is nothing they can do to take it away from you.

    When you don’t try to justify your self or your reasoning, they get all flustered and irritated because they know they can’t MAKE you…at first it bugged me this overreaction on their part and I did feel the need to respond, but now I am learning to just keep my mouth shut (imagine that!) and laugh, cause it’s much more fun!

  146. John Immel on April 20th, 2009 9:01 pm

    >ominous deep voice< 

    JULI…

    >ragged breathing<

    I am your father….

    >ragged breathing<

    Come to the dark side….

  147. Juli on April 20th, 2009 10:43 pm

    John - ahahahah! I’m already so there.

    Already know you that which you need… Yoda

    Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view
    Obi-Wan

    I have this fantasy that I walk into my old SGM church and say: “When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master.”

    bahahaha! just for the look on their faces…priceless laughter.

  148. Canary on April 20th, 2009 11:02 pm

    Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! It’s Darth Immel!

    Hey saints, I’ve been thinking (uh-oh, watch out, putty cat!).  It seems to me that women might experience freedom in Christ in a unique and powerful way, since we females were the ones kept “in our places”, like children’s ministry and nursery and cooking meals, etc.  We weren’t allowed to think freely for ourselves.  Read the newest post over at Survivor’s.  It’s an incredible story about a woman falsely accused simply because the pastor had an inner conflict about her.

    So Juli, what do you think?  Could that be why so many women post on these blogs?  Freedom is a particularly tasty morsel to our palate-weary -post -church lives.  With freedom comes flavor!  We can actually discover who we were meant to be!  You know what?  I don’t LIKE to clean.  I like to WRITE!   I don’t like Christian pop music as much as I do country music, which seems to help my inner calm.  Oh, and I can go out in a white blouse without some leader guy telling me he can see my brazerre (oh my!  what a shock! she has boom-booms!).  Oops, sorry.  I’m only trying to show the ridiculous!  You women know what I’m talking about.

    So, finding freedom for a woman might be like a black man being set free.  It’s a shock.  He doesn’t know quite what to do with himself, or how to handle his life because someone else always managed him.  But once he figures out what his freedom cost, and what it means for his future, look out!  Peanut butter, street lights, and the cotton gin!

    I wonder what will happen in the church at large once more women discover they have been freed in Christ, and begin to think for themselves.

    Sorry for going off subject, John.  Absolutely no offense meant to any man reading this.  I just had to make more “fodder” to feed my putty tat, if you know what I mean.  Guess I’ve reached my “$4.00 limit ” in how the church traditionally views womanhood.  Okay, I’m off my soap box…

  149. Canary on April 20th, 2009 11:05 pm

    Hey Jules,

    Can I be your apprentice?  I’ve always wanted to levitate my Durango…

  150. CD-Host on April 20th, 2009 11:52 pm

    Great post!   Deserves a lengthy response.  I’m thinking of writing a full post on it.  Since I want to quote large excepts wanted to make sure you were cool with that before going ahead and quoting full paragraphs.

  151. Sopwith on April 21st, 2009 5:43 pm

    I can just see the SGM headlines now, John :

    “Inky Dinky Don’t!  Square Dunce in WondaRoos!”

    You walked right into that one!  >snicker<

    he he

    Sopy

  152. Juli on April 21st, 2009 9:29 pm

    Canary - about women being more outspoken post SGM - yeah, I think so, that coupled with the fact that most SGM men have no idea what a real man is (sorry guys, but that’s how I see it anyway)

    It’s disgusitng what they do to both men and women…of course my disgust with what they do with women hits personally, but honestly, so does the impact on men - because my son was there - watching and learning. And as a single woman, it totally messed me up as far as what I’d look for in a man…at one point I was thinking I’d be better off single the rest of my life :)

    as far as being my apprentice  haha - hmmm….I am not at master level yet, I am still an apprentice myself, but if you wanna get together, just us apprentices, and give it a go (levitating your Durango) sounds good to me! You got insurance, right??

    We’ll work our way up to invisibility - then we can remove all the hidden microphones in CJ’s office and save on all those transcription costs…

    hahah

  153. Dan on April 22nd, 2009 7:54 am

    Oy — Juli (you started it) — what is a real man to you (I couldn’t resist)…

  154. Canary on April 22nd, 2009 12:15 pm

    Juli,

    Yes, I have insurance for my Durango.  Not sure if it covers levitation.  I’d really like to learn how to wave my hand and put a thought into someone’s head, like Luke Skywalker.  Naaah, that’s what certain SGM leaders do, and we see where that got us…okay, let’s learn invisibility. :)

  155. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 12:25 pm

    I’m not a gal with really high standards…Thinks and breathes on his own for starters …hehehehe

    I suppose it’s easier to first say what he’s not: he doesn’t allow someone else to define his masculinity. Even the men in his life. It’s something he just is and believes.

    He’s not under the control of others in any way - it’s that simple. He is free, confident of who He is in Christ, and all his decisions and actions flow out of that.

    You know what it is when you see it, and you certainly know what it looks like when you don’t.

    As an aside, I think the reason (one of them) men struggle with their identity as men so much, is because the women are jacked up as well (as a result of the feminist movement) and they don’t have a clue about what being a woman is either…but that is a post in and of itself..

    so put the two together and you get a huge mess…and then add some wonky “Christian” doctrine and you’ve just curdled an already soured mix

  156. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 12:29 pm

    Canary - why limit ourselves to simple jedi mind tricks or one power when we can rule the world and have it all - we can be the Wonder Twins!

    Remember them?

    “Wonder Twin Powers - ACTIVATE!”

    “Form of…”

    and then we get to fill in the blank….talk about awesome!

    hahahah

  157. John Immel on April 22nd, 2009 12:54 pm

    She has Boom Booms!  

    HAHAHAHAHA
     hahahahahaha
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    I am still rolling… Not sure how I missed that line. 

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

    And Canary… no offence taken here.  I think I have long since set the threshold substantially past the PG-13. 

    The adults are having a converstation here… the kiddie swings are over by the wading pool. 

  158. Dan on April 22nd, 2009 1:01 pm

    Good answer Juli — interesting thing is, the kind of women I am looking for is not much different than your description.

    Ah well, the wheel just keeps turning and turning….

    What goes up must come down
    spinning wheel got to go round
    Talking about your troubles it’s a crying sin
    Ride a painted pony
    Let the spinning wheel spin

    You got no money, and you, you got no home
    Spinning wheel all alone
    Talking about your troubles and you, you never learn
    Ride a painted pony
    let the spinning wheel turn

    Did you find a directing sign
    on the straight and narrow highway?
    Would you mind a reflecting sign
    Just let it shine within your mind
    And show you the colours that are real

    Someone is waiting just for you
    spinning wheel is spinning true
    Drop all your troubles, by the river side
    Catch a painted pony
    On the spinning wheel ride

    Someone is waiting just for you
    spinning wheel is spinning true
    Drop all your troubles, by the river side
    Ride a painted pony
    Let the spinning wheel fly

  159. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 1:54 pm

    A white blouse with boom booms….wow, just don’t get near that kiddy pool or you’ll end up in a wet t-shirt contest Canary! :)

    SGM women need to loosen up and so do the men. The things we obsessed over, good grief, so silly now to think of it. Life and death does not hinge of the amount of cleavage I am showing - and certainly my eternal state doesn’t. 

    there are some sick and twisted puppies in SGM - I would not trust an “SGM man” for a second..they are too repressed and deceived and under the control of someone else, and that just freaks me out.

    I wanted to vomit at NA last year (the first and last time I went) the men were just, well, pathetic. Just watching them was irritating. And don’t get me started on the giggly girls.

    I didn’t go to any functions these were just those I saw about dowtown…we had skipped out on the festivities and hit the waterfront Beatles Fest instead…I think I must be going to hell now for that.  :)

  160. Dan on April 22nd, 2009 2:22 pm

    You are a women of taste Juli — the Beatles — best band of all time!

  161. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 2:26 pm

    <snort> I would have gone to a Barry Manilow Luau just to avoid the NA conference…

    a root canal would also have been a pleasant alternative

  162. Dan on April 22nd, 2009 2:33 pm

    !!!  Do you have something against Barry Manilow?

  163. John Immel on April 22nd, 2009 2:55 pm

    yeah… don’t mess with Dan and Barry Manilow!  He’ll start singing the Copa Cabanna!

    And Juli….  that would be Snark “First among Equals…”  don’t want to give away my ulitmate plot to soon.

  164. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 3:28 pm

    Dan…sorry, no, don’t care for Barry (or his wardrobe) guess I am not the perfect woman after all - you would have figured it out eventually the more you read my posts…I’ve been told recently that I’m bossy and always want to be in control  :)

    John - no worries, they don’t think you have what it takes the rule the world - they don’t take a guy blogging in his underoos in his mom’s basement seriously, remember?

    Sorry to break it to you, but you just have the wrong last name. If it was Piper and not Immel, they’d let you blog naked in a whore house, simply because of who you were and what you were saying.

    It never was about the method of communication, it’s about WHO is saying it and WHAT is being said. If they agree, all good. If not, well…you’re bad for using such a non-personal method of communication and not upholding “relationship” I am SO SICK of hearing that….guess we can thank some apostle (Shank or Cabannis perhaps?) for proliferating that nonsensical logic to the local pastors. do they KNOW how stupid they sound when they say that?

    wankers, the whole lof of ‘em..

  165. Dan on April 22nd, 2009 3:39 pm

    I can tell you would have fit in well at a SGM church (this is sarcasm)!  What?  You have a mind and can think for yourself?  Preposterous!
    It is not being bossy and controlling when you say what you mean and you mean what you say…since when did directness and honest communication become a crime?

    (And I suppose it is not a good time to mention I am also a fan of show tunes…)
     :)

  166. John Immel on April 22nd, 2009 3:40 pm

    Wankers… let it for ever be said that this is a multi cultural blog.  Wouldn’t want to leave out the Brits now would we?

    uh… Juli… did someone do bad things to your wheates today?  

  167. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 3:56 pm

    John, no we bloody well wouldn’t want to leave the Brits out :)

    and I don’t eat Wheaties - the athletic men on the front make me lust too much and I can’t finish my breakfast.

    hahahah

  168. Dan on April 22nd, 2009 4:01 pm

    Wankers…what a great word.  Juli is exta fiesty today…(I mean that in a good way Juli…)

  169. John Immel on April 22nd, 2009 4:06 pm

    yeah… uh… good word.  It means … uh… meany.  at least that is what my mom told me. 

  170. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 4:07 pm

    Fiesty = unsubmissive and bossy

    see? I told you I was   :)

    (by some people’s definitions, I know not yours though)

    generally speaking, men who find me unsubmissive and bossy tend to be doormats. So I just wipe my feet and move on.

    Can’t waste time convicing men they can be more than that - and you would respect them more for it - and I refuse to exchange places with them in order for them to believe it.

  171. Juli on April 22nd, 2009 4:11 pm

    sorry :) I guess I am fiesty today. But I just like the word, ok??

  172. Sopwith on April 22nd, 2009 5:21 pm

    HowDee, Ya’All,
    “The last time I saw Paris, her heart was warm and gay,
    I heard the laughter of her heart in every street café
    The last time I saw Paris, her trees were dressed for spring,
    And lovers walked beneath those trees and birds found songs to sing.
    I dodged the same old taxicabs that I had dodged for years.
    The chorus of their squeaky horns was music to my ears.
    The last time I saw Paris, her heart was warm and gay,
    No matter how they change her, I’ll remember her that way…”

    Simplement magnifique !  :-)

    Le Sopy  Note:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bVw0DKdK-o

  173. Sopwith on April 22nd, 2009 5:37 pm

    HowDee, Ya’All,
    *
    “The last time I saw Paris…”
    *

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4B8YPNyTQc&feature=related
    *
    Simplement magnifique !  :-)
    *
    Le Sopy 

  174. Juli on April 23rd, 2009 3:37 pm

    Sop, I guess between my fiesty British slang, and your smattering of German and French/Creole references, this truly is a multi-cultural blog.

    Blimey! how cool is that? :)

  175. musicman on April 23rd, 2009 6:34 pm

    hmmmn….I’m uncomfortable with the talk of comparing our freedom in Christ to gun ownership.  You know-the whole live  by the sword die by the sword. 

    I’m also uncomfortable with labeling the media as leftist…I work in the media and some of the most dishonest reporting I’ve ever seen has been from Christian media and Conservative talk radio.  Dishonesty and hidden motives happen in all political corners of the spectrum.  To frame it as Conservatives truthful and Liberals as dishonest- is a false dualism. 

    respectfully-mm

  176. musicman on April 23rd, 2009 7:06 pm

    I should clarify my previous comment…I work in a media company,  not in the media as a reporter or editor.

  177. Bree on April 23rd, 2009 7:13 pm

    musicman,

    Hi.

    I don’t think conservatives are always truthful or liberals are always dishonest.  Did I say that exactly?  Well, actually, I guess I kind of do think of the liberal media as being dishonest (I think I said mainstream media).  That doesn’t mean that I think Fox isn’t dishonest ever.  Of course they are.

    I was thinking specifically of those who are trying to keep our country from becoming socialist and how they’re being discredited and labeled falsely (and those I was referring to happen to be conservatives).  So I said that a lie can be anything–that gives those who will lie lots of options.  But those who tell the truth in their defense–they have only one option. That doesn’t mean that Tea Party protestors don’t lie.  But for those who are being falsely labled, etc., they have a lot to fight against when those who have no problem lying take up an offensive position against them.  I would guess that some fight it with lies.  Maybe I was just thinking of myself and those who intend to stand on truth–of law, etc. which is what the Tea Party is about–the truth of what our country was founded to be and transparency. You know, I actually don’t know enough about politics to speak confidently about this.  I would guess that there are democrats at the Tea Parties, since it isn’t about being Republican or Democrat.  But I kind of think that being opposed to big government and taxes does make one conservative.  But like I said, I don’t really know enough and probably shouldn’t have said anything in the first place. It was on my mind and when I read and learn, I tend to end up feeling passionate and take my position. (And socialism seemed to fit into the topic here–being controlled, losing our freedoms, being told that it’s for the good of the whole.)

    Sometimes Christians lie.  Sometimes conservative politicians lie.  I think being a politician makes it hard not to lie.  And I don’t believe that the liberals or liberal media always lie.  But I was just referring to some specific things and I don’t think I meant exactly what you said. Unless I’m misunderstanding you.

    Peace?

    Bree

  178. musicman on April 24th, 2009 12:58 am

    Bree-

    No you didn’t say that exactly….I apologize if it seemed I put words in your mouth.  I hesitate on politics because in many Christian circles I’ve seen a “Conservative good…liberal bad” type of mentality.  I was just weighing in with some thoughts spurred on by some of the comments.

    peace-mm

  179. Sopwith on April 24th, 2009 1:29 am

    *
    *
    Madame, Vous êtes trop plaisant !
    *
    “And this is the testimony: God has given us life eternal, and that life is only found in His Dear Sweet Son…”
    *
    Blessings!
    *

    Le Sopy
    *
    P.S. I’ze was out wit de crows day befo yestaday and I’ze say ta Jesus, “dat crow looks hungry, feed um Lord!”  We’lls da Lord, dang if He didn’t says tas me:  “You feed um…”
    *
    I’se did, I’ze reached back and gives him da remainder of my’s lunch…
    *
    What does dis here Crow do?  Why he shares some of does french-frys with brother Squirrel … 
    *
    Isn’t dat someth’in…

  180. Bree on April 24th, 2009 12:40 pm

    Sopy,

    I guess there’s only one *small* danger in feeding crows. And you probably already know this, but crows are smart birds–very smart birds–and if you feed them, they remember, and they’ll follow you all over the place just hoping for more…

    but I suspect you already knew this…

  181. Juli on April 24th, 2009 12:58 pm

    Bree,
    We feeds several birds at my house - my son always puts out a ton of birdseed (to which I say - “ever wonder what the expression “eats like a bird” means son?”) hehe

    English sparrows annoy me to no end, and I think the saying “God takes care of the sparrow” surely didn’t refer to the variety we have here in North America. This variety is nothing but a nuisance.

    They eat seeds, not insects, and dominate every single potential home and feeder, extending their boundaries beyond what other birds would…and are completely comfortable doing so.

    I love nature and reality. So much truth in it, so many examples of what takes place time and again - nothing new under the sun. Just observe nature and you can come to understand all sorts of things.

  182. Bree on April 24th, 2009 1:12 pm

    Juli,

    I’m afraid I’ve been neglecting my birds as of late… And so I missed the call of the red-winged black bird. We get plenty of weaver finches (also called the house sparrow, I think), juncos when they migrate, and goldfinches, oh, and house finches.  I enjoy nature, too. Suburbs make me sad… : (  No chickadees, maybe just need more time for the trees to grow… too few trees.

    Silly me.

    But you’re right, we can learn much from creation.

  183. Juli on April 24th, 2009 4:39 pm

    I love how natural occurances are outworkings of some aspect of truth - be it spiritual, physical, etc..and when this is disrupted to any degree, it is usually a result of man’s ability to create, destroy, intervene, etc…and things change. The power man has over nature is amazing. I find that fascinating (and sad at times of course depending on man’s choices)

  184. Sopwith on April 25th, 2009 3:12 am

    Bree,  (Crown)

    Wonderful! 

    My Father loves His little crows…they follow Him justa everywheres…

    The Father loves His dear Sopy,

    And Sopy follows Him..juz’ta everywheres…Too!

    Now da Father askes him ta feed His crows, too!

    Sweet Jesus, I love dis man!

    *

    Dat reminds me of a tune…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYDc7QIFsM8&feature=related
    Kelsey Bryant sings Heal Over, a KT Tunstall tune.
    (Gods’ crows can be heard in the background!) he he

    Enjoy!  (I’ze likes dis toon!)

    Blessings!  ;~)

    Sopy

    (and ma prayers!)

    Kelsey Bryant, needs Jesus…she just doesn’t know it yet…
    She doesen’t know that we are a pray’in!
    Praise, Jesus…

  185. Paul Balluff on April 25th, 2009 7:09 am

    “I advocate you read CJ’s editorial, Standing in the Very Stead of God, (12) found on his blog.”

    I did and this stood out

    Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in The Preacher and Preaching. Packer writes,

    God’s standard way of securing and maintaining His person-to-person communication with us His human creatures is through the agency of persons whom He sends to us as His messengers.…Such were the prophets and apostles, and such supremely was Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son.…That is the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.

    It’s sobering that this is “the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.” The moment of preaching is not simply one in which you—by virtue of your job or by virtue of the nameplate on your office door—get to stand up and share some thoughts. No. You are not sharing thoughts. You are not Jay Leno. You are not a talking head. You are standing in the very stead of God.

    Oh, that is a frightening thing.

  186. Bree on April 25th, 2009 9:15 am

    : )

    Thank-you, Jesus! So blessed indeed.
    “…and He heard me.”

  187. Bree on April 25th, 2009 9:54 am

    Paul,

    Hi. I’m sorry, I’m not sure I’ve seen you around before.  So I don’t know if you’re in agreement with CJ and Packer on this, or not. I have read that before and I do think it is a frightening thing–that CJ puts men on a pedestal, like he forgot about the New Covenant or something. The closest anyone in the NT came to standing in the stead of God was the men who, by inspiration, wrote the Word of God. But I’m certain even they would never have claimed to stand in God’s stead. They pointed people to Christ who is God, not to themselves.

    John, a pretty important, actual prophet, said, “I am not the Christ, but…I am sent before him.”  And, “He must increase, but I must decrease.”  Seems if anyone could have said he stood in the stead of God, it would be a prophet.

    I will say this about CJ, he’s fearless.

    Blessings,

    Bree

  188. Canary on April 25th, 2009 1:02 pm

    It is in reading quotes from men like CJ that helps me to understand the contolling leader’s thinking.  It explains much that I saw over the years.  If I had known then what I am learning now, I would have never agreed to be a member!  Why didn’t these men tell us that they believed they stood in the very “stead of God”?  I’m sure if this had gotten around the churches, gotten to my own ears, I would have never stayed as long as I did.

    I wonder if they share these sorts of things with new members?  How many would truly commit themselves to baloney like that?  I guess I’m saying that it is deceptive of leaders to believe something as outrageous as this and not share it with their followers.  Is there a reason they don’t?

  189. Sopwith on April 25th, 2009 1:04 pm

    Paul,

    Sir, we would see Jesus.

  190. Bree on April 25th, 2009 1:20 pm

    Canary,

    I shared this article (or whatever it is) with a friend while we were still attending and she believed that my view of it was affected by the blogs. She said she understood what he was saying (as in, it was not a bad thing). There was a time, I would have fallen for it, too–when the leaders/church took the place of Christ in my life. But learning about it on my way out of SGM, I could see more clearly. I was deceived, no doubt. And yet I am responsible.

    Maybe if I’d known this belief before we initially joined…yes, then I think we would have turned and run. You’re right, they ought to share it as part of the new members class so people, while still in control of their minds, can make an informed choice about joining.

    In Him,

    Bree

  191. Juli on April 25th, 2009 4:54 pm

    Bree, I think CJ is fearless because he has dictated his own good to himself - something anyone else not standing in the stead of God is unable to do.

    Quite convenient for him, and others who claim this supposed “divine right and righteousness”…that this can be attained by some who are totally depraved, but not by others (like you and me) who are totally depraved.

    They can’t have it both ways - they are synthesizing the doctrine to fit their needs. Again, convenient.

  192. Bree on April 26th, 2009 11:24 pm

    Juli,

    No doubt. I’m certain CJ does not believe that his righteousness is only imputed to him. However he might explain it, this “divine right,” as you call it, implies that some are better than others, or maybe even more acceptable to God than others.

    I listened to a little bit of Gene Emerson’s message that was posted over at the refuge today.  Did you listen, too?  I couldn’t listen for long, but I did hear him explain to the congregation how they were doing a good thing, everyone would see that they were sending their “best” of the members on the church plant. How is everyone else supposed to respond to that?

    My husband finally got our email explaining why we left out to our former pastors today. I would ask for prayer (anyone who would) because we’ve left it open to them whether we meet or not. I’d like to. I’d like that opportunity, and yet, I know I’d be very nervous. And now if they happen to read over here, they know who I am. Oh, well. I suspect they already may. I shouldn’t continue to fear them anyway, should I? No.

    In Christ,

    Bree

  193. Juli on April 27th, 2009 1:13 am

    Bree,

    I don’t follow all the SGM blogs anymore, just this one and some others not related to SGM. So no, I didn’t hear Gene speak and don’t have a clue what is going on in SGM La La Land.

    Just wondering why you would like the opportunity to meet with your pastor? And what makes you nervous about it? If you don’t care to share that publicly, I understand. And incidentally- who cares if he knows you post here, what’s he gonna do… kick you out of the church you already left of your own free will? bahahaha   that would be a riot.

    And no, you’re right - you should not fear him,  he doesn’t own you. He never did. And you and your husband owe him nothing.

    here is a little song to give you a giggle because all this stuff is just too darn serious (the song is modified of course)
    just for you Bree :)  I hope you sing along..

    First I was afraid
    I was petrified
    Kept thinking I could never live
    without you by my side
    But I spent so many nights
    thinking how you did me wrong
    I grew strong
    I learned how to carry on

    and now I know
    my mind is free
    you can’t confuse my anymore
    cause I’m thinking logically
    You should have known I’d get to here
    with all the questions that I asked
    So if you want to talk about it
    I’m more than ready for the task

    Go on now go lets hear your talk
    Of how I’m prideful
    and you’re worried ’bout my “walk”
    weren’t you the one who tried to say I’d fall in sin
    you thought I’d crumble
    you thought I’d lay down and you’d win

    Oh no, not I
    I will survive
    as long as I know how to think
    I know I’ll stay alive
    I’ve got all my wits about me
    And my mind has been set free
    and I’ll survive
    I will survive

    hehehe

  194. Bree on April 27th, 2009 8:27 am

    Juli,

    I guess I’d like to tell them face to face what their doctrine and teaching did to me personally. And then ask them not to respond with, “I’m sorry you feel that way.” I would be nervous simply because I do no like to speak in front of people–yeah, it would feel like an audience to me if there’s more than one.  : ) But also, I would be nervous because I’d be criticizing them–that’s always hard for me, hands shaking and all that.

    As far as caring if they know I post here, well, I know that there’s probably those who are or have been talking. I was told at one point that the blogs were poisoning me. I guess I do still care about the opinion other’s have of me. And, you know, it’s a bit hurtful, too.

    I don’t believe at all that our former pastors would react the way I’ve read about on the blogs. I think the way it would go would be that they’re sorry we feel this way, can we pray for you, we’ll think about these things…something like that. Pointless for us, I mean. Although, there was a time I thought we actually could make a difference and then I learned more about SGM…

    Thanks for the smile.  : ) And I could talk easily about all of this now, as far as understanding it all much better. If I said only one thing, it would be enough of a reason for leaving… I have Jesus now.

    Blessings,

    Bree

  195. Bree on April 27th, 2009 9:00 am

    Sopy,

    Thank-you (my smile is my thank-you)… but I have a question. But I hate to be direct sometimes… Just don’t want to misunderstand. I think it’s important–for me anyway.

    Heal over… from Jesus or you. I need to know. I know what makes sense, but it would be a shame to assume.

    I guess I need to pick up a colored sharpie… condensation. What a reminder when I re-draw it everyday! Yes, a good reminder, for someone so visual. I studied about “crowns” a little bit yesterday. Calvin was helpful. Not a reward for self-effort. A reward because of Him. And just not what I thought when you suggested that… instead I thought, but I don’t deserve that–and I don’t. That day was another legalistic moment. And then you show me Christ. And the way I see things now, if I see only Him and how caring He is, I don’t worry about judgment at all. Very grateful–to Jesus, and to you. You’re so kind…

    In Christ,

    Bree

  196. Juli on April 27th, 2009 12:33 pm

    Bree, I know what you mean about not liking to speak publicly. That is something I am currently taking steps to remedy for myself as I have much fear in that area as well…but I will tell you this - when the time came for me to talk to my former pastor it was on the phone and not in person, I was prepared by God beforehand and He told me it would happen, and when it did, I was no caught off guard, I didn’t back down, I was not scared, and my pastor didn’t imtimidate me at all.

    Perhaps because it was not in person and because God gave me a heads up- but I would have NEVER gone to meet him in person as a single woman with no husband to support me. And just a few months prior I would have had a panic attack just thinking of that conversation and hearing what he accused me of.

    I stood my ground, told him he was in error and not I, defended my positions, my conscience, my integrity, and in the end I said “We have nothing more to discuss, so I’ll be hanging up now.” I was in total control at all times and HE was freaked by it, that was obvious. He didn’t know what to make of it…and his anger came out and his frustration at lack of his control. As John always says - the truth bears itself out: and he showed himself to be a tyrant after all. What an eye opener for me.

    So you’ll get through it if you do meet with him. I was the biggest weenie in the world when it came to such confrontrations, and now, less than a year later, I’m making public testimony both online and in person on issues I NEVER would have before. God makes all things new sister..that means ALL things. :)

    I’ll be praying for you!

  197. John Immel on April 27th, 2009 3:00 pm

    One of the leading questions that I get off line addresses further conversation with SGM leadership.
     
    It is no secret that they demagogue the Matthew 18 ethic to demand ongoing access to people by appealing to the being “peace makers”   The argument is if you don’t want to meet and talk face to face you don’t want reconcile.  If you don’t want to reconcile you don’t want peace.  If you don’t want peace you are in sin, because scripture mandates you be a peace maker.   
     
    As a result most folk get sucked into endless conversations that always revolve around some failure on THEIR part to adopt/embrace the considered judgments of SGM leadership.
     
    This intellectual slight of hand that defines peace as unanimity of mind is fraud.  But that doesn’t keep people from getting sucked into the SGM definition vortex.
     
    The secret to the SGM power is that they hold the authority to define all the outcomes.  They define what reconciliation LOOKS like. They define what peace LOOKS like.  They define what humility LOOKS like.  They define what Christian Communication LOOKS like.  They define what repentance LOOKS like.  They define the scriptures they use to demagogue the LOOK.  They define the authority required to become the demagogues. 
     
    This phenomena has been talked about endlessly on the blogs so…. It is nothing new.  Since most people know all this about SGM leadership… I am always curios why people wanna take another crack at talking to these men.  When folk ask me about going back for yet another conversation, I typically hear, some variation of
     

    “I owe them an explanation for me leavening.”
    “I just want to tell them what they’ve done [to me].”
    “I want to help bring these men to repentance.” 

     
    Let me address the first one: NO YOU DON’T.  It is that simple.  You don’t owe these men any explanation.  That is one of the advantages of being an adult. 
     
    But if I push a bit, usually I find the real interest for yet one more meeting with the pastors is deeply imbedded in reason 2 and 3.  They want to hear a pastoral “Ah Ha! Moment” They want to hear the pastor say: “Yes, I see that I did really bad things to you!”
     
    The second and third reason are really the same thing.  Bringing these men to repentance necessitates that you believe they have done something wrong.  And if you have a dog in the fight, that means they’ve done something wrong to you.  But Altruism has persuaded the person that motive shouldn’t be SELF driven.  The result is that the person tries to persuade themselves of some purist motive: it’s all for their eternal benefit don’t you see. 
     
    I personally think reason 2 two is more honestly stated and a sufficient motive for addressing most any genuine conflict where actual harm has occurred. (As opposed to some delusional creation by someone tender sensibilities)  And many of you suffer from some profound harm. 
    And yes, having compassion does add a desire to want good things for individuals, and that would mean wanting these men to alter destructive conduct, habits, and governing philosophy.  But here is the thing… they don’t want to be saved.  More importantly they have no understanding that they should be saved.   As I have said before: SGM leaders are in an intractable position.  Criticism of their conduct is part and parcel of criticism of their doctrine.  They believe their doctrine unassailable. 
     
    Don’t doubt me here: NO ONE is altering their doctrine.
     
    IF you are from within, you have no business questioning the body of doctrine being taught.
     
    “Don’t you trust us?”
    “No.”
    “Then why are you here under our Pastoral care? Maybe you should find a church home where you FEEL more ‘comfortable’.”
    “But God has called me here!”
    “Then you should accept that God has appointed you to embrace our leadership.”
     
    If you are already OUT, then you are by definition disqualified in the arena of Doctrine.  There is no intellectual persuasion to be obtained.  These men can not be reformed in their thinking because no logical doctrinal appeal can be made. 
     
    So… what do you really think you are going to accomplish?
     
    Some really smart people have already tried to get into the minds of this bunch and SGM leadership didn’t even blink.  If you are a woman….  Piffle…. You might as well spend your time playing Tiddly Winks.   If you are a man….   They didn’t want who you were the first time around… what makes you think you will get more traction the second?
     
    I submit that waiting for an Ah Haa! moment out of this bunch is a waste of time.  Trying to manufacture an Ah Ha moment for this bunch is more than a waste of time.  It is an exercise in futility.  Maybe one day the SGM leaders will come on bended knee and honestly proclaim their treatment of you was wrong.  Maybe they ask you for forgiveness.  (If this overture is coupled with them declaring they are unfit to govern anyone ever again and committing to never stepping foot back in the pulpit) Maybe you should consider accepting their overture. 
    Maybe what I said never happens.  >shrug< 
     
    So what?  They don’t make you. They don’t define you. They really don’t have the power to dictate any of your future. You are FREE!  So go be free. 
     
    For some of you this doesn’t seem like a sufficient outcome.  You want to DO something about this whole dynamic.  And, in my never to be humble opinion, you are right …  Much more work exists. 
     
    If you want to be a force of change, here is what I suggest.  Openly identify the evil that you have lived, and experienced.  Be relentless in responding to the abuse and the driving forces of that abuse: the ideas that were the substance of your bondage.  Be unapologetic in what you have to say.   Be quick to point out the intellectual and spiritual manipulation that holds people in bondage.  Go live your life and pursue being the best YOU, you can.  Most folk find that infectious and desirable: they will want to know where they can get some of that too. Then tell them about TRUTH.  The Truth will, piss them off, then make them free…. And that is really, really fun to watch.

  198. Juli on April 27th, 2009 4:07 pm

    John you said: “But that doesn’t keep people from getting sucked into the SGM definition vortex”

    too right! (not to mention sad)  or maybe it is a worm hole..hehe

    Bree - by the time my encounter with my former pastor happened, I could have cared less if I ever spoke to him again. Although I did struggle for weeks after I left with what John described above, and then even more recently, with the “false guilt” of not wanting to reconcile (according to their defnition of reconciliation of course) to some in my former SGM church who were reaching out to reconnect with me for whatever reason - well, I know why, but that is another story.

    There was a period of doubting myself, my motives, what did it imply, what would they think of me if I refused contact, and so on…I could have made myself crazy thinking like that.

    then one day, I decided I just didn’t give a rat’s butt WHAT they thought, I didn’t want to invest more time and energy into SGM or the people I once were in relationship with, and I wasn’t going to feel guilty for my feelings. It has been over a year since I left - and bottom line is, they have no right to my life anymore because I choose not to allow them to have right, or access. And that is OK. And if they don’t agree, that is OK too. I still sleep fine at night (even better actually!)

    and then…I was free. I felt great, and I was untouchable in a sense…they could not get to me because I didn’t allow it. They didn’t own me, and I made sure my decisions reflected that fact. I owned by decisions, and was free to live in the consequences of them. I wasn’t free because we had talked and told him how I felt, I was free in spite of it..and that is the essence of freedom I think - independent of circumstances, moral definitions, traditions, dogma, doctrinal interpretations, whatever…

    If the Son has set you free…you are free indeed.

  199. Dan on April 27th, 2009 5:23 pm

    John:

    “But they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys. Which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them.”  Morpheus from The Matrix

    They make all the rules John, so they get to decide all the outcomes.

    To all:  It is okay to agree to disagree.  It really is.

  200. Paul Balluff on April 27th, 2009 6:31 pm

    “Danny Jones is incompetent.  (But we love it).”

    I suppose you could ask the pastors of the churches that he serves in Cuba if he is incompetent. One of them wept this last week, speaking of Danny’s love towards the churches in Cuba and his father’s treatment by the Cuban government.
    You could ask those whose marriages he has counseled back from the brink of divorce. (Ours for one)
    Or you could continually throw mud - but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord, and I don’t believe this serves Him.

  201. John Immel on April 27th, 2009 8:55 pm

    Yeah… Paul… that particular sentence is obviously in an abbreviated list of bog commentary. I’m summarizing the prolonged criticism of Jim over at the Refuge… http://www.sgmrefuge.com If you wanna defend Danny… maybe Jim can respond more effectively.

    And if the detailed commentary here is mere mud in your mind… >shrug< Then I guess you’ll have to ask yourself what you are doing getting dirty?

  202. Juli on April 27th, 2009 10:08 pm

    Paul - at least be original in your criticisms. You SGM folk can’t think for yourselves to save your lives…you have to borrow someone else’s critiques.

    *whoops* (hehe…that mud just slipped outta my hand there…<sigh>I guess I’m going to hell now since I can’t possibly be saved)

    oh no, wait..I’m depraved and totally wicked and the worst sinner I know, OF COURSE I am a mud slinger! BUT I’m also of the elect…

    hm…so I’m good to go :)

  203. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 3:18 am

    “A Reward Because Of Him”
    *
    *
    Bree,
    *
    HowDee,
    *
    Both Silly.  :-)
    *
    Yous bless’in everybudy, Bree!
    *
    Surely yous must know!
    *
    Rememba, da Holy Spirit, is the Father’s “down payment”…
    *
    Future things are a wait’in fer all God’s kids…
    *
    We’se a have our names writt’in in His book!
    *
    Dis is all SuPeR stuff.
    *
    *
    In a twinkling of an eye, ;~)
    *
    Sopy
    *

    I’ze a pray’in… soss is many odders too!

    ->Blessings!

  204. Soopwith on April 29th, 2009 3:59 am

    Bree,

    Yes, You have Jesus now!  Like yous said… :-)

    Praise God!

    Isn’t it wonderful!  :~)

    Sopy

    P.S.  If I’ze helped in anyway…Please “pass it on”…
    I’ze juz point’in yas in da right direction… (Jesus!)
    Someones did dat fer me, once… :-)
    Blessings!

  205. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 7:01 am

    “Out For Blood?”
    *
    *
    Paul,
    *
    Stop play’in peek’a'boo…What do you really want?
    *
    Blood?
    *
    Last time I Checked, Jesus had that covered…
    *
    Hahahahahahahahahaha
    *
    *
    Sopwith

  206. Sooooooopwith with endnotes he he on April 29th, 2009 7:14 am

    “Da Next Behemoth”

    I’ze ready fer da next 9,500 word behemoth with endnotes…

    Bring it on…John,

    he he  ;~)

    Sopy

  207. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 7:25 am

    “Find’in Life…”

    *
    *
    He that follows after righteousness and mercy finds life, righteousness, and honour.
    *
    Tag, your it!  >snicker<
    *
    Hahahahahahahahaha!
    *
    *
    In a little,
    *
    Sopy

  208. Bree on April 29th, 2009 8:13 am

    *
    Sopy,
    *
    HowDee to you!
    *
    Yes, I’ze be a pretty silly girl sometimes…
    *
    But YOU are confusing!  : )
    *
    But dats all right. Cuz youz been pointin’ me to Jesus all along…
    *
    So don’t you mind me and my silliness!
    ***
    It’s all good!
    *
    Hehe ; )
    *
    *
    In a bit,
    *
    Bree (silly me)
    ; )

    P.S. Do you forgive me…Surely you must know? Thanks fer prayin’!

  209. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 12:58 pm

    “Seven times seventy…”
    *
    *
    Bree,
    *
    Seven times seventy…  :-)
    *
    And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine…
    *
    *
    Blessings,
    *
    In a twinkling of an eye,  ;~)
    *
    Sopy

  210. Bree on April 29th, 2009 1:07 pm

    Sopy,

    See, confusing again… : ) or maybe I’m just slow. Yeah, I am. But I don’t understand how the verse relates… I can guess that maybe you are saying that I thanked you when others haven’t?

    I need to stop trying to read between the lines and just ask you when I don’t understand, O.K.? I can really drive myself crazy trying to figure things out.

    How are you and your family doing?

    Glad you’re here.

    Bree

  211. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 1:59 pm

    Christ the solid rock I stand, all else is sinking  sand, sinking sand…
    *
    *
    Bree,
    *
    Thanks!  :-) We are doing well, –all the prayers of God’s people…
    *
    What a blessing!
    *
    Short skinny:  It is not about Sopy, silly.  ->It is all about Jesus.
    *
    Many people have forgotten that. (That it all about Jesus)
    *
    I’ze juz chere ta remind um…
    *
    Christ the solid rock I stand, all else is sinking  sand, sinking sand…
    *
    all other ground, is sinking sand…
    *
    Do, do, do ,do da do…Hum, hum… 
    *
    In a little,  ;~)
    *
    *
    Sopy

  212. Bree on April 29th, 2009 2:09 pm

    Sopy,

    Oh–thank Jesus, not you, because you’re just directing me to Jesus, doing His work…  Did I get it?  : )

    See, I just think too literally or something.

    In Him,

    Bree  ; )

  213. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 2:12 pm

    Waters said it very well:
    April 29th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
    *
    ” Jesus did say that IN HIM we would have life–abundant life—and there is a real enemy, Satan, that comes to kill, steal, and destroy. If we are neutered—how can we be warriors??? Neutering is passive and asleep.–Quote from A. W. Tozer: ‘It becomes the devils business to keep the Christian spirit imprisoned. He knows that the believing and justified Christian has been RAISED UP OUT OF THE GRAVE OF HIS SINS AND TRESPASSES. From that point on,Satan works much harder to keep us BOUND AND GAGGED,actually imprisoned in our own grave clothes. He know that if we continue in this kind of bondage…we are not much better off than when we were spiritually dead.’

    —The SGM machine seeks to keep Believers “bound and gagged” by their heavy-handed control and unwavering obedience to their leaders.—-For some time we have been praying for our friends in SGM:

    ‘Awake, awake, O Zion;clothe yourself with strength…Shake off your dust; Rise up,sit enthroned,O  Jerusalem; Free yourself from the chains on your neck,O captive Daughter of Zion.’ Isa 52:1-2 ”

  214. Sopwith on April 29th, 2009 2:22 pm

    Bree,

    Yez, juz maybe I’ze gets use ta eat’in honey & locusts.  he he

    Somes day. :-)

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Sopy

  215. Bree on April 29th, 2009 2:27 pm

    Sopy,

    I’m just glad you’re here…

    AND GRATEFUL : )

    Bree

  216. anonymouslyyours on April 29th, 2009 2:36 pm

    Wow John, you really got ‘em talkin’! Just stopped by to say Hi! Prayer’s abound for you my cyber friend!

  217. John Immel on April 29th, 2009 2:44 pm

    Anony… glad to see you.  Missed you and your shoes!  : )

    Love to get people talking.  And the praying is always a good thing. 

    I trust you and yours are doing good.

    Be Blessed…

    John

  218. Paul Balluff on April 29th, 2009 7:08 pm

    “The SGM machine seeks to keep Believers “bound and gagged” by their heavy-handed control and unwavering obedience to their leaders”

    I wish I could say more on this topic but the SGM police my computer and I only have a 3 minute window before they lock onto me and prevent me from hitting the “send” button. Please help. We can’t think for ourselves and have been trapped in this cult for 20 yeas. Unable to think for ourselves, unable to…..what was I saying? I forgot, it is so hard to think for myself… have to hit the “send” button. Will try and sneak a message out again soon. Please keep praying for us all - we are doomed.

  219. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 12:12 am

    *
    *
    “Feeling Spiritual Abused?”
    *
    “Spiritual abuse is the mistreatment of a person who is in need of help, support or greater spiritual empowerment, with the result of weakening, undermining or decreasing that person’s spiritual empowerment.” 
    *
     –Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church  by Authors:  David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen , Bethany House, 2005  ISBN-10: 0764201379
    *
    “This book was the best book I’ve read on spiritual abuse issues. It covers all areas: from being spiritually abused, why things go wrong in the churches today, how to recognize an abusive system, to recovering and returning to a right relationship with God, one of faith, hope, love, and grace. These are the things that build a relationship, and create change in our lives. It’s not about rules, regulations, being obedient to leaders, and having people tell you their perception and belief of God’s will for your life.”
    *
    “That’s why God gave us His Word, and we are to grow in a relationship with Him. He will do the work in us , we could not do ourselves.”
    *
    “This book was the key to helping our family get our lives back together after having experienced abuse in a church. It not only validated us, but it is packed full of scriptures to search the truth out for yourself, to really look at what the Bible is saying, to whom, why, and to see Jesus’s true character, and heart of God’s Word. What a blessing!”
    *
    “I noticed a person was sort of negative in their response to this book, and spoke of how we are to submit to leaders, etc. The Bible tells us to submit to leaders who speak the truth, who operate in the “fruits of the spirit,” and who love (both saints and sinners alike). ”
    *
    “How can we get to the lost, and get them saved if we are to self-righteous to reach out to them, and love them enough to meet them where they are. Self-righteousness sends people away from God, not toward him. Legalism is based on getting right with God, not how to have a relationship with Him. Even though we were spiritually abused, I don’t like to hear messages that “tickle my ears” either, but the deliverance of the message, and the heart of the person sending the message must line up with God’s Word, and have a character as Jesus did. God gave us feelings and emotions too, it’s not always our sinful flesh. We need God to help us discern between the two. I thank God for this book, pray that God will continue to bless their work because a lot of people without resources like this may otherwise walk away from the Lord, after having experienced such a tramatic experience as spiritual abuse. The book is full of insight, not only of abuse issues, but what’s gone wrong in churches today. The only thing that the church can really offer anyone that the world can’t is “God’s love and grace.” As Christians, that’s our responsibility! That’s what will change people, the world, and cause us to love God and want to serve Him. “     –Mary Willits, Mill Hall, PA.

  220. sopwith on April 30th, 2009 12:37 am

    *
    *
    Is Matthew 18 Being Misapplied In Your church?
    *
    “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (subtitled: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority) by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen is the finest book we have ever read on this subject.  It carefully delineates the difference between true authority and poor leadership.  In this book the authors discuss how such abuse develops and why members are blinded to it initially.  Later, when it’s too late to do anything about it, the congregants finally realize what happened to their church.  Interestingly, it also helps the members of such a church to understand what it is about their own personalities that allows such domineering pastors and elder boards to control them.”
    *
    “One of the finest chapters deals with the misapplication of various Scripture verses that are used to secure the abusive pastor’s position and keep the members of the church in line. ”
    *

    “They (the authors) show how verses such as Matthew 18 are misapplied and misunderstood.  It is fascinating to see how the Bible can be misused to justify almost any action, including unbiblical ones.  The authors stress how the average member in such a church often feels burdened and lacking in joy.  It is fascinating to note that even the “really intelligent” individual can be taken in by this sort of a church.” 
    –Dee & Deb, thewartburgwatch.com

  221. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 12:59 am

    *
    *
    “SGM authority stops when the pastor there closes the pages of the Bible…”
    *
    “I believe that as far as authority, the only authority any pastor or elder has is the Word of God.”
    *
    “When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your authority. I have no authority, if you’re in my congregation, to say to you, “Go here and get this training. Go there. I command you to…”–I have no authority to do that. That is overstepping my bounds.”
    *
    “I am nothing more and nothing less than an instrument by which God makes known to you His revelation. That’s my role.”
    *
    “Now, I may say to you, “Given the circumstances, I would recommend this because it appears from what I know about that and what I know about you that this would be a good choice,” but that is not authority; that is counsel. My authority stops when I close the page of this book (Bible), and then all I’m doing is giving you counsel. You can consider that counsel as to its inherent value and make your own decision. But I have no authority to command you, beyond the pages of the Word of God. ”
    *
    “That very point is where pastor’s and elder’s leadership becomes out-of-bounds and abusive and overbearing. God never intended that. The best we can do is give wise counsel. That’s why the Old Testament says, “In much counsel, there is wisdom.” The point is there. If God wanted us to just listen to one guy, He would say, “If you want to know what to do, go ask the elder.” But He says, “Get much counsel and you’ll get wisdom.”

    “So I believe that our authority stops where scripture ends and then the best we can do is try to give wise counsel based upon our best understanding of the facts.” 

    –John MacArthur Jr.; Grace Community Church, Panorama City, California.
     

  222. Bree on April 30th, 2009 9:29 am

    Hi Sopy,

    I had that book recommended to me by a friend, Juli. : ) But I hadn’t read anything about it.  It sounds very good.

    I really liked the quote by MacArthur, Jr. Could you imagine a SG pastor ever saying such a thing? Never. And what a shame that they use that very Word of God to exercise their authority, use it against the people they’re supposed to serve. Guess they have their wires crossed or something. Only see what they want to see in the Word. What serves them.

    Glad you’re here, Sopy!

    Bree

  223. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 1:42 pm

    The very stead of God?
    *
    What?
    *
    “By the hallmark of their(SGM leadership) “Zeal” and “Concern” they are distinguished to perform the appointed job of administering your life in God’s stead. The underlying presumption of that entire blog post(CJ’s editorial, Standing in the Very Stead of God,) is that unique men are given the specific job of administrating the revelation of God to the people.  God doesn’t speak to everybody; he speaks to some who deliver that message to the masses. “  –John Immel, Spiritualtyranny; “To Reform Or Not To Reform”.
    *
    *
    I was thinking this morning that the word of God has become chains and caustic acid, in their (SGM) hands.
    They(SGM) bind up the people with dark chains and burn their souls with the caustic acid of the misuse of scripture.
    The bondage and the sorrow of the people has become their (SGM leadership’s) “Joy”.
    *
    They (SGM leadership) want to stand in the very stead of God…
    *
    Big Ut’O… >snicker<
    *
    ” ; Si vous pouvez voyager, où la lumière du mot de Dieu ne brille pas, Monsieur CJ, plus profondément beaucoup beaucoup plus profondément… de ” d’excavations ; –M. Sopy
    *
    ” Wenn Sie reisen mögen, wo das Licht von Wort Gottes nicht glänzt, Grabungen Herr CJ, tiefer viel viel mehr tief… ” –Herr Sopy
    *
    Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!
    *
    In a little, ;~)
    *
    Sopy

  224. Bree on April 30th, 2009 1:50 pm

    Hehe…should I translate that?

    CJ, get your head out of [the sand]  : )
    CJ, stop feeding us [sand]  : )

    Close?

  225. Juli on April 30th, 2009 2:22 pm

    Anony…been busy eh? Yeah, strange bantering going on here as usual..but all good stuff.

    Our friend Paul is a self-proclaimed cult-captive and trying to sneak out his verbal condemnations of the commentary here on his computer that has apparently been tapped by SGM Corporate..oh, the tyranny.

    I think he doesn’t realize that they (SGM shepherds) don’t mind when SGM people come online and criticize the blogs because then that means THEY don’t have to do it themselves. They can sit back while “men” like Paul, Stein Meisterbrew from refuge, and Roy from survivors poke their SGM pointy sticks at those holding swords of truth. That is truly how absurd it is. 

    So the SGM shepherds have the totally depraved sheep fight us supposed wolves in the arena of ideas, and let them get intellectually devoured (but at least not served with mint jelly) because the shepherds are just too busy, um, er…I guess protecting the flock?

    They don’t realize their cowardice and intellectual inability is actually serving to liberate the captives. At least those who seek truth and see the inevitable fruit of the doctrines/teachings that they have been fed.

    They don’t have to convince anyone but those sheep under their control that they are superior to these underoo wearing basement bloggers. And they know if THEY themselves enter the arena, it would quickly reveal the man behind the curtain - and that the whole SGM shabang is smoke and mirrors. Because they cannot defend themselves or what they are selling when it is put up against the truth. And they know it. And it really pisses them off.

    crazy illogic.

    but so much fun to watch the captives set free!

  226. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 3:35 pm

    We be Yammin’…

    Bree,
    *
    I am glad your here too!
    *
    We be Yammin’…
    *
    With dat Cajun Spiritual Beta Carotene Beat!  he he
    *
    Praise You Jesus!
    *
    Set Um free, set Um free!
    *
    Christ has “set us free”  free indeed!
    *
    *
    In a little,  ;~)
    *
    Sopy

    Note:

     Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te0hy2YcLgg

  227. Bree on April 30th, 2009 3:44 pm

    Sopy,

    You always make me cry… : )  I can’t do this alone.  I know I’m supposed to look to Jesus and I wish I could say that He’s enough for me, but I’m scared. Maybe my faith is weak. Pray for me, O.K.?

    Bree

  228. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 4:27 pm

    Yea, somestimes I’ze a wearing my lunch too, Bree…

    he he

    Rest easy…

    Your not alone, believe you me…

    We’se a all pray’in!

    In a little, ;~)

    Sopy

  229. Juli on April 30th, 2009 4:46 pm

    Bree…
    It’s not a passive looking to Jesus we all need. It is intentional faith, a going out and seeking, a pursuit of truth…put the fear you have to action…not inaction.

    Fear without action eventually cripples and kills us. But fear in the going out? Well, it eventually subsides. The fear won’t go away if we sit down and succumb to it. So you might as well use your fear to motivate yourself to act, exploit it, and learn from it…

    you’re going to be fine…really :)
    now, you go girl!!  love and praying for ya!

  230. Bree on April 30th, 2009 5:01 pm

    Thank-you, Sopy. Thank-you, Juli.

    I hope John will humor me.  Seems I can take a blog completely of its tracks…

    “All I could see from where I stood
    Was three long mountains and a wood;
    I turned and looked another way,
    And saw three islands in a bay.
    So with my eyes I traced the line
    Of the horizon, thin and fine,
    Straight around till I was come
    Back to where I’d started from;
    And all I saw from where I stood 
    Was three long mountains and a wood.
    Over these thing I could not see;
    These were the things that bounded me;
    And I could touch them with my hand,
    Almost, I thought, from where I stand.
    And all at once things seemed so small
    My breath came short, and scarce at all….”

    Edna St. Vincent Millay

  231. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 5:59 pm

    “Where we’re go’in …. we don’t need tracks!”

    Bree,

    Yous said:  “Seems I can take a blog completely of its tracks…”

    Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    We’se a pop’in popcorn…  :-)

    Want some?   ;~)

    Sopy

  232. Juli on April 30th, 2009 6:13 pm

    Bree…I guess you’ve forgotten Anony, Dan and I and our excursions into the worlds of Monty Python, Star Wars, Star Trek and Barry Manilow…hahaha

    remember, we’re all insane anyway…depraved, and all that. hehe

    that was a lovely poem…reminds me of:

    “Two roads diverged in a wood, and I–
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.”

  233. Bree on April 30th, 2009 6:41 pm

    The poem is called Renascence and, as the title does tell, it’s about spiritual rebirth. It’s not the gospel, but it does give a clear picture of the struggle that some face and the potential glorious outcome.

    http://www.infoplease.com/t/poetry/modern-verse/renascence.html

  234. Dan on April 30th, 2009 7:14 pm

    Love the Frost reference Juli — sometimes that road can be lonely — the one less traveled by — but I am sure it will make all the difference…

    Funny but I don’t feel as if I am depraved…

  235. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 9:11 pm

    234 coments John,

    I think we’re talking retreads here.

    he he

    Sopy

  236. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 9:52 pm

    “Friendly Voices”
    Bree,

    I hope that you have found “friendly voices” here on the blogs. :-)
    We here at the house of Sopwith, continue to lift you and your family up to the throne of grace.  Mrs. Sopwith and I expect great things for you and your family!
    *
    Your poem continues:
    “O God, I cried, no dark disguise
    Can e’er hereafter hide from me
    Thy radiant identity!”

    …”let the face of God shine through“, Bree!
    Blessings, and our prayers,  ;~)
    Sopy

    P.S. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.  We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.   We write this to make our joy complete.  This is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all.
    Jesus is the ‘light’ that the Father has left on for ya…Bree!
    Walk in ‘that’ light!  :-)

  237. Bree on April 30th, 2009 10:00 pm

    Right Juli,

    Missed this:

    “It’s not a passive looking to Jesus we all need. It is intentional faith, a going out and seeking, a pursuit of truth.”

    How could I forget? “Jesus is truth and truth is Jesus.” Well, then, Jesus is making me cry. : ) But we talked about this–the fear. I’m fearful of the fear I may have to face–make sense?

    Thanks for praying and being here,

    Bree

  238. Bree on April 30th, 2009 10:08 pm

    Sopy and Mrs. Sopwith,

    I am very grateful for your prayers and kind thoughts. Between here and there is the fierce fire. I feel unprepared and simply unable to face that.

    I know I’m not alone, in a sense. But a time may come when I will have to face some gigantic fears. It’s good to know that you are out there, somewhere, praying. 

    Thank-you for such love,

    Bree

  239. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 10:45 pm

    “Let Us Examine  Our Beliefs…”

    “It is my earnest belief that each generation is duty bound before God to question what they have been taught and to do so in the light of the holy scriptures and under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. This is how so much error becomes firmly entrenched in our doctrinal preaching and teaching. We are afraid to challenge what we have ‘always believed and been taught’ for fear of being cut off from ‘our fellowship’ and appearing as a trouble maker in the eyes of the people.
    Let us lose such fear and launch into an examination of our beliefs and if they prove to be true and stand up under the searchlight of God’s word and Spirit, let us stand steadfast giving in to no man.

    But if we find we are in error may God give us the grace to embrace the truth - whatever the cost    .”     –Earl R. Wilson

    *
    Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test? –2 Cor.13:5
     

  240. Sopwith on April 30th, 2009 11:04 pm

    Bendición Muy Grande

    Bree,

    Yous welcome!

    …Yas got soooo many of God’s angels overs dare at yous place dat da are fight’in over da sofa pillows!  he he

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    In da peace datz passes all understand’in…,

    Sopy

    P.S. ¡Una bendición muy grande, usted está a nuestro señor, Jesús!

  241. Bree on April 30th, 2009 11:57 pm

    The traslators are giving me mixed messages….

    Especially when I tried French to English. : ) You just like to mix things up, don’t you?

  242. Sopwith on May 1st, 2009 6:06 am

    ¡Sí!  
    Muzz be de tocos…  :-)

    Kinda like go’in ta Starbucks and order’in a blackberry green tea frap or a valencia steamer, Huh?
    hehe
    En un poco,  ;~)
    Señor Sopy
     

  243. Bree on May 1st, 2009 8:51 am

    Sopy,

    You’re a funny guy.  : )

    I tried translating “Muzz be de tocos..” until I said it out loud.  hehe  Silly me.

    Today’s a better day.

    “I sought the LORD and He heard me…” It’s not over yet, but there is definitely some joy in the journey. And I suppose His mercies are new every morning because we will always need them. Today, tomorrow, and each day after that.

    Have a great day, Sopy!

    Bree

  244. Sopwith on May 1st, 2009 12:11 pm

    Does Spiritual Gag Order Exist At Your Church?
    *
    *
    “One of the most difficult issues of spiritual abuse is proving that it exists.” 
    *
    What?
    *
    “The whole thing hinges on word usage and Scriptural interpretation.  As Christians, we all agree that gossip is bad, but who gets to decide whether a particular conversation is gossip or legitimate questioning or disagreement?  The same could be said of other words such as rebellion, divisive, distrustful, and argumentative. ”
    “Is our very question sinful?”
    Huh?
    *
    “In 2007, the Georgia Baptist Convention made it a “sin” to blog.”
    *
    Yea, you heard me right.  >snicker<
    *
    “The Resolution Against Blogging included the following two paragraphs:”
    *
    “BE IT ALSO RESOLVED that we reaffirm the historic method of administering our agencies and institutions through elected boards of trustees, and we call upon bloggers to cease the critical second-guessing of these elected leaders; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that all Georgia Baptists respectfully request and expect that individuals who disrupt the fellowship through blogging repent and immediately cease this activity and no longer cause disharmony for the advancement of their own personal opinions and agendas . . .”
    *

    “Wade Burleson comments: When the resolution “passed,” I’m sure that many Southern Baptists thought those evil “bloggers” had it coming.”
    *
    Ya don’t say… hehe!
    *
    “It is quite possible that SBC agency trustees, contrary to the statement in the resolution, actually need someone to be critical of their decisions? ”
    *
    “It is also quite reasonable to believe that the “disharmony” mentioned in the resolution is not caused by a blogger following his or her conscience, but by church leaders following a path of deception.”
    *
    Hows dat fer Spiritual Tyranny, for ya?
    *
    Like John has been tell’in us,  :-)
    *

    Dark days are com’in, folk.
    *
    For some,
    *
    It is already play’in in a neighborhood near you… >snicker<
    *
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    *
    In a little, ;~)
    *
    Sopy
    *
    Note: Adapted: Dee & Deb; The Wartburg Watch;”Your Pastor is a Sinner”, April 30, 2009

  245. Juli on May 1st, 2009 12:53 pm

    Bree..you actually try to translate Sopy? Now why didn’t I think of that before?

    :)

    Sopy, you’re an original…thanks brother for all your exhortations..

    Dan…I like the road less traveled more and more these days, although at first I hated it because it seemed so isolated..the crowded road is filled with tons of people, but they are often ignorant and speaking foolishly. And that is just annoying.

    What I’m finding is that there are of course fewer people on this road, but they are always moving and going, you don’t always see them all the time. But you do along the way, and then meeting just one of them is 100X more interesting than meeting 100 on the road most traveled.

    I wouldn’t trade it.

  246. Dan on May 1st, 2009 1:02 pm

    So what is the Road’s name, the “Road to Depravity” or the “Road to Enlightenment?”

    Me…I think the latter.  I am on that same Road.

  247. Sopwith on May 1st, 2009 1:26 pm

    Who Holds Your SGM Pastor Accountable?
    *
    *
    What?
    *
    Folk have a tendency to believe the best in everybody, which is not always a bad thing, but there are times when we should pause for a moment and consider whether or not there is a high level of connectivity between events at the international, national, regional and local levels of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
    *
    Huh?
    *
    In other words, it might be wise to ask questions before just “assuming” people “Upstairs” in leadership, are acting in your best interest –there at SGM HQ and in your local SGM church.
    *
    Assume?  Big Ut’O   >he he<
    *
    Where’s those “Eagle Eye’ed Bereans”?   In Acts 17:11, The Apostle Paul and Silas preached at Berea, and the inhabitants “… received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so…”
    *
    Yous sleep’in?
    Or are you search’in?
    *
    “Some feel it is always “sin” to question religious leaders or to hold pastors accountable for their actions; but the Bible is quite clear that nobody is beyond the reach of sin, and all of us, not just some of us, should welcome the accountability that comes with positions of authority.”
    *
    So fire up does meaty questions, Cuz…
    *
    It’s your turn…
    *
    Batter Up!  >snicker<
    *
    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    *
    In a little,  ;~)
    *
    Sopy
    *
    *
    Note: Adapted: “A Southern Baptist Religious ‘State of Play’” ; Tuesday, April 28, 2009; Wade Burleson; http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/
     

  248. Sopwith on May 1st, 2009 1:31 pm

    Juli, thank you!

    Dan, I’ze thought yous traveled in a big ole spaceship!?!  :-)

  249. Dan on May 1st, 2009 1:44 pm

    I do!  I only travel at a prime number warp instead of an even number warp.

    Warp 1, Warp 3, Warp 7

    Everybody else seems to travel on the even Warps.  SGM is still stuck in sub-space…

    Sopy travels in hyperspace…

  250. Sopwith on May 1st, 2009 2:02 pm

    Bree,

    Blessings!

    I’ze glad yous feel’ins bedder! :-)

    Give yous Heavenly Father a jingle when yous feel’in low…

    He’s gots yaz number, ya hear?

    Yous gots His too!  Right?  >grin<

    Dat reminds me of someth’in:

    But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him…

    By faith Sopy, being warned from de scriptures, of things not yet seen, and some dat are, moved with godly fear, blogged for the saving of Christ’s Bride, by which he exposed the Tyranny of Spiritual Sillyness to the world and became a hero of  those who seek righteousness which is according to     faith in Christ, Jesus alone.

    Praise You Jesus!

    YeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    In a little,  ;~)

    Jesus’ Sopy

  251. Miss Paddlefoot on May 1st, 2009 2:29 pm

    Hi everyone…….

    This is what has been going around in my mind for days wrt. SGM and other mis-guided leadership in our churches -
    **
    The Question is wider than “To Reform or not to Reform”…..

    The question is, “Will there be REPENTANCE?” (the action or process of repenting especially for misdeeds or moral shortcomings - and a feeling of responsibility for wrongdoing — aka. GUILT).

    As many have spoken so eloquently to shed light the ILL’s and LIE’s that permeate the current christian body (and church leadership).

    What I see God calling his children to is REPENTANCE, so that they may be cleansed and fitting for God’s work in these last days.

    ~  Lord, bring down your spirit of conviction and bring HEALTH and HEALING to your church - for we need to be reconciled to you, and then to each other!  Amen.

  252. Sopwith on May 1st, 2009 2:38 pm

    Yaz Dan,
    Thanks fer de nod, bro. :-)

    I’ze look’in fer my formula for creating gravity in a vacuum…
    Yous got a copy?

    In the twinkling of an eye,  ;~)
    Sopy
    P.S. I’ze been pray’in fer ya…
    I’ze sooo sorry dat doze “Sultans of Sillyness”
    rained on your parade…

  253. Dan on May 1st, 2009 3:02 pm

    Nah — all I have is a good receipe for pancakes…

  254. Juli on May 1st, 2009 3:35 pm

    Dan..I dunno what the road is, but it certainly is not the road to depravity..that’s a figment of man’s imagination.

    for some reason “Follow the yellow brick road” song is going through my mind now..oh, great…

    Courage! But at least I got a brain :)

    Miss Paddlefoot, nice to see you again!

    Personally, I don’t think repentance will happen corporately at least in SGM. There may be individual repentance here and there (we already see that now) but it is not happening in the upper ranks, and for all the reasons John’s post outlined I think.

    If they didn’t repent years ago when confronted with these truths about their beliefs and philosophy, what makes anyone think they would now? And yet, here we are years later, with hundreds of wounded, stories of sexual abuse, broken families, suicides and suicide attempts, rapes, chronic depression, the list goes on.

    Just how much fruit does one have to see before they see it for what it really is? Anyone with half a working brain would see that something is wrong here as a result of SGM’s teachings…but nobody stops to ask why until the crap hits the fan. Well, the crap has obviously hit, but they still don’t care. They just redefine the crap you see, and that makes it all good: Pay no attention to the crap on your face…you’re just suffering for the Kingdom.

    That is the process of exchanging truth for a lie - bit by bit, as Romans 1 outlines. I think SGM (and other tyrannical groups) are the people spoken of in Romans 1. God gives them over to the wickedness…because they chose to create it and then remain in it. He doesn’t come down, wave His magic wand and change hard hearts that refuse His truth time and again.

    By the way, I obviously don’t believe in irresistible grace. And my definition of “grace” is not the same as SGM’s or many other’s definitions, just so you know. But I don’t make the mistake of thinking God is unjust and there are not consequences for our deliberate choices.

  255. John Immel on May 1st, 2009 3:45 pm

    I want to offer this thought.
     
    When we speak of repentance we usually are talking about open remorse for moral failing.  However, this is not what repentance means.  John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of repentance and the translators used the Greek word Metanoia which means a change of mind. 
     
    Jesus and John both said “repent for the Kingdome of God is at hand.”  We tend to read this to mean.  “Renounce moral impurity so God can come to us.”    This is not what they were saying.
     
    They were saying:  “Change your mind about the proximity of the God’s Kingdome.”  There is not enough space to exegete this entire thought.  But I want to draw this to the SGM phenomena.
     
    The repentance being looked for is imbedded in a change of MIND for them.  For all the reasons that I addressed in the post above, this is what can not happen with their current philosophical assumptions driven by their theological methodology. 

  256. Bree on May 1st, 2009 5:01 pm

    John,

    Well said and good point. And more evidence that the leadership of SGM doesn’t know their Greek too well…

    “It is also true that the message of the gospel is only effectual to those who genuinely repent of their sins and, by God’s grace, put saving faith in Christ.”

    That’s from their statement of faith under “Man’s Response to the Gospel.”

    Just more evidence of the legalism that exists. They’re not hiding it very well. It’s a shame that those who don’t know for themselves what it means to repent are lead to believe that there are works involved in salvation. How can they have any freedom in Christ if from the very start they believe that they’ve done something to earn their salvation?

    And what’s more, how can those men ever sincerely repent if they don’t even know what it means?

    Bree

  257. Bree on May 1st, 2009 5:04 pm

    Hey,
     
    You go Sopy! You’re definitely a hero.  : )

    I love that verse… God is so good to me.

    In Him,

    Bree

  258. Bree on May 1st, 2009 5:09 pm

    Sopy,

    One more thing… I did this silly thing (big surprise, eh?). Asked Carole to forward you something, but I don’t know if she ever did. Did you happen to notice that Roy Baylor is an anagram for “O, Larry Boy”?

    There’s a whole song, not the one from the Larry Boy movie, but one that says, “O, Larry Boy” right in it. Boy, you could really do something with that, you’re just so good at it.  Hehehe.  ; )

    I bet that’s how they formed the name–such childishness. And childish of me to figure it out. : ) But the song just fits what they thought they were attempting to do. Well, I think it’s funny anyway…

    But maybe Roy shouldn’t be allowed any more space…

    Bree (silly me)

  259. Sopwith on May 2nd, 2009 12:20 am

    “One Bad Apple…”

    Bree,
    Roy Baylor aka “O, Larry Boy”?

    What?
    …Someth’in is rotten in da peaceful town of Gaithersburg?
    Huh?

    Well, you know what day say, “One Bad Apple”, spoils da whole bunch! 

    >snicker<

    But I guess you already knew dat.  he he

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    In a little, ;~)

    Sopy
     
     

  260. Sopwith on May 2nd, 2009 12:02 pm

    “Jesus: Sweet Freedom”
    No more running down the wrong road
    Dancing to that SGM drum
    Can’t you see what’s going on?
    Deep inside your heart?
    Always searching for the real thing
    Livin’ like it’s far away
    Just leave all that SGM madness in yesterday
    You’re holding the key when you believe in Jesus & His Word!
    Jesus & His sweet, sweet Word!
    Shine, Sweet Jesus
    Shine your light on me
    You are the blessing!
    You’re right where I want to be
    Oh, sweet freedom
    Carry me along
    You keep my spirit alive, on and on (Jesus…)
    On and on…  On and on…
    We’ll be dancing in real worship
    Smiling with the return of God’s Dear Son
    Living like we’ve never known…
    Goin’ His way
    Reaching out with His strength to meet the challenges…
    Blessings touching every soul…
    The light of tomorrow, Jesus, Here today
    He is right where we are
    There’s no turning back,
    We are believ’in now!
    Shine, sweet Jesus
    Shine your light on me
    You are the blessing
    You’re right where I want to be
    Oh, sweet Jesus
    Carry me on you shoulders,
    You’ll keep my spirit alive, on and     on  (Jesus…)
    On an on…
    Cause there’ll be light all the time
    When You come to be with us
    Sharing the blessings of Your Heaven right before your eyes…
    Today the light of God’s Word is guiding us
    Shinin’ till –Jesus, You come for us, out of heaven…
    Shine, sweet Jesus
    Shine your light on me
    You are the Blessing!
    You’re right where I want to be
    Oh, sweet Jesus!
    Carry me on your shoulders, till then…
    You keep my spirit alive, on and on,
    on and on….
    Shine, sweet Jesus
    Shine your light on me
    You are my Hope
    Blessing Jesus!
    Oh, sweet Freedom
    Carrying me along…
    You’ve kept my spirit alive, on and on

    On and on!
    Shine, sweet Jesus, Shine!

    Adapted: Michael McDonald, “Sweet Freedom”
    Blessings!  ;~)

    Sopy

  261. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 3:37 pm

    Hey Sopy,

    “Always searching for the real thing
    Livin’ like it’s far away
    Just leave all that SGM madness in yesterday
    You’re holding the key when you believe in Jesus & His Word!”

    I think it’s true that we’re safe when we take a good look at ourselves, all our longings and desires, without trying to squelch who we are, provided we are seeking Jesus, the Truth, and His Word.

    The Holy Spirit can turn our hearts if we stray and then He can give us the right desires.

    Sometimes, I think it takes seeing what you really are–good, bad, or ugly–to give you the impetus to get past your fears and onto the abundant life. So what if it turns out that your sinful desires pushed you past your fears, if in the end, He carries you back home on His shoulders where you finally learn to walk in the light–for real.

    Trusting Him to work, knowing that it always comes down to His righteousness and not our own, we can have faith that He will keep us in the palm of His hand just as He promised.

    At least it seems the case for me. Many more miles left in my journey. Please pray that in the end it honors God. I’m sure that’s what He desires.

    Blessings,

    Bree

  262. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 3:39 pm

    Oh, and about your other comment, nicely done!

    Your mind must be a like a computer. Info goes into your search engine and out pops–fun! And much more.

    Thanks for sharing that with us here,

    Bree

  263. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 4:07 pm

    Sopy, Much love to you and your family today. Still in my thoughts and prayers.

    “The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.” Psalm 34:18

    “God will bring me out of the darkness into the light, and I will see his goodness.” Micah 7:9

    Bree

  264. Juli on May 2nd, 2009 5:37 pm

    Bree….wow..you’re preaching girl!

    how awesome is that?

    Sopy - I have been wanting to ask you for some time - are you actually part Creole or are you originally from Louisiana? (If you don’t want to answer because it would give your identity away, I understand..I’m just being curious)

    everytime I read your words I start thinking of a muffaletta and a beignet with some chicory coffee for dessert…yum.

  265. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 6:07 pm

    Hey Juli,

    Well, I think some people have been praying for me or something.  : ) Thank-you one and all.

    Regarding Sopy’s identity… he might just be a German speaking Spaniard… : )

    Back to Braveheart…

  266. Sopwith on May 2nd, 2009 9:23 pm

    Forget da cheap seats!
    *
    Bree,
    *
    Upgrades yous spiritual security alarm, bypass da fears …onto the abundant life section… >grin<
    *
    I’ze rememba somth’in:
    The proverbial SGM thief comes not, but to take, and break stuff: Jesus came that we might have life, and dat we might have dat life mores abundantly!
    *
    *
    Outa Romans 6 & 7 ;On to Romans 8  >Grin<
    *
    YaHooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
    *
    Sweet Jesus = Sweet Sweet Freedom…
    *
    In a little, ;~)
    *
    Sopy

  267. Sopwith on May 2nd, 2009 9:30 pm

    Juli,
    *
    What ever I’ze is, I’ze got dese here claws, and everytimes I ‘ze be run’in um across John Immel’s chalkboard, Mr. Mahaney cans hears dem…  >he he he<
    *
    Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech!
    *
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    *
    *
    In a little,  ;~)
    *
     Creole Sopy
    *
    Yum! Half muffuhlotuh fer me, I’ze gota be watch’in ma weight… >snicker<
    *
    rasberry beignet.. -ta die for…
    *
    An expresso and a La Belle Orange for me please…
    *
    Now ya done spoiled it…I wos about ta go over dar ta Kim  & Guy’s place for some mo of dat wondr Gumbo…    ha ha
    *
    Whares ma Justin Wilson’s Louisiana Pepper Sauce?!   Ah, dar it tiz…

  268. Sopwith on May 2nd, 2009 9:39 pm

    *
     PURSUE HIS PURPOSE! 
    *
    …Pitch Everything Else…
    *
    Let us remove evera weight dat slows us down…

    *

    (Sorry Mr. Seedge, yous a slow’in us down…)   Chuck it!…>grin<
    Hahahahahahaha!
    *
    And let us run with endurance dat race that God has set befo us…
    *
    In little, ;~)

    Sopy
    *

    I’ze gots ma runn’in shoes on!

  269. Juli on May 2nd, 2009 10:27 pm

    Justin Wilson the Cajun cook who would wear suspenders and drink during his show? …ok, that about rounds out this “multi-cultural” blog here I’d say..hehe

    who would have thought this blog would be so cosmopolitan, in it’s own warped way? :)

    culture AND an intellectual smack upside the head all in one place…hehe

    who could ask for anything more?

  270. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 10:29 pm

    O.K., I just read something and I’d like to share… if I get a bunch wrong here, well, that’s nothing new.  : )

    It was an article about Christians throughout the ages and today having certitude about their interpretations of the Word of God. Such a strong conviction on a particular belief (for instance, women should not preach) that they can’t imagine the possibility of being wrong.

    And there was a mention of authority and power–owning others. But I was thinking, that for me, I can attempt or at least believe I have some right to control or own fellow believers when I take such a strong stand on secondary issues that I think I have the mind of God. All the answers and no room for error.

    An example was given of a man being burned at the stake by Anabaptists because he believed that the body and blood of Christ are not present in the bread and wine, and also because he believed baptising infants did not promote their salvation.

    So certain were the Anabaptists of their beliefs that they burned him at the stake for something which the Baptists now agree with! The author suggested that 100 years from now it might be the norm (in a certain denomination) to believe that women can preach.

    I’m pretty sure John said this, but it takes this certitude in conjunction with authority to lead to that sort of thing–burning someone at the stake for disagreeing with you. And, as John said, it takes people believing they’re depraved as well, in order to put themselves under that authority… 

    This really got me thinking. And it kind of felt freeing. But why do I fear considering that interpretations that disagree with me might just be right? (I don’t mean the essentials, certainly not the gospel message.) Am I still putting my faith in something more than Christ? What am I afraid of? So worried that I’ll get it wrong and then… what? Go to hell? I know that’s not right. Or, goodness, do I still believe that people are depraved and can’t think for themselves so they need someone telling them what’s right and wrong…? Oh, I still don’t trust myself…

    Well, I guess it’s one of those assumptions that needs changing…

    Right Juli? 

    I think you told me something almost identical to this:

    The Bible is absolute truth. Where we get into trouble is by confusing our interpretations with the Bible itself. Our interpretations of the Bible are never absolute truth - and any who believe otherwise are sadly deceived, laboring under a controlling delusion.

    Anyway, I might just be wrong, you might just be right, and we should all have the freedom to disagree.

    Now I’m thinking of Calvinism and how that’s all set in stone…


  271. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 10:38 pm

    Juli,

    O.K., I have a specific question now since I’m pretty sure I conatradicted myself. We can rest and trust the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. I know that’s true. Also we can trust ourselves to think and reason as we read the Word of God.

    So my question is, how do I tie these two thoughts together? You need both, I’m quite certain. We definitely need the Spirit, but we can’t go based on feelings or other’s interpretations, relinquishing our ability and right to reason. Is that about it?

    Trusting in myself–that sounds wrong to me. But that’s from the old days, right? SGM speak? I’m thinking I should reason this out for myself without asking you to spoon-feed me. Well, I need help I guess.

    Bree

  272. John Immel on May 2nd, 2009 11:46 pm

     
    “What am I afraid of? …..” 
     
    This is a good question.  The answer is simple to state but not simple to work out. 
     
    Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen; the human/divine force of creative, life giving power.  Said another way Faith is the fundamental assumption and energizing force of action that makes if possible for Man to rule and subdue, overcome every challenge, obstacle, pain and death in this life. 
     
    Fear is also the evidence of things not seen … but it is the human creative force twisted to expect corruption, destruction and death to prevail.  Said another way Fear is the fundamental assumption and de-energizing force of action that reduces Man to a stagnate, decaying, incapable, mass of anxiety, terror, and suffering.    
     
    Faith is the iterative process of peaceful proclamation, action, and life.
     
    Fear is the iterative process of tormented proclamation, stagnation, and death. 
     
    Like I said … that part is simple… This next part is not.
     
    The challenge of unraveling fear is learning to locate the source thought that renders the person tormented and stagnant.  And the maddening part is that it might be a group of ideas that are the culprit.  Most fears come from competing contradictory ideas that drive one into an intellectual and spiritual cul-de-sak.  Those ideas work in harmony to drive people believe in their impotence and affirm the correct action is … no action.  This eventually leads to stagnation… and stagnation will always end in death.  
     
    I would offer this:
     
    The process of overcoming fear starts with evaluating why you think what you think. 
    Identifying how the thoughts affirm inability.
    Identify the outcome you really want.
    Start talking about that outcome as if you intend to get there.    
    Take action (no matter how small) as if the outcome were so no matter what you can or can not see.
     
    Somewhere in this progression you will find that the fears fell away like so much chaff. 

  273. Bree on May 2nd, 2009 11:55 pm

    Thanks, John.  : )

    Could you set me up for 4:00 on Monday–so we can unravel this?  ; )

    Ever see the Bob Newhart skit, “Stop it!” ? Too funny.

  274. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 12:07 am

    “I will not be held prisoner.” hahahahhahahahahaha

    It is helpful, really.

    (Now I sound mad–or maybe confirmed it.  : )

    Truthfully, I know my fear is partially rooted in the legalistic mindset still hanging around–even though I know the truth. And also just SGM–I allowed them to answer for me, in a sense, for so long–if they said it was O.K., it was O.K.–like they had power over my salvation or something. So stepping out, shaking them off, is a bit fearful. I think that’s where I’m at with the kind of fear I was talking about up above. A memory eraser pill might work… Nah, I’ll follow your advice.

    But I’ve got 20 other fears, so let’s keep that appointment, K?  : )

  275. Juli on May 3rd, 2009 1:00 am

    Bree…I’m reading what you wrote I said about the Bible, interpretation, and truth, and wondering where or when I said it? Can you clarify? Wanting to know the context…thanks

  276. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 1:07 am

    You know, Juli, after I wrote it, I was trying to figure that out myself. I was thinking you said it to me on the phone. But I’m pretty sure I heard it or read it before the first time we spoke…
    Is it maybe something John wrote somewhere?
    I just can’t remember. I only know that wasn’t the first time I read/heard that.

    So do you agree with it?

    Oh, I think it was John. Someplace where he was talking about doctrine, no, systematic theology. Yeah, John, is that right?

  277. Sopwith on May 3rd, 2009 5:17 am

    Are you really out of your SGM Church?

    *
    “People’s voices came through filtered, strange. They could not penetrate my virtual SGM Kool-Aid induced fog; and I could not escape my virtual SGM induced prison.” 
    *
    The patient was then diagnosed with TSGMS (Note1), a debilitating illness…
    *
    “It’s very hard to describe the effects of this condition and others like it. That’s why they used strange words like “SGM mentally emasculated zombie”. But in my case the experience became sheer torture.”   — Odetobefree, SGM Survivor.
    *
    The patient went on to say:
    *
    “Frequent symptoms I experienced were: Spiritual lethargy, difficult thinking, poor concentration, nightmares, emotional dullness, depression, despair, inability to think or function outside of the group, the inability to make independent choices, self induced isolation . . .”
    *
    *
    Note:
    1. TSGMS, Toxic Sovereign Grace Ministries Syndrome. 
     

  278. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 7:18 am

    I was smiling until the last paragraph.

    Pretty darn close.

  279. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 10:43 am

    Juli,

    Well, since we’re both not at church today…

    : )

    I’m posting a link to THE book from the series I’ve mentioned–this is the one book from the series that made me want to be done with Christianity (about 3 years ago).

    If you wouldn’t mind reading through the description…. towards the bottom it talks about the importance of reason, which I take to mean my right to think for myself. But when I read this book back then, I couldn’t separate God and the church. I didn’t know that Jesus would want me to live a free life, using reason to rule over myself.

    I still have a hard time, like some nagging feeling that it’s wrong to see reason as trumping faith. Is that how you see it? That reason trumps faith? I know sometimes we have to have faith when we can’t understand. But we use our reason to see that it makes sense to put faith in God and His Word. Right?

    Can you say anything to me about this to help me feel more comfortable about embracing the idea? Or maybe I’m getting it wrong.

    It got me so excited the first time I read this book, and I was so eager to be free of the authority of SGM and to live life, that I walked away from Jesus for a time so I could have that freedom. I’ve told you this already, and how coming back meant it was even worse than before for me. I lost faith in myself–how could I walk away from Jesus like that? But He snatched me back, I do believe that. He worked in ways, did things that made it clear to me He was there, in my life, building my faith.

    But now, there’s still some residual fear to just walk out and into freedom. I hear everyone telling me that Jesus wants this for me. But the last time I did it, it meant leaving Jesus. I think you would tell me I need to recognize the lie and then speak the truth to myself, yes?

    Jesus came that I might have life and have it more abundantly.

    A quote from that book: “Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it.”

    I should say that this book is a depiction of objectivism. And Ann Rynd actually believed that the way we are to use reason would mean that we would not believe in God, I think. She said she wasn’t opposed to religion necessarily. But she seemed to oppose faith–blind faith. And I get that. God uses His Word to produce faith in us–He doesn’t expect us to just act without information. So the Bible promotes reason?

    Maybe I should see the legalism and half-truths taught at SGM as the part of religion that’s ridiculous, the part that seeks to enslave. And blind faith as a tool those who own us use to keep us in bondage, fear, and death. Does that sound right?

    I’m trying to synthesize what Rynd teaches with my faith, I guess. I’ve always had a hard time taking the good and forgetting the rest–I’m so all-or-nothing. Maybe the Bible clearly supports the idea of reason, and I just missed it because of my assumptions. You think?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_the_Fallen

  280. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 10:47 am

    And, see, I said nothing about the Holy Spirit. How do I synthesize all of these things?

  281. John on May 3rd, 2009 12:04 pm

    Bree…
    You are asking all the right questions….   You are taking the right actions…

    Rand was an extraordinary philosopher, probably one of the leading thinkers of the last 500 years, but she was no theologian, or an effective religionist commentator.  She equates Faith, with Disney pixy dust, which is really not surprising since Christianity has used the word Faith to mean: “Splash a little Tinkerbelle goop on what you don’t understand and that will make it all better.”

    She was right in this regard… “faith” and force have always been the destroyers of the modern world. And for that she is right to breathe all manner of invective towards Christianity.

    Christianity is overwhelmingly hostile to reason, for a host of … uh … reasons. So much so, that it is a wonder we are not still arguing for a flat earth.

    But make no mistake… God is an Objectivist, and even more scandalous (to some of my readership) God is the original Humanist.

    For the time being just know that reason and faith are not opposites.  Quite the reverse… they are essential corollaries.

    Give me time and I will set out too connect those dots.

    In the mean time, keep talking about your freedom and taking action in harmony with that declaration…. And then dance, dance, dance.

  282. John on May 3rd, 2009 12:06 pm

    and oh… 4:00 is fine… make sure you have your credit card … I’m expensive.

    : )
  283. Juli on May 3rd, 2009 12:09 pm

    Bree..I will think and pray on these things - and I am sure John will chime in as well :)  and add more thoughts later..

    and yes, I am NOT at church today…but I am very much enjoying God, meditating on His truths…I love quiet, restful Sundays. They were never like that for me before. Too hectic, too stressful…only thing I looked forward to was seeing friends..now I look forward to reflecting, meditating, relaxing, talking with God, playing with my son…just enjoying the day!

    in the meantime, I will say this - Faith and Reason are not mutually exclusive, despite what most people think. It is not an either/or, and of course you must ask yourself how you (or others for that matter) have defined what faith and reason are in the first place. This is a good starting point.

    Intellectuals are constantly hammered as being anti-faith..and I’m not sure why exactly because I certainly disagree with their assessment, but I bet John has a thought or two on this. I think I remember him writing about this before somewhere…hehe

    I do know that if the Bible says be transformed by the renewing of your mind…and repentance is in fact a change of the mind…the ability to use our minds plays a significant (if not primary) role in our journey of faith, however you define it.

    I know the fear of thinking you’re going to make some extreme reactionary decision based on your experiences and emotions…but you won’t IF you are using your mind to think. And that is what you are doing…you are thinking through all these things and making decisions about how to proceed..that is nothing but good and encourages truth in your life.

    I think you are in a very good place. You see, your MIND and not your emotions are driving your decision making process..so that is excellent. You have made the distinction that emotions are tied to your beliefs, and so even though you have some intense emotions right now, you are making yourself take a step back and have your thoughts dwell on your belief system. It’s not easy, but you are doing it…and you’ll be fine…

    more later…have to eat some breakfast :)

  284. Juli on May 3rd, 2009 12:13 pm

    what? now JOHN is posting before me too? I can’t keep up with you boys (you and Dan that is) :)

    ahahaha

    John, about Ayn Rand..I’ve had some mixed thoughts about her as well, some of her ideas: so right on, but overall not the correct synthesis I’ve come to realize, and now I see it in light of the reasons you mentioned above..and I think you are right

  285. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 12:33 pm

    Just realized, I replied to you two by email, but not on here… can’t have it looking as if I didn’t even care…

    Thank-you, both. I’m feeling a little more peaceful now. My mind is just racing, trying to get to the bottom of all of this. I’m having a hard time moving forward, like I need to settle all of this first. (The reason you tell me to dance.) And, truly, how can I live when my thoughts are all disjointed? I guess I’m living what I’m thinking–I mean the lack of order around here seems to indicate just that. 

    That’s what you told me, John, that I live consistent with my thinking. Guess so. I think this is the first time I’ve realized how true that is–I mean that there are actual actions, outworkings that can be seen based on my thinking. Cool! And it stinks. : )

    I’m eager to learn more.

    Unsuccessfully attempting to wait patiently,

    Bree

    P.S. I heard you were expensive. You’re worth it.

  286. Canary on May 3rd, 2009 2:07 pm

    Hey Guys!

    I was just catching up on the conversation, and have a few scripture verses to offer.  The first speaks of reasoning:  “Come, let us reason together…” (Is. 1:18).  This is the Lord speaking to His people.

    Then, there is Romans 14:5, the end of the verse: “…Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.”

    Also, 1 Cor. 2:14-16 is a doozy!:  “But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them (of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them) because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

    But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

    For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge?  But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart.” Amplified Bible

    It is not enough to think for ourselves.  We want to think like God does.  This takes knowing Who He Is, and adopting His manner of thinking and feeling.  I’m afraid a lot of us did not experience this through the leadership of SGM, who gave us much doctrine of man, who wished for us to think like THEY did, without the freedom to reason it out for ourselves.  Clearly, the above verses explain that we are called to reason, that our reasoning should be with the Lord, and that the end result of that reasoning will be to think like He does. :)

  287. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 2:43 pm

    Thank-you for sharing, Canary. Familiar but apparently overlooked verses. Very helpful. If the Bible says it’s so, that’s it then.  : )
    Pointing me to Jesus–gotta love that. I’m easily distracted.

    Bree

  288. Juli on May 3rd, 2009 2:58 pm

    Canary…awesome verses, thanks!

    I don’t understand why using our minds and thinking for ourselves has become so “evil”…wait, did I actually just say that?? haha

    how long has John hammered away that keeping the masses depraved and unable to think for themselves is one of the prerequisites to tyranny??

    so it stands to reason (no pun intended) why intellectualism and using your mind to reason and think logically has historically been given a bad rap, esp in the church. If you think you are stupid and ignorant, you act like it. Makes their job MUCH easier.

    Probably another reason why they stemmed the whole charismania thing (as they defined it)  in SGM..this “hearing God’s voice” really puts their job on the line, ya know?

    truth is, I think some are attracted to the charismatic movement simply out of frustration - but they throw their mind out in an attempt to find God - and end up being exactly what their critics say: emotional, irrational, etc. because they DON’T think..they feel.

    But having seen the outworkings of both, I think it goes back to why faith and reason are not exclusive but when we make them be such we run into problems…you can have both, the rational, intellectual thinking abilities combined with the passion, Spirit-led life and drive…and it’s all good.

    I’m rambling now…oops

  289. John on May 3rd, 2009 3:10 pm

    Canary… Awesome!

    Juli…. excellent ramble
  290. sopwith on May 3rd, 2009 4:03 pm

    SGM misbeahav’in?

    HowDee Ya’All,
    *
    *
    “Sopy was right in this regard… “Perverted Faith” and SGM Force have always been da destroyers’ dar at doze SGM churches. And for dat Sopy is right to breathe all’s manner of proverbial invective towards doze Virtual Rabid SGM Pastors…”  (VRSGMP’s)
    *
    YeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
    *
    Sgm Pixie Dust….. (SGMPD)
    *
    “Splash dat little C.J.Tinkerbelle goop on what you don’t understand and dat will’s makes it all bedder…” , Ya hear!  he he
    *
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    *
    *
    In a little, ;~0
    *
    Dr. Sopy
    *
    *
    I can hear doze SGM bull frogs’ howl’in at me…
    Dem SGM monkey’s swing’in through doze plexi pulpits….
    Don’t bodder me… Juz don’t bodder me, none…
    Cuz John Immel, saze dat de “truth” can not be briddled!
    Da truth can’t be briddled!  do, do ,do da do…………..
    I’ze hear my Jesus a say’in I’ze de truth, I’ze de truth, Which part is mak’in you ta be misbeahav’in?
    *
    C.J.Tinkerbelle, yous a swim’in ins mighty shalla waders…
    Bedda watch it or doze gada’s from Heaven, all gets ya! (or was dat hounds?)
    *
    O’ never mind… >grin<
    *
    do, do ,do da do…………..
    do, do ,do da do…………..
    do, do ,do da do…………..
    *
    *
    Gots me a nudder case of TSGMS, godda run…
    *
    C Ya!
    *
    *
    Note: TSGMS; Toxic Sovereign Grace Ministries Syndrome.

  291. Canary on May 3rd, 2009 4:11 pm

    Bree,

    Sadly, my SGM experience did not point me to Jesus, but to doctrine, holiness, sin, membership to the local body…need I go on?  It is so easy for us to get our focus off the One True God.  Maybe we learned too well how to think of other things, to avoid or miss the reason for our salvation - Jesus Christ - in deference to the church fund, the care groups, leadership and who has authority over whom, etc. 

    I have had to relearn how to think, and how to pursue the Lord (not holiness, doctrine, obedience, but Jesus, Who then teaches me all I need to know).  It is a changing of the mind, a redirection from our old thoughts and practices left behind in the controlling church.  Much of the old thoughts stemmed from fear.  Fear was used to manipulate us (whether knowingly or not) to obey, to stay in line, to follow the crowd, so that we could have “happy pastors”.  I have since learned to be very suspicious of anything in my life that motivates me to action out of fear.  God does not use fear to guide us.  How ridiculous that I ever thought He did!

    Anyway Bree, I hope that the next few months find your life being filled with more and more of His presence, more of His peace, and more of His rest.  You are not alone!

    John, thanks for this outlet of truth.  Juli, good words!

  292. Sopwith on May 3rd, 2009 4:35 pm

    John,
    HowDee,
    Juli don’t ramble.
    She persistently traverses doze “gentle” roll’in hills of “Truth”
    ….and don’t yous forget dat.  (he he)

    Gota love it!  ;~)
    Peace out!

    Sopy

  293. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 4:39 pm

    Canary,

    Thank-you. I hope so, too. I’m going to hopefully remember that fear should never be my motivator. That seems a very important point, especially for me just now.

    Blessings,

    Bree

  294. Juli on May 3rd, 2009 4:40 pm

    Sopy, what a poetic way of describing my ramblings..haha

    being the visual person I am, next time my thoughts begin going on and on I’ll think of beautiful green rolling hills…

    of course the rolling hills of truth kinda make me nauseated at times..mainly because I figure out what I DIDN’T know before…but it passes, and life is good. because the truth sets us free.

  295. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 4:59 pm

    Hey Juli,

    Hope you had a nice afternoon.  : )

  296. Bree on May 3rd, 2009 5:05 pm

    Dr. Sopy,

    Got anything there for really hard decisions?

    I remember, Canary says that I need to learn to go to Jesus without the help of the VRSGMP’s.

    Is that the remedy? But do I make a mistake if I turn from the VRSGMP’s to the friendly voices of the Spiritual Tyranny blog?

    I think I need a little help just now getting to that place where I ought to be…

    Sincerely,

    Bree

  297. Sopwith on May 3rd, 2009 5:38 pm

    “Baby steps…”

    Bree,
    *

    Baby steps…Baby steps…