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	<title>Comments on: Spiritual Crack</title>
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	<description>Thinking: the Antidote to Despotism</description>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-19394</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2011 01:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-19394</guid>
		<description>Sara… 
Augustine agreeing with what is currently happening in the church…. hummm…


Well, you might have a point. He’d think we were being far, far, far, too soft and would have advocated the oppression of those who “protest” against the truth faith, the Catholic Church. 

The definition of a “protestant” in Brother Augies day was called Donatism, because they protested against the impiety of the Church. To address their protest, Augustine developed the doctrines that led to the slaughter and pillaging of the Donatists. Brother Augie started out magnanimous enough, but his theological dissent eventually became theological condemnation and a full on advocacy of violent repression. 

As an aside, I find it rather hilarious that committed Protestants want to claim theological brother hood with a man who would most certainly have encouraged the “true” Catholic Bishops to protect their flock from such divisive schismatic’s. So, all those Calvinist Reformed types that want to put Luther and Johnny C and Augustine in the same sentence as they try to weave together their own “orthodox” apostolic succession are walking the path of highest irony.  I do soooo love irony.  
 
Anyway… before I digress; there is no real extrapolation when reading say, “On Correction of Donatists” that details his open advocacy for violence to compel conversion to what he considered the true Catholic faith.  Among the many things Augustine said on the subject he is pretty clear about his acceptance of coercion to persuade heretics: 

[the] thing to be considered when any one is coerced, is not the mere fact of the coercion, but ht nature of that which he is coerced, whether it be good or bad: not that any one can be good in spite of his own will, but that, through fear of suffering what he does not desire, he either renounces his hostile prejudices or is compelled to examine truth of which he has been content ended, or seek truth of which he had been ignorant, and desiring to hold now what he had rejected.  (Ep. 93.5.16)
 

Historic ecclesiastics followed his doctrinal standard of coercion well. Pope Innocent the III certainly got the message. He was not at all shy about using force to compel fidelity to the Catholic Church.  
 
And Catholic Canon Law 1369 has this comment: 

A person is to be punished with a just penalty, who ... utters blasphemy, or gravely harms public morals, or rails at or excites hatred of or contempt for religion or the Church.
 

And Pope Paul III, 1576 had this warm fuzzy declaration of Christian love:

 
I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do and to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither sex, age nor condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants’ heads against the wall, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race.
 

There is plenty more where this came from….
From my perspective the only “extrapolation” done is by scholars frantic to down play Augustine’s philosophical and doctrinal violence for the express purpose enforcing the Church definition of TRUTH. Their “extrapolation” is more like the Jedi mind trick: “These are not the heretics you seek!  That is not the rack that they were to be pull on.  He didn’t REALLY mean ‘beat them with rods’. Piffle it is no different than what happened to the wayward school boy.”

 
Lol
 
Anyway… thanks for your comment.  Hope to hear more from you.  I will give the links you offered a look see.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sara…<br />
Augustine agreeing with what is currently happening in the church…. hummm…</p>
<p>Well, you might have a point. He’d think we were being far, far, far, too soft and would have advocated the oppression of those who “protest” against the truth faith, the Catholic Church. </p>
<p>The definition of a “protestant” in Brother Augies day was called Donatism, because they protested against the impiety of the Church. To address their protest, Augustine developed the doctrines that led to the slaughter and pillaging of the Donatists. Brother Augie started out magnanimous enough, but his theological dissent eventually became theological condemnation and a full on advocacy of violent repression. </p>
<p>As an aside, I find it rather hilarious that committed Protestants want to claim theological brother hood with a man who would most certainly have encouraged the “true” Catholic Bishops to protect their flock from such divisive schismatic’s. So, all those Calvinist Reformed types that want to put Luther and Johnny C and Augustine in the same sentence as they try to weave together their own “orthodox” apostolic succession are walking the path of highest irony.  I do soooo love irony.  <br />
 <br />
Anyway… before I digress; there is no real extrapolation when reading say, “On Correction of Donatists” that details his open advocacy for violence to compel conversion to what he considered the true Catholic faith.  Among the many things Augustine said on the subject he is pretty clear about his acceptance of coercion to persuade heretics: </p>
<p>[the] thing to be considered when any one is coerced, is not the mere fact of the coercion, but ht nature of that which he is coerced, whether it be good or bad: not that any one can be good in spite of his own will, but that, through fear of suffering what he does not desire, he either renounces his hostile prejudices or is compelled to examine truth of which he has been content ended, or seek truth of which he had been ignorant, and desiring to hold now what he had rejected.  (Ep. 93.5.16)<br />
 </p>
<p>Historic ecclesiastics followed his doctrinal standard of coercion well. Pope Innocent the III certainly got the message. He was not at all shy about using force to compel fidelity to the Catholic Church.  <br />
 <br />
And Catholic Canon Law 1369 has this comment: </p>
<p>A person is to be punished with a just penalty, who &#8230; utters blasphemy, or gravely harms public morals, or rails at or excites hatred of or contempt for religion or the Church.<br />
 </p>
<p>And Pope Paul III, 1576 had this warm fuzzy declaration of Christian love:</p>
<p> <br />
I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do and to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither sex, age nor condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants’ heads against the wall, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race.<br />
 </p>
<p>There is plenty more where this came from….<br />
From my perspective the only “extrapolation” done is by scholars frantic to down play Augustine’s philosophical and doctrinal violence for the express purpose enforcing the Church definition of TRUTH. Their “extrapolation” is more like the Jedi mind trick: “These are not the heretics you seek!  That is not the rack that they were to be pull on.  He didn’t REALLY mean ‘beat them with rods’. Piffle it is no different than what happened to the wayward school boy.”</p>
<p> <br />
Lol<br />
 <br />
Anyway… thanks for your comment.  Hope to hear more from you.  I will give the links you offered a look see.</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-19393</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2011 19:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-19393</guid>
		<description>John, I agree with much of your analysis of what is currently taking place in the church.  I am not sure whether Augustine would actually agree with the application of his ideas that has come to pass.  I think many ecclesiastics may have taken Augustine&#039;s comments and extrapolated them out to the nth degree, and missed some logical turns along the way.
For an interesting and refreshing view of the biblical view of authority, and the direct access that all believers have to God, please explore the teachings of Eddie Hyatt.  Found here: &lt;a title=&quot;http://www.eddiehyatt.com/&quot; href=&quot;http://www.eddiehyatt.com/&quot;&gt;www.eddiehyatt.com&lt;/a&gt;  If you go to his audio/video archives, you can listen to his views that includes we are not called to be cookie cutter Christians, and the priesthood of all believers, his view that there is no offices that have more authority than the lay believer, and that there is no one church government spoken of in the New Testament.  His wife Sue has a series of free videos about the equality of women in the church at her own web site &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icwhp.org/&quot;&gt;www.icwhp.org&lt;/a&gt; under basic studies.  They have helped me a lot, as I have absolutely refused to let anyone in the church beat me down, or rob me of my identity for years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I agree with much of your analysis of what is currently taking place in the church.  I am not sure whether Augustine would actually agree with the application of his ideas that has come to pass.  I think many ecclesiastics may have taken Augustine&#8217;s comments and extrapolated them out to the nth degree, and missed some logical turns along the way.<br />
For an interesting and refreshing view of the biblical view of authority, and the direct access that all believers have to God, please explore the teachings of Eddie Hyatt.  Found here: <a title="http://www.eddiehyatt.com/" href="http://www.eddiehyatt.com/">http://www.eddiehyatt.com</a>  If you go to his audio/video archives, you can listen to his views that includes we are not called to be cookie cutter Christians, and the priesthood of all believers, his view that there is no offices that have more authority than the lay believer, and that there is no one church government spoken of in the New Testament.  His wife Sue has a series of free videos about the equality of women in the church at her own web site <a href="http://www.icwhp.org/">http://www.icwhp.org</a> under basic studies.  They have helped me a lot, as I have absolutely refused to let anyone in the church beat me down, or rob me of my identity for years.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheryl Matters</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-7288</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheryl Matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-7288</guid>
		<description>Great article.  Love to read more!  I don&#039;t indentify with the problem of modest women as I have been around the opposite of that problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article.  Love to read more!  I don&#8217;t indentify with the problem of modest women as I have been around the opposite of that problem.</p>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-7274</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-7274</guid>
		<description>Bob… I agree. Stand up on your own legs.

To that very end I wrote: &lt;a href=&quot;http://spiritualtyranny.com/men-and-dogs/&quot;&gt;http://spiritualtyranny.com/men-and-dogs/&lt;/a&gt;


Thanks for your comment.  And welcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob… I agree. Stand up on your own legs.</p>
<p>To that very end I wrote: <a href="http://spiritualtyranny.com/men-and-dogs/">http://spiritualtyranny.com/men-and-dogs/</a></p>
<p>Thanks for your comment.  And welcome.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-7270</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-7270</guid>
		<description>interesting thoughts.  I learned a long time ago to stand up on my hind legs as God created me upright...and I don&#039;t buy the message just because it comes from the pulpit.  I measure it by the scriptures.  Its not that hard to do if you dump the filters of denominationalism and apply what is clear and hold lightly what is not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting thoughts.  I learned a long time ago to stand up on my hind legs as God created me upright&#8230;and I don&#8217;t buy the message just because it comes from the pulpit.  I measure it by the scriptures.  Its not that hard to do if you dump the filters of denominationalism and apply what is clear and hold lightly what is not.</p>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6726</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6726</guid>
		<description>Ken… good to hear from you.  

Thanks for your comment.  Your first,  I think?


It is always good to hear that people are getting free of the most destructive body of doctrine ever perpetrated on humanity.  
Glad you were saved.  

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken… good to hear from you.  </p>
<p>Thanks for your comment.  Your first,  I think?</p>
<p>It is always good to hear that people are getting free of the most destructive body of doctrine ever perpetrated on humanity. <br />
Glad you were saved.  </p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6725</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6725</guid>
		<description>well written, thought provoking and all true--- stupendous effort, john--- my brother and I were &quot;SAVED&quot;&quot; from modernity and we love it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well written, thought provoking and all true&#8212; stupendous effort, john&#8212; my brother and I were &#8220;SAVED&#8221;" from modernity and we love it</p>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6673</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6673</guid>
		<description>Pat Self… Thanks for your comment.  Good to see you here.  You have joined thousands of readers that lurk here on Spiritual Tyranny, others just like you who have puzzle pieces that didn’t seem to fit in the bigger picture: people who have suffered tyranny and don’t understand why.    My goal is substantially more than a lantern.  My goal is shine a blowtorch and wage relentless philosophical and theological nuclear war on destructive doctrines.  

Yee hawww 

To be sure, more is coming.  I have two major projects that I am working on now that I hope to have ready for mass distribution in 2010. Of course, there is another article in the pipe--still working out the rough edges before I go to a recording session.  

As for an email list… up the in the left hand corner you should see a link for an RSS feed.  And you should also see a Technorati link at the bottom of a page.   I recently had someone bug me about Twitter. Maybe I will set up an account for that as well. 

But anyway, the services mentioned are the mass distribution service for the Spiritualtyranny.com.   Click the buttons and you should get the sign up info for following posts. 

Again, thanks for being out there.  I’d probably do this even if no one read, but it is great for my SELF to know that people are consuming what I create.  

I receive your blessing. 

To liberty in the Anointed Jesus! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat Self… Thanks for your comment.  Good to see you here.  You have joined thousands of readers that lurk here on Spiritual Tyranny, others just like you who have puzzle pieces that didn’t seem to fit in the bigger picture: people who have suffered tyranny and don’t understand why.    My goal is substantially more than a lantern.  My goal is shine a blowtorch and wage relentless philosophical and theological nuclear war on destructive doctrines.  </p>
<p>Yee hawww </p>
<p>To be sure, more is coming.  I have two major projects that I am working on now that I hope to have ready for mass distribution in 2010. Of course, there is another article in the pipe&#8211;still working out the rough edges before I go to a recording session.  </p>
<p>As for an email list… up the in the left hand corner you should see a link for an RSS feed.  And you should also see a Technorati link at the bottom of a page.   I recently had someone bug me about Twitter. Maybe I will set up an account for that as well. </p>
<p>But anyway, the services mentioned are the mass distribution service for the Spiritualtyranny.com.   Click the buttons and you should get the sign up info for following posts. </p>
<p>Again, thanks for being out there.  I’d probably do this even if no one read, but it is great for my SELF to know that people are consuming what I create.  </p>
<p>I receive your blessing. </p>
<p>To liberty in the Anointed Jesus! </p>
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		<title>By: PAT SELF</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6671</link>
		<dc:creator>PAT SELF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6671</guid>
		<description>DO YOU HAVE AN E-MAIL LIST THAT YOU COULD PUT ME ON TO RECEIVE YOUR BLOG...................I GREATLY APPRECIATE WHAT I HAVE READ SO FAR AND WOULD BE GRATEFUL TO HEAR AND SEE MORE.........YOU HAVE TAKEN MANY PIECES OF MY &quot;PUZZLE&quot; AND PUT THEM TOGETHER TO MAKE A MUCH CLEARER PICTURE......WE ARE TO WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE....IS IN THE LIGHT........THANKS FOR HOLDING UP A LANTERN OF TRUTH FOR WAYFARING STRANGERS ALONG THE WAY.   IT IS THE LEAST THAT WE CAN DO FOR ONE ANOTHER...............GOD BLESS YOU</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DO YOU HAVE AN E-MAIL LIST THAT YOU COULD PUT ME ON TO RECEIVE YOUR BLOG&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.I GREATLY APPRECIATE WHAT I HAVE READ SO FAR AND WOULD BE GRATEFUL TO HEAR AND SEE MORE&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;YOU HAVE TAKEN MANY PIECES OF MY &#8220;PUZZLE&#8221; AND PUT THEM TOGETHER TO MAKE A MUCH CLEARER PICTURE&#8230;&#8230;WE ARE TO WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE&#8230;.IS IN THE LIGHT&#8230;&#8230;..THANKS FOR HOLDING UP A LANTERN OF TRUTH FOR WAYFARING STRANGERS ALONG THE WAY.   IT IS THE LEAST THAT WE CAN DO FOR ONE ANOTHER&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;GOD BLESS YOU</p>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6654</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 04:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6654</guid>
		<description>SueBee
Thanks for your comments.  I think you are new to posting.  Awesome.  Thanks for reading.  And it is great that you are heading toward freedom.   There is nothing better than morally clear self-appointment.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SueBee<br />
Thanks for your comments.  I think you are new to posting.  Awesome.  Thanks for reading.  And it is great that you are heading toward freedom.   There is nothing better than morally clear self-appointment.  </p>
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		<title>By: SueBee</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6652</link>
		<dc:creator>SueBee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6652</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this post John.   I see that I had been a spiritual crack addict.  God opened my eyes a year ago that something was amiss and I noticed folks distancing themselves once I refused to see myself as wretched...finally on the road to freedom!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this post John.   I see that I had been a spiritual crack addict.  God opened my eyes a year ago that something was amiss and I noticed folks distancing themselves once I refused to see myself as wretched&#8230;finally on the road to freedom!</p>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6629</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6629</guid>
		<description>and no one barked.  hahahaha

ROTFLMBO</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and no one barked.  hahahaha</p>
<p>ROTFLMBO</p>
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		<title>By: Canary</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6628</link>
		<dc:creator>Canary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6628</guid>
		<description>Yep, freedom is great.  I continually compare what is happening in our churches with what goes on in our government.  I&#039;ve asked this question before:  why do some churches expect us to give up some of our freedoms when we walk through the church doors?  Especially women?  Because men are better at governing us than God?  Do I sound like an anarchist?  I&#039;m not.  I have seen true Elders at work as they watch over a meeting while the saints are free to edify one another with the gifts God gave each of them.   It is a beautiful thing.  Believe it or not, no one barked!

Lord, it&#039;s good to be off the spiritual crack!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, freedom is great.  I continually compare what is happening in our churches with what goes on in our government.  I&#8217;ve asked this question before:  why do some churches expect us to give up some of our freedoms when we walk through the church doors?  Especially women?  Because men are better at governing us than God?  Do I sound like an anarchist?  I&#8217;m not.  I have seen true Elders at work as they watch over a meeting while the saints are free to edify one another with the gifts God gave each of them.   It is a beautiful thing.  Believe it or not, no one barked!</p>
<p>Lord, it&#8217;s good to be off the spiritual crack!</p>
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		<title>By: John Immel</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6627</link>
		<dc:creator>John Immel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6627</guid>
		<description>Canary… so good to hear from you and thank you for your kind words.  Freedom is an awesome thing.  Thank God for real freedom born of spiritual confidence and moral clarity. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Canary… so good to hear from you and thank you for your kind words.  Freedom is an awesome thing.  Thank God for real freedom born of spiritual confidence and moral clarity. </p>
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		<title>By: Canary</title>
		<link>http://spiritualtyranny.com/spiritual-crack/comment-page-1/#comment-6623</link>
		<dc:creator>Canary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://spiritualtyranny.com/?p=941#comment-6623</guid>
		<description>Wow, John.  

I was just checking in after a long absence.  As usual, I am blown away by the truth of your words.  Self-doubt was used so often in my ex-controlling church that I didn&#039;t even know who I was anymore!  It took years for me to have any kind of trust in my ability to know and hear the Lord.  Coming off the spiritual crack was terrifying, exhausting, and absolutely life changing.  Now I get high on my freedom in Christ, and His marvelous grace!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, John.  </p>
<p>I was just checking in after a long absence.  As usual, I am blown away by the truth of your words.  Self-doubt was used so often in my ex-controlling church that I didn&#8217;t even know who I was anymore!  It took years for me to have any kind of trust in my ability to know and hear the Lord.  Coming off the spiritual crack was terrifying, exhausting, and absolutely life changing.  Now I get high on my freedom in Christ, and His marvelous grace!</p>
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