Concerned asked me a couple of questions in my post Speaking of Church Polity. I think the content of the question and the corresponding answer needs its own treatment.
Here is what she asked:
John, in reading some things about the various forms of church government, it seems most “truly” reformed churches adhere to either a congregational or presbyterian form of church government. However, the SGM model is episcopalian it seems (heirarchy: power flows from the top down only)
So here is my question – why do you think SGM tries to pass themselves off as Reformed simply because they are Calvinistic when none of their other beliefs remotely resemble historical reformed theology?
Is is fair to say SGM is Calvinistic but not reformed, even though they call themselves reformed?
* * *
I LOVE these questions. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THESE QUESTIONS. LOVE IT. LOVE IT. LOVE IT. That means you all are catching on. These questions show forth that people are actually looking at the content of what the Hair Club for Men claim. And if you are looking at the content, it becomes very easy to see that the Arena of Ideas they fancy themselves in is NOT as neat and tidy and unarguable as Sovereign Grace Ministries would like to pretend.
Concerned, the heart of your question is WHY? Why does SGM do what they do? Why do they call themselves Reformed when in fact they don’t conform to the content of the Reformed Practice? It is always a bold undertaking to answer about someone else’s motive. But I’m up to the challenge.
The short answer to why does Sovereign Grace Ministries claim Reformed Status is fear.
No… let me amend. The short answer to why does Sovereign Grace Ministries claim Reformed Status is stone cold, stark terror.
What are they afraid of? They are afraid that they are not truly authorized to preach, that they really may not be in charge, that they might not have anything to offer, that at the end of the day that they (CJ) might be wrong.
I know… that is a rather bold, generalizing explanation, but given the time and space, I’m pretty sure that I can lay out the parts and pieces of their overriding preoccupation.
But Exhibit A is embedded in Eric “Phenomenal” Simmons’ comments about bloggers. Well, not about bloggers specifically but his overarching need to discredit those folks on the Internet as irrelevant post-adolescents with nothing but heresy to talk about. His comments are pure demagoguery, designed to play on the fears of his CLC audience to warn them away from ideas: ideas he cannot compete with.
The mindset of fear is endemic within the Sovereign Grace Ministries’ culture.
Exhibit B is their history. Long before SGM was… SGM, they were GOB and PDI/CLC. Their foray into shepherding is part and parcel of the same preoccupation: who is authorized to be in charge, and preach, and arbitrate God stuff. CJ and Larry Tomczak, et al were authoritarian LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG before they read Piper, and Spurgeon, and Packer.
Exhibit C is how they use the doctrines of Reformed Theology. I want to expand on this last point so I need to illustrate some Sovereign Grace Ministries algebra.
“watch your life and your doctrine” = mentally reflecting + Good Theology = Sound Doctrine = a specific Theological system = Orthodoxy = Authentic Christianity.
Orthodoxy = Reformed Theology
Ergo
Authentic Christianity = Reformed Theology
AND
Reformed Theology = Calvinism
With me so far? Okay… good.
Now I need to add the last part of the SGM equation.
Passioned Orthodoxy = PDI Passion + Orthodoxy
The last part of the equation is most important to your original question “How can SGM claim to be REFORMED when they really don’t adhere to the totality of REFORMED TRADITION?”
See, Sovereign Grace Ministries wants to play both sides of the intellectual fence. They use “Reformed Theology” to deflect criticism. Object to the content of their doctrine and they immediately say, “But we are Orthodox, how can you object? We believe what all right-thinking historic Christians have always believed. How can you object to what Paul himself preached ‘Christ and him crucified’?” Upon criticism, the critic places himself unsound doctrine camp eliminating his disparagement from consideration.
But as PDI/CLC were making the transition from the charismatic-ish movement to the Reformed Tradition, they ran square into their first and second departure from Orthodox teaching. Reformed doctrine is the home of cessationist teaching… meaning the gifts of the spirit–tongues, healing, et al.–passed away. Many of the churches of the reformed tradition prohibited music and musical instruments from worship.
What to do? We are a bunch of ’60s throwbacks that like to jump around at a rock concert in our tie dyes. Bob Kauflin isn’t going to stop playing the electric piano. And we’re not going to suddenly disavow speaking in tongues for the last 20 years.
How do we justify departures from the very orthodoxy that we use to validate our doctrine?
Well… in reality, they just ignore the implications. But their PR machine went into full gear and decided their doctrinal deviations were the product of Passion. Well… who can argue with that?
Their use of Reformed Theology is a smokescreen to insulate themselves from criticism of the content of their practice. Their deviations from the Reformed Tradition are justified as modern expressions of their unique Sovereign Grace Ministries passion.
As for their use of Calvinism … well … if there was ever a body of teaching that absolved a man of the outcomes of his doctrine … this is it. If you pray for the sick and folks don’t get well, what is the reason? God is sovereign. Ergo, the content of your life is the product of Divine will. You preach endlessly that folks should not sin but yet they do. This is living proof of the doctrine of Pervasive Depravity. You pray for the unbeliever to get saved but yet they don’t respond. That is a function of Limited Atonement. You preach the hard truth of the Gospel, but folks leave your church and call you a cult. No mystery here, this is the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints in action. If one cannot persevere in the hard truth, those who leave are living God’s necessarily appointed deception.
As a pastor, how can you be held accountable to ANY outcome within the body? Logically, you can’t and practically you won’t because the doctrine exempts outcomes from your preview.
As for their polity … in practice, SGM are papists. Charles Joseph is the Vicar.
For whatever reason my hyper link did not translate to my comment above. Sooo… this is the link to the conversation that CD host is refrencing.
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/23/sovereign-grace-ministries-hyper-charismatic/
Concerned —
Summa is essentially a FAQ for the Christian faith composed at the end of the 13th century. wikipedia article and online version. It was in many ways a mini reformation, it was part of a move out of the Christianity of the dark ages and back to the earlier Catholicism of the 5th century; at the same time it was modern in its own way.
As far as mysticism or spiritualism, standard dictionary stuff:
mysticism — engaging in rites and practices in search of direct knowledge of ultimate reality and God.
spiritualism — interacting with the non material world.
Is there a difference between praying to God and praying to a wall?
Does the holy spirit do anything?
When the author of Hebrews asserts God speaks through our now greater sacrifice and we should listen, was she right?
Hey John —
Wow! Glad you enjoyed.
I like your separation between living out of your head and effective knowledge. The thing is I don’t know of much ineffective knowledge if you look across a reasonable time frame (say a few centuries). A century after a pure theory is worked it is generally part of applied theories and within another century part of an important technology. It may not always be obvious what would be the application.
I love the example of Pascal and matrix algebra. Pascal developed the theory almost fully. He himself could never imagine the usefulness of a mathematics which required little theoretical understanding and substituted instead the ability to do thousands of simple arithmetic problems accurately and quickly. Pascal found it fascinating that it was possible to reduce theory so effectively to computation, but the number of computations was so overwhelming…. no one would ever want to do math this way. But of course today we know of things that are rather stupid but can do simple math really really fast. Matrix algebra + computers has transformred: physics, chemistry, medicine, cinema, manufacturing, navigation…
Or to choose another example where the process even faster… after the first World War Structuralism became an academic fad. Can one imagine a more facile naval gazing endeavor than a group of professors studying how Professors in different fields organize their literature? Yet less than 100 later it is the lens through which most young people read every piece of literature (structuralism became literary post-modernism). The fact that John MacArthur has to author a rant about how members of his congregation are being seduced by what amounts structuralist approaches to the bible is pretty clear evidence that this navel gazing has born some fruit so much so that many 20 year olds can’t conceive of how to read in a pre-structuralist paradigm. A complete transformation of the way man understands reading and narrative so complete that the younger can’t imagine that their views were ever not part of human understanding.
And finally modern art. The awareness of the relationship between place and sight that men like Picasso gave us a century ago is what makes complex visualizations, for example in a video game, even possible. Sure you need the matrix algebra to do the computations but without Picasso what would you be trying to compute?
So I guess I don’t think this sort of pointless study actually exists in practice. Building pyramids requires the labor of thousands, even intellectual ones.
I agree with you btw on your comments regarding Mishnah and Jesus (particularly Q2 material). I’ve been rolling around in my mind creating a good study of Enoch cross linking to the rest of the NT both ways. A good blog which explores Christianity in a Jewish context is (Voice of Iyov).
CD Host said: “When the author of Hebrews asserts God speaks through our now greater sacrifice and we should listen, was she right?”
LOL… you really are gonna mess with people, aren’t you?
hahahaha
you really are gonna mess with people aren’t you?
Yeah, why not. You have a mostly female crowd… Prisca / Apollos as the author of the Hebrews has a pedigree from Luther through to Harnack. I figure it undermines CBMW nonsense that C.J. likes to teach.
I actually have an actual current SGMer on my board. I don’t know if he has seen the SGM threads. So far he’s been focusing on the pro-homosexual, pro-choice and pro-women threads.
This whole website and connected comments makes me laugh. First, I haven’t found a single line of scripture referenced, only vain arguments of a bunch of people whining about how they got “burned.” (we aren’t in heaven yet people, remember people still do sin, deal with it) I’ll keep looking for some Bible verses, but so far haven’t found any(oh wait, I found 2!). Second this entire site is slander and therefore quite dangerous. Tread gently friends. Blogging slander against Christ’s bride is not anonymous from Him or the Father. (oh and this site IS decidedly slanderous clearly breaking all Biblical steps for how to be reconciled with a brother in Christ) It’s clearly a complain fest.
How about we add a little truth to this site? :
Psalm 15:3 “and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman.”
Psalm 35:15-16 “But when I stumbled, they gathered in glee; attackers gathered against me when I was unaware. They slandered me without ceasing. Like the ungodly they maliciously mocked; they gnashed their teeth at me.” (sounds like the author visited this site.)
Psalm 10:19 Whoever spreads slander is a fool. (God said it, not me)
1 Cor 6:10 “nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (It sort of puts whining about your bad church experiences into perspective huh?)
1 Peter 3:16 “keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.”
Listen, if any of you are believers in Christ and have received a new heart that is justified by his redemptive blood, then you should not be blogging in this manner, It does not bring glory to God and you will be held accountable for every word typed as this is not Biblical. If your first reaction to this comment is defensiveness then you know you are in a wrong place as I have used the Word of the God of Heaven to state my case. If you still have a problem at that point, take it up with God now, before He takes it up with you. At that time, you wont have a keyboard to post a witty reply. Clearly you are all without sin because you sure are tossing a lot of stones.
Vaughn,
Welcome to the party. Hope to see more of you.
Peace …
What is worse than no Bible verses?
Using scripture to bully people. SGM leaders seem to have taken Bible-bullying to a fine art.
**db** I fail to see how the Holy, inerrant scripture breathed by the One who formed the fingers you use to slander His church, can be used to “bully” people. Perhaps you can explain to me how the Word of God that accomplishes everything it sets out to do can be used to “bully?” And there is nothing worse than not using scripture to tether one’s self to reality. Better be without sense than misapply it as you do.
What happened? Did someone in a Sovereign Grace church make an observation about your life using the word of God to point out an area that was in need of change? Did that attack your pride? Did that hurt your feelings? Was that shocking for you? Is that what you are calling “bullying?” If so, grow a thicker skin and realize that we are all sinners attempting to walk through life helping each other grow. –as God has commanded us– Guess what? You are a sinner, as am I. Just deal.
I like how you had no response to 99% of what I wrote and instead bypassed that whole silly part about slander in order to slander more about a church’s leadership. Oh foolish person, who has bewitched you? I don’t write these bold things of my own wisdom or knowledge. Based on objective truth found solely in the scriptures, you are a fool. There is no getting around it. This isn’t simply my estimation of you, it’s God’s. If you call that “bullying” then you hate wisdom and correction ergo the Bible calls you even more the fool.
Bear in mind, I’m also a fool. I don’t think myself better than you. Quite the opposite, my foolishness and sin are (in my opinion) very much worse than yours. So do not hear that I think I’m “holier than thou.” This should lead us both to a race to the cross as opposed to a battle of wits and semantics. I can only say such things in the boldness of which I have spoken because I have been quite foolish in my past and it took someone to kick me in the rear and tell me I was being a stupid, foolish person. Again, if defensiveness is your first reaction, then it’s clear your heart is hardened and only God’s spirit, not my words, that will ever soften it. I will trust in the Spirit to do it’s work in His perfect timing.
Vaughn,
You apparently know little of the particulars of my circumstances with SGM (PDI in my day.)
I was dismembered from one of their churches and was accused of being unsubmissive when I challenged *them* to open up their Bible and justify their actions. And by, “Them” I mean the pastors one of whom has a recognizable name.
I would welcome the use of scripture to justify and defend actions but I must remind you that Satan, himself bullied Jesus with Bible verses so get off your high horse. People have misused scripture to keep people in their place for thousands of years. I find it somewhat astonishing that you would attempt to cowl me with the very word that has been the source of spiritual nourishment.
I will defend the practice of exposing some of the practices at SG churches to the light.
Vaughn B —
I’ve been chatting on my blog and related blogs with people from SGM and people from x-SGM groups for a while. I have no personal biases against SGM.
So far of the maybe 3 dozen SGMers I have yet to see one who can actually stand on scripture on a single point that has been questioned. You are 0 for 35 in being subordinate to God’s word when it conflicts with your doctrines. Starting with requirements that you be aim to be correct in public rebukes which you seem to feel doesn’t apply to you.
In DB’s case (while I haven’t finished documenting it fully yet), SGM committed a clear cut heresy of holding a non scriptural doctrine (Gary Ezzo) as an essential of the faith sufficient for excommunication, and performing an excommunication in violation of the doctrines as set down by Jesus in Matt 18:15-8 (essentially having a contested erasure). Further after having been confronted about this in writing refusing to correct the error.
Those are clear cut violations of scriptures. Those scriptural violations are doctrinal. Those violations were done by SGM leadership intentionally, volitionally with foreknowledge. They have been upheld and defended for years. That constitutes unrepentant heresy not someone hurting her DB’s feelings and her over reacting.
Maybe next time you should know what you are talking about before swinging away?
Yipes I missed a critical word in my post. John if you can correct please do if not let this post stand:
So far of the maybe 3 dozen SGMers
should be:
So far of the maybe 3 dozen active SGMers
__DB and CD Host__ I bring my observations in this manner (publicly and with boldness) because you’ve chosen to air your offenses against SGM and slander them in such a public manner, without an iota of accountability! Should anyone call you out on your practices, you point a finger at them and cry, “See! This is exactly what I’m talking about.” There is no room for any disagreement. Whereas in SGM churches, the leadership welcomes observations regularly. You claim violation of scripture by your previous leaders in a manner that is a gross misapplication of scriptures in and of itself. (Repay evil with evil, THAT works great) Of course there is going to be violations of scriptures and misuse of Bible doctrine in leadership, whats the Duh factor there? We are sinners! Wait, hold on… Someone SINNED against you?! Whoa. Why are you shocked? I’m shocked at your shock. People sin and mess up all the time. And in God’s perfect timing He gently corrects those He loves. You take from God’s Glory by arrogantly positioning yourself to take the burden of announcing to the world the faults and sins of others, and the drawing up of their personal road map to holiness. We’re all very grateful for your concern of the souls of the people that may, or may not have offended you. But I assure you, God has it all under control, thank you very much.
Were you all expecting leadership to be perfect and without fault? Instead of trusting God’s sovereignty in these matters you’ve chosen to gripe about it amongst yourselves. So you got burned by a pastor or church. This gives you right to generalize ALL of SGM pastors and ALL churches to be similar? That’s the astonishing part. Even secular wisdom would scoff at the child-like generalization. (I had a bad drink at Starbucks, therefore, every drink at every Starbucks is bad because they all have the same standards) Have you been to all the churches in SGM? Have you personally talked with CJ? Have you attended SGM leadership conferences and gotten a chance to interact personally with a wide range of pastors in this movement? I have. For 18 years. I do know what I’m talking about.
I know for a fact that the Pastors in SGM churches routinely ask men of character for their input on a wide range of subjects including: humility, teaching diet, forms of leadership, direction of the church etc… I’ve sat in those meetings. I’ve heard the heart for the local church expressed in the words of many, many SGM pastors.
You are still hurt over something that happened while SGM was PDI?! Years of bitterness? Yeesh.
I’m so sorry for whatever your experience. I really am. No one every said you HAD to be in a SGM church. It’s not the only movement. But how about instead of trying to derail and divide a movement that you disagree with, you simply find another place to grow in? Wouldn’t this be a better use of your time? Then you wouldn’t be slandering the Bride of Christ… I think this would be the safest.
You say, “So far of the maybe 3 dozen –active– SGMers I have yet to see one who can actually stand on scripture on a single point that has been questioned.”
What point being questioned would that be? Indulge me.
air your offenses against SGM and slander them in such a public manner
Slander requires the accusations be false. Do you have any evidence at all that what DB is saying is false? Several neutral witnesses have investigated and confirmed and even SGM itself doesn’t deny most of the details.
Should anyone call you out on your practices, you point a finger at them and cry, “See! This is exactly what I’m talking about.” There is no room for any disagreement.
No. The problem with SGM is heresy and cultic abusive practices. The problem with SGM supporters are loose accusations based on no evidence or logic. Entirely different problems. The one doesn’t prove the other though they are both obnoxious.
Whereas in SGM churches, the leadership welcomes observations regularly.
What evidence do you have that SGM leadership welcomes comments. My experience is the opposite and I would assert you statement is categorically false. I’ve dealt with church leaders from many denominations on issues of spiritual abuse. They generally are very receptive to these types of reports because they want to make sure that issues of misconduct are addressed. SGM itself so far has even refused to engage their critics.
Moreover SGM has a structure designed to discourage communication.
You claim violation of scripture by your previous leaders in a manner that is a gross misapplication of scriptures in and of itself.
Misapplication to you means what? An application of scripture consistent with the majority of Christian writing on the topic, major doctrines of the reformers and enshrined in major speeches involving literally hundreds of church officials for the last 500 years strikes me as an appropriate application of scripture. Again what evidence do you have for your assertion?
So you got burned by a pastor or church. This gives you right to generalize ALL of SGM pastors and ALL churches to be similar?
The institution stands behind the pastor’s decision. They have not revoked or corrected it even after being made aware of it. Further they types of problems she has had have been documented at over 15 churches. Further people like Harris have worked hard to design church covenants at member churches so that these sorts of abuses can occur more readily. So yes that does make it an institutional problem.
But how about instead of trying to derail and divide a movement that you disagree with, you simply find another place to grow in? Wouldn’t this be a better use of your time?
No, not really. The movement is dangerous and harmful and making information about it is dangerous and harmful available is likely to make is less dangerous and less harmful to others. At this point hundreds have been steered away from getting involved in SGM by the bravery of woman like DB telling their story.
Vaughn / V. Bauer / whoever –
You seem like such a pleasant person, easy to talk with, eager to have an observation pointed out.
Are any of these “men of character” from outside of SGM? Is there even such a thing?
Does local church = ANY local church, or only the local SGM church? Are you routinely working alongside Anytown Assembly of God or Mainstreet Baptist? Were any “men of character” from these churches there to provide input, or were only SGM approved PC graduates allowed to provide this loving help?
We’ve heard it before…I reckon the answer truly is “get over it”.
How is this a response? Telling someone that they don’t HAVE to got to an SGM church? Do you even give a flip that there are tons of people that have been hurt by your beloved “movement”? Why do you spend so much time defending, and zero time trying to see the hurt that has been caused? I believe you folks have a script that spells this stuff out – we’ve heard it all before…
I sense your heart in your comments. I can’t imagine why anyone would think poorly of this “movement”…