by John Immel
“Run, run as fast as you can! You can’t catch me! I’m the Gingerbread Man!” Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there were two bloggers taking on abuses in twenty-first century American Christianity. Rumpelstiltskin was clever, adorably blunt and talked about Metaphysics and Epistemology. The Gingerbread Man was sweet and cuddly, serving milk and cookies to his readers while grumbling about blogging for the greater good. Rumpelstiltskin talked about Ethical and Political theory. The Gingerbread Man gave people a safe place to tell their stories of being under the thumb of giants up the SGM beanstalk chanting, “Fee-fi-fo-fum! We smell the blood of an Arminian.” Rumpelstiltskin combated the roots of the Giants’ power and the absurdity of reform. The Gingerbread Man railed against the “unbiblical” nature of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ polity.
For many days Rumpelstiltskin’s blog was listed on the Gingerbread Man’s blog. And then one day, it was not. The Gingerbread Man did not say why, and Rumpelstiltskin did not ask. Since he can spin his own straw into gold, it did not matter. Many days passed and the blogs continued, until one day the Gingerbread Man was asked.
Hi Gingerbread Man, If Rumpelstiltskin is your friend, then why did you take SpiritualTyranny.com out of your blogroll list?
And the Gingerbread Man answered:
Berlin, There was a time that I think Rumpelstiltskin was taking a strong doctrinal stance that I disagree with. When I asked for a clarification and asked a simple question “who owns man?” he would not give me an answer. I don’t know if Rumpelstiltskin believes that man owns himself, or is owned by God. Simple question/simple answer.
It’s not Rumpelstiltskin’s fault that his IQ is at least 20 points higher than mine, nor it his fault that I’m uneducated. I was feeling that he was leading to a conclusion that man owns himself, which is an unbiblical belief. Again, this is not an accusation, because I don’t know what he believes. He can clear this up if he likes, or he can continue to talk over my head.
Having said all of that, I have a lot of friends who I disagree with. I honestly like Rumpelstiltskin a lot.
I’m so glad you asked on this public forum 
Rumpelstiltskin having heard some variation of this underlying objection for many years sat on a tuffet with little Miss Muffet. He did not like curds and whey, so he talked while she ate. “Why are the clever the villains? Those brothers really were Grimm when they made me the antagonist. They don’t even know me, and I have to justify myself when it was that stupid farmer who lied to the king?”
“Did I lie?” asked Rumpelstiltskin, as Miss Muffet took another bite. “No. Did I put my daughter in a bad spot with the king? No. And that simpleton the King who had to threaten to get the girl to do what he wanted. Isn’t that just like all men in “authority” bullying and threatening? And as an authority, shouldn’t he have known the truth from a lie? Well, that just goes to show that just because you have the zeal and concern to rule doesn’t mean you’re worth goose dropping, golden or not.”
Miss Muffet nodded.
“And that girl,” continued Rumpelstiltskin, “is the one who spread the tradition handed down from her father. She could have told the truth. But no, she perpetuated the lie to save her own skin. And she was the monster that was willing to sell her child for a cushy spot in the castle. What mother does tha—
Rumpelstiltskin paused, “Uh, Miss Muffet, I don’t mean to frighten you, but uh. You have a guest that has sat down beside your—”
Miss Muffet’s eyes went round.
269 comments
4 pings
John Immel
February 20, 2012 at 10:18 pm John Immel(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Argo… you asked some great questions about altruism and the implication of utter human “selflessness” … I just posted a new article that evaluates the heart of that moral philosophy.
Thanks Jacob for sparking the post. You asked the catalyst question a few weeks ago.
FWIW
February 20, 2012 at 10:35 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Satan used seduction in the Garden, just as he uses seduction to manipulate and coerce the victims (members) into SGM. On the outside, it looks good, and is very enticing. Wonderful worship with talented artists, and silver tongued sermons by smooth talking charismatic pulpit people. And there is SOOOOO much love! Who can resist?
Only after you eat of this delicious forbidden tree does the death begin. You become ashamed of your nakedness after they rape you. They make you pay 10% of your income for the displeasure of being abused by them. You must submit to this abuse because it is God ordained and you are getting “better than you deserve”. You are just “Filthy Rotten Sinners in the Hands of an Angry Leadership.”
FWIW
February 21, 2012 at 10:47 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I have wondered often about this tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Isn’t that what the famous Sunday morning sermon is mostly focused on: good and evil? Tithing is good and not tithing is evil. Going to church is good and not going to church is evil. Obeying your pastors is good and not obeying them is evil.
So the sermon centers on the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. The pulpit people want you to know how evil you are if you disobey or if you disagree with them. ” The pastor becomes your judge. Everyone goes to him for counseling, so he knows everyone’s dirty laundry. He has his eye on you and is watching your every move. He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you’re awake. He knows if you’ve been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake.
Rewards and punishment, blessings and curses. Tithing = blessing. Not tithing = curse. SGM has GRACE as part of the name – Sovereign GRACE Ministries, but yet they put you under THEIR laws and keep in in bondage. It is really their sovereign law ministry. But they would never dare rename their organization with their true identity.
The GOOD people get moved into leadership positions. The EVIL people get stuck in the pews and sometimes booted out the door. So the church is made up of GOOD (the clergy) and the EVIL (non clergy). Only the clergy is close to God and that is why only they get to talk on Sunday from the pulpit. You are evil and you need to be talked TO, so that you can be judged, rebuked, disciplined, punished, rejected, humiliated, and disregarded. But they will smile while doing it and then shake your hand after the service.
FWIW
April 12, 2012 at 10:13 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Jim from SGM Refuge said on Dec 30th at 12:14 PM - “I link to Brent’s blog because it’s SGM news. When I removed John’s link, ST (Spiritual Tyranny) was not specifically SGM news, but rather big thoughts for deep thinkers.”
Now Jim has links to “multiply” – Francis Chan videos, and Symboulos Ministries – a counseling service run by Bob Dixon. And these are SGM news how? But the link to this blog has yet to be restored. Perhaps there is more to Jim’s reasoning for removing the link to Spiritual Tyranny, ya think?
John Immel
April 14, 2012 at 11:00 am John Immel(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
LOL
Things that make you go hummmm.
CLJ
May 17, 2012 at 1:03 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
What Do You Do If You Like Some of Someone’s Doctrines But Not Others?
Hello All:
I’m not sure this is the best place for this question but it’s the only post in the doctrine category so I’m going with it.
There’s much discussion on this site about the dangers of doctrines, with good reason. However, doctrines are often complex and evolve over time. For example, I dislike the idea of Total Depravity but am aligned with the idea of irresistible Grace and Calvin’s contention (I’m reading the Institutes of the Christian Religion) that people can perceive the glory of God no matter how dumb they appear to be. I also think that Calvin provided a good Christian rebuttal to the Platonic world-view. I’m glad I’m not living in Calvin’s Geneva yet find the people in most traditional Reformed Churches today very sane and open to sharing new ideas.
Thus the essence of Calvinism per se isn’t my thing, yet I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater (I wish a better cliche would come to mind) by saying that all doctrines stemming from Calvinism are inherently bad and/or haven’t evolved in people’s minds to being more aligned with God’s love.
What do others think?
Comments Are Threaded So You Can Respond Directly to My Comment
You should be able to reply to my comment directly by hitting the reply button on the far right of the page. If that doesn’t work, feel free to respond the regular way.
I’ll probably sit this comment out intellectually, yet would love to hear what others think about having mixed feelings about doctrines.
Thanks!
FWIW
May 17, 2012 at 5:14 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLC,
I believe the Bible teaches irresistible grace for all mankind. Unlimited love, unlimited atonement, and unlimited salvation. God can never be limited in any way. The elect are but the firstfruits of God’s redemptive plan.
Romans 5:18 - “Therefore, as one trespassled to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.”
2 Cor 5:19 “…God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting men’s sins against them.”
1 Timothy 4:10 “…God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” (especially those who believe – not only those who believe)
Bridget
May 17, 2012 at 5:37 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW –
This is your personal doctrine then?
FWIW
May 17, 2012 at 5:40 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Hi Bridget,
Yes, it is my personal doctrine based on my studies and research of the Scriptures. I believe it is God’s doctrine as well.
CLJ
May 17, 2012 at 6:08 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Interesting thought, FWIW. Where does that leave you regarding Calvin, as his take on irresistible grace was a little different? He thought it only applied to folks who were pre-selected by God, which seems to leave out most of humanity.
Does Calvinism have any redeeming qualities or is Calvin’s set of premises so unappealing that Christians should abandon them and move on?
Not to throw you a hard-call or anything?
While I’m at it, let me know throw in a plug for one of my
Favorite Great Courses: Argumentation: The Study of Effective Reasoning.
It’s a great overview of rhetoric for novice and experienced debaters. Sorry about the weird font and sizing issue.
John will get a commission if you order through that link.
FWIW
May 17, 2012 at 6:36 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLC,
I think the Calvinists (which I use to be) stopped at the doctrine of election and missed the rest of the Gospel. As per 1 Timothy 4:10 that I quoted above, God is the Savior of all men especially believers. Here is how I see that. I do believe that I was chosen to believe. However, Phil 4:10-11 and Romans 14:11 say that every knee will bow and every tongue will (freely and willingly) confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. It is not some forced confession as some try to argue. That would not glorify the Father as Phil 2:11 clarifies. Also, Revelation 5:13 shows everyone on the Earth, under the Earth, and in Heaven worshiping and glorifying God.
There is no sin in the resurrection. Romans 6:7 states “He who has died has been freed from sin.” 1 Cor 15:42-44 says that the body is raised a spiritual and incorruptible body – no sin. Romans 8:21 says the creation itself will be set free from it’s bondage to corruption. The death and resurrection of Christ has global implications. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth where righteousness dwells. No more sin, and no more evil. God will restore all mankind and the entire creation to a sin free state. The lion will lay down with the lamb.
FWIW
May 17, 2012 at 6:47 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
correction – CLJ not CLC
Sorry about that.
CLJ
May 17, 2012 at 7:11 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
That’s okay.
Bridget
May 17, 2012 at 6:57 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ -
It just kept saying “error write a comment”?? There was a long one in the comment box. I had used the reply to this comment button.
I just lost a long responss to you
CLJ
May 17, 2012 at 7:09 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Hey Bridget,
I don’t know what to tell as that’s very frustrating, and the error messages are unpredictable. I got a few “error no comment messages” before the threading plug-in so they may be part of WP, unfortunately.
All I can suggest is the low tech approach I use of copying and pasting long messages into Microsoft Word periodically, or at least hitting the CTLC-C sequence to copy what I’ve already done to date. I follow this process when writing long e-mails, too.
Usually re-writing is faster so you already thought through what you wanted to say, but I feel your pain.
Sorry.
Argo
May 17, 2012 at 11:43 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Can someone please explain to me how the doctrine of election works and still allows for any meaningful human existence; that is, how does the doctrine of election not render man’s entire relationship with God pointless? I hold that this would also be true concerning FWIW’s doctrine of ALL got to heaven. And if the relationship with the creator is pointless, then by definition existence is pointless. What am I missing?
How is one who is elect actually saved? What are they saved from? And how do they appreciate what they’ve been saved from if the answer, logically, is nothing? From my point of view a rescue is is not a rescue if what you are being rescued from is nothing.
That’s my problem with Calvinism. Taken to its logical conclusion (Total Depravity means that election MUST be true, and therefore, salvation isn’t really salvation, and whatever it appears to be for the elect is really just Jesus standing on ceremony; pomp and circumstance signifying the INEVITABLE, which means it’s all for show) you have set the stage for the utter futility of man’s whole life on this world. And if life means nothing, what has the despot to do to justify his atrocities? The answer is very little.
To base a theology on the idea that man has no capacity to recognize any GOOD, to choose it, and to freely embrace a relationship with God BEFORE he is saved leads to an understanding about human life that can only ever lead to tyranny and abuse. That’s my other problem with Calvinism.
I don’t see how there can BE any baby in this bath water. The baby itself is utterly irrelevant.
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 12:09 am Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
My questions are not rhetorical. I have not made up my mind completely on this issue of election. However, my question is stated strongly; I have seen the bodies left behind by those espousing Calvinist doctrine, so yes, my hackles are up.
So, again, I defy anyone to explain to me how the doctrine of election gives any relevant meaning to life here on earth. If ultimately any choice you make does not result in a change in your eternal outcome, how exactly does this not make your existence now pointless? What have you learned that can help or hurt you? What are your wants, desires, and time really for? Why do you reach out and love? Why do you sit and sulk? Why do you do anything? Why shouldn’t you have never been born?
What is more blissful than ignorant blackness; a complete void, where no suffering nor love nor responsibility nor any experience have tainted or hindered the ecstasy of true NOTHINGNESS? You will SAY you thank God for your salvation, but you really don’t know why. You will say you love heaven, and you desire to go there, but you have no real perspective, so your love and appreciation is an illusion. You are an empty vessel occupying a heaven that you were compelled to be in against your will (as though you really had any will at all) because you never owned your mind or your thoughts; but your thoughts in the matter are just God’s thoughts, so it is not you enjoying heaving, it is just God enjoying heaven through you…and thus, heaven becomes utterly redundant. And this being the case, you can’t even tell the difference between heaven or hell; you just THINK you get it; but you don’t. You have never owned your mind, and therefore, you don’t know anything at all. So heaven or hell makes no difference, and neither of them is better (or worse for that matter) than that hole of blank blissful nothing you had before you were born. And neither of them is DESERVED more that that hole of blank, blissful nothingness.
I submit all of this is true unless you really, actually can consciously CHOOSE.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 1:10 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I totally agree, Argo! He loves all, He died for all, He calls all. Faith, Hope and Love are gifts from the Holy Spirit, but being gifts, they can be refused. I believe that God in His sovereignty, made man in His image, as He said He did. I do not believe it is out of context or extrapolation to recognize that part of that image is free will. We know that God has free will, because He changed His mind once concerning Ninevah, Phineas stood in the gap for Israel, He extended Hezekiah’s life, etc. We are not robots.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 1:17 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Also, Paul in the beginning of Romans, incriminates humanity as a whole, stating that we even recognize God through His creation, but those who refuse to acknowledge and obey Him are held accountable and reap consequences. If we go to hell, I don’t think we won’t know that we deserve to be there and why. Human understanding and choice have a lot to do with it.
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 8:46 am Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Hi 2+2,
Your posts reminded me of one other thing. The other thing I don’t get. How can God be totally responsible for someone going to Heaven and yet, man going to hell is his own fault?
I mean, I get that there is going to be some theological paradox when we talk about God. Who wants to serve a God that the human mind can fully explain; that will not happen, and it’s as silly a notion as rejecting the existence of God, like the atheists do, simply because He happens to not consistently adhere to our notions of logic. But, when talking of Salvation and Damnation, there has GOT, for crying out loud, to be a better explanation than: “Well…it’s a mystery.”
And this is not a hard question. I shouldn’t have to read the complete works of Voltaire and Calvin, as dictated to Aristotle and Robert E. Lee, with illustrations by Harriet Tubman and Joe the Plumber, in order to have this question explained in a way that the average dude can get: Can humans reason cause and effect, good outcome from bad, and act accordingly in ways that are objectively real, or can they not?
When we turn to the lower half of the third floor of the Library of Congress to make our minds up concerning simple questions of what is real and what isn’t, I feel that we are pursuing “vain philosophies”. If you are culpable for rejecting God, then you MUST be culpable for accepting Him. And this is not “saving faith”, it’s simply a matter of the reality of our existence.
Again, what am I missing?
Certain Hope
May 18, 2012 at 8:50 am Certain Hope(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ, Wow CLJ- how ironic your favorite Great Courses is Argumentation- the Art of Effective Reasoning- I purchased that, even started watching it with a couple of friend a couple of years back. Then schedules got snarled up and we never got back to it. And forgot I had it!!!
Thanks for the reminder. Just trying the reply thing here so hope I’m doing it right. On another tech note- any way to also show the year of previous posts by John? For example, when I select one of the scrolling posts a the top of the home page, and then “read more”, I’m seeing the month and day/ not year. And could there be just a special post thread just for tech stuff? Thanks.
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 2:14 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, Certain Hope. I’m a Great Courses junkie. I try to watch one lecture a day which means I’ll be finished with my existing courses by 2034. The only one, out of about 20, that was over my head, was the Chaos Theory series.
Yes, I’ll add the archives link back in so you can see John’s posts by years. That sidebar is getting crowded but I agree that seeing posts by year is a good idea.
It looks like one of your replies worked but the other didn’t. This is a learning process. I wish the Great Courses had a Word Press course.
Let me put in a shameless plug in that John does get a few pennies if you order any more courses through this link.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 9:11 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Argo asked: “How can God be totally responsible for someone going to Heaven and yet, man going to hell is his own fault?”
BINGO!!!!
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 9:16 am Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
By the way, I’m not saying that anyone is telling me that I have to read all of this or that to understand; I wasn’t clear. These are things that I find MYSELF assuming in my mind. So, basically the “Why should I have to read…” question I answered above was an answer to myself. That I just spoke out loud…er, or wrote…out loud? No, that’s not right. Maybe I’ll go lay down.
Anyway…my point is: go to John’s Amazon site. Buy books!
Certain Hope
May 18, 2012 at 9:29 am Certain Hope(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Oops- so sorry all- please read this post not previous. Accidentally submitted before I sent.
2 +2 Yes!! And Argo ” If you are culpable for rejecting God, then you MUST be culpable for accepting Him” – “Choose this day whom you will serve” “as for me and my house we will serve the Lord”, and “the Bride has made herself ready” etc.
Just a note here- my apologies here for a hasty post – must get out the door this morning so my writing probably not so good. Thanks for your ‘grace’ (smile).
I remember years ago singing a worship song (maybe even in PDI) with the line “perfect justice,perfect mercy side by side”. Oh how I wish that concept of the nature of God – perfect justice perfect mercy-could be talked more among professing Christians. The conversation gets as far as Christ’s free grace. ‘We’ talk of “cheap grace” (with a heavy dose of laying on of must do’s on one another, in an effort to control license to sin, at the same time declaring Christ’s mercy as a free gift.
Yet every human has this inward cry for “JUSTICE” ! I’m not commenting here on the fact that many a cry for justice is outright devilish (‘Woe to them to call evil good and good evil’). I am rather talking about the image bearers’ universally innate sense that there should be such a thing! And in the same way we bear the innate sense that there is or should be such a thing as mercy (again- this often warped to devilish mutations, but an awareness of what SHOULD be nonetheless). The question of immeasurable tension for humankind is this seeming conflict. The backbone, and foundation any message of ‘good news’ could possibly be brought. As Christians we say perfect and justice are fully met in the being of God himself. But what does that mean for us? The whole election / free will debate is a stumbling block to many.
What keeps nudging at me is why so little discsussion or material (that I’m aware of) is out there on the theology of the judgement of rewards. Wouldn’t this potentially offer some logical reconciliation of the ideas of free grace (wholly dependent on God- I don’t know if in the next 5 minutes I’ll be even breathing ie- I’m mortal) and at the same time, while my name may be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, I will also stand before my loving Lord and receive either great reward (or next to none) for what I’ve sewn in this life. Isn’t that at the very least an outworking of justice? By the way John- this goes back to a quote I mentioned some posts back- “pray as if it all depended on God; pray as if it all depended on you”.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 10:30 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Let’s look at this “choice” issue. The Muslims choose Allah, Mohammed, and the Koran because that is what were raised to believe. The Catholics choose the Pope and praying to Mary, because that is what they were told was the truth. Then we have Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintos, Bahai, Mormons, JW’s, Scientologists, and 1000′s of other beliefs, sects, cults, fringe groups, etc.
There are some very smart people in most, if not all of these groups. Most of these groups believe they are following God to the best of the knowledge. So what happened to their choice? How did these people get so diversified when searching for the truth? They can’t all be right! Who came up with all of this BS and why are people so damned gullible to follow crap like Scientology and pay huge sums of money to stay in that science fiction?
I do not have the answer. If someone else does, then please explain.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 10:46 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks for the posts! Yes, we have to be involved in our salvation, not just our condemnation. That doesn’t change God’s righteous sovereignty or unconditional election at all, but the use of the words sovereignty and election by strictly Reformed folks confines man’s role to that of a brute beast, a puppet, a robot, so totally depraved that we would not even be able to recognize mercy or justice, much less desire it for ourselves or others. Yes, salvation is impossible for us without God’s amazing love, sovereignty, election and work to offer propitiation through Christ and His call of each of us, but also impossible for us if we refuse His forgiveness, unmerited favor and offer of Life. God is a gentleman, and I believe He disdains to force anyone’s hand. I’m glad mercy is greater than judgment, though!
Argo, I love what you said about reading all of the (man written) books with their illustrations, no less, in order to understand God and His words. Horse puckey!
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 10:54 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Not too many Muslims are part of the elect. Not too many Hindus or Buddhists. If God is truly merciful, and His mercy endures forever, then there is only one answer to this dilemma.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 10:55 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW, I don’t think we like to face our choices logically, most of the time. Our hearts get the upper hand and we choose and remain in the BS and science fiction, because that’s what our friends and family and culture are doing. It’s painful and risky to buck the system, it’s just that if we’re not willing to think and act for ourselves, seek God objectively/hear His voice and respond, we’ll be part of the BS and science fiction.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 11:07 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
So then what is the answer? Is it really all up to us in the end? We have to recognize all of the brainwashing, get deprogrammed, and then choose the correct God and the correct doctrines about God. Does God’s mercy truly endure forever? Or are people doomed to their gullibility and stupidity?
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 11:12 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW, you said “there is only one answer to this dilemma”. So, what is your answer.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 11:23 am FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I think you already know my answer: God’s mercy endures forever. God is love and love does not take into account a wrong suffered. God does not repay evil with evil, but he overcomes evil with good. The Last Adam trumps and replaces the first Adam for all mankind. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth where righteousness dwells. That is HIS choice.
That does not make us robots. Taking away our sin in the resurrection (1 Cor 15:42-44) makes us all sinless. No more sin means no more deception and no more rejection of God. In the new creation there is only righteousness. The entire creation will be set free from it’s bondage to corruption (Romans 8:21).
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 11:14 am Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
2+2,
Yeah, I see how confusing the whole thing is. We’ve complicated our theology to the point where instead of accepting that there are going to be some logical paradoxes involved when finite beings attempt to relate to an infinite and almighty One…that is, some things we will just have to accept, I think the resurgence of Calvinism, and in particular the concept of Pervasive Depravity and Election herded people into the default understanding that the basic foundations of their daily, functional faith are paradoxical…which I think creates a very toxic version of Christianity; one which warps both the doer and the hearer. And, not only that, but it excels at turning people completely off of our faith because it asks people to act in ways not in accordance with their thinking. That is, their thinking shouldn’t affect their behavior; and vice versa. The logical paradoxes that the Calvinist must operate in almost constantly and consciously comes across not as great piety, humility and devotion to a higher calling and mind. It comes across as nonsense. People will suspend disbelief for the latest Avengers movie, but not for their metaphysical belief system. Why do we think “all people who DO GOOD go to heaven” gets so much traction with the unbelievers in our society? Because it makes sense! People UNDERSTAND GOOD! They can grasp it! All those “depraved” souls somehow seem to grasp the difference between good and evil, get it right practically ALL the time, understand that they can act upon it, and understand that by doing so can expect rewards with out a shred of prostrated guilt. And they don’t need to read one thing by John Edwards or Martin Luther to get it. Now, they may not get the “avenue” right, meaning, they may deny that Christ is necessary, but certainly they don’t struggle with the concept of good and evil, right and wrong, and the reaping of what they sow both in this life and the next. In this way, I submit that some unbelievers have a healthier spiritual life than many Calvinists…simply because they can understand that good and evil is a pragmatic understanding as much as it is a spiritual one, and they trust that they understand it properly. Which, again, they almost always do because they are not insane.
I remember CJ preaching a sermon on legalism. His concern was that people were somehow confusing grace with the act of doing certain things such as homeschooling, quiet times, church/homegroup attendance blah, blah with works-based salvation. It was a great sermon at first! So freeing. But the conclusion was this: You can’t STOP doing those things, and understanding their great worth…they are not optional. But you mustn’t think they contribute anything to your salvation in the end [paraphrase]. So, the functional outcome of this sermon was…NOTHING. The real point is that, these things are NOT as important as we think, and that no, you don’t HAVE to do them. You don’t HAVE to read the bible every day. You don’t HAVE to go to care group. You don’t HAVE to agree that women shouldn’t work, but make babies. So, he was asking us to change our thinking, with no commensurate change in behavior. In my opinion, this sermon added to the guilt and confusion, as opposed to relieving it, because you were asking people to consciously, constantly function in their daily lives in an utter logical paradox. People cannot do that for very long and stay sane. It’s the same problem with election. Your behavior must not change…you must continue to evangelize as though people have a choice, but your thinking must change to accommodate the rational inconsistency….that is, ultimately evangelizing has NOTHING to do with who goes to heaven.
I think your point about small verses large rewards in heave plays similarly. I, too, think there is biblical precedence, and I hope people talk more about this. It makes sense that there are rewards for doing…again, not a hard concept to understand. Not works-based salvation, but an understanding that you are rewarded for your obedience. Why is it wrong to think this way? Certainly it is an axiom for our daily lives at work, home, church, etc., etc., why do we shudder to think that God gives greater gifts to His children who pursue His commands diligently?
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 11:15 am Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Oh, that last massive comment was directed at Certain Hope. Sorry about the confusion.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 11:54 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, Argo, and no, I didn’t mention rewards, but I agree with your take on them, from scriptures. Works of gold versus works of stubble, which will be burned up. Doesn’t mean we will be burned up as believers, as they are works after salvation, but He does say that we will be purified as believers, yet as though through fire. I think gold would be; doing justice, loving mercy and kindness and sharing that with others, walking humbly with God, sharing the gospel, the really meaningful things. Stubble to me, might include arguing over non essential doctrines, slaving over non essential “ministries” like church bulletin production, keeping up church grounds, working in the kitchen for potlucks, etc., etc. That is not to say that all of those things cannot be a function of agape/Christian love, but they can easily sidetrack us from what is really most true and important, and can be involved with fearing and pleasing man.
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 2:02 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW,
Why do you assume stupidity, brainwashing, and gullibility in the Muslims, Buddhists, etc., etc.? Why do you assume that people are merely a product of their environment? What about those that have managed to “buck the system” and have converted to Christianity? If they can do it, what is the excuse for the others? What is the excuse period? You may hear me criticize SGM, but I will never claim that I was brainwashed or that my choices were not my own.
You assume people are gullible and stupid. I assume they are not; I assume they are a product of their rational choices. I’m not saying that no one is ignorant or brainwashed, but that is not my default assumption about humans. That it is yours is utterly consistent with your belief that God MUST save everyone. They are stupid and gullible and brainwashed, so there is no hope for them of actually getting to know the true God and choosing him. For you, those that do somehow manage to overcome the blinding pervasive stupidity thrust upon them utterly against their wills are are merely following through on God’s gracious extension of forgiveness through Christ; those that do not overcome for whatever reason–somehow NEVER giving them credit for their own minds–are God’s “elect”. You are the apple that is not far from the Calvinist tree.
The reason there is a heaven and a hell is because God does not assume people are the way you describe them. On the contrary, common grace and man’s ability to reason and being made in his image have given them every tool they need to make their choice.
So, yes, it is all up to us in a sense, which is why we can accept heaven without guilt or self-abasement, and hell as our righteous recompense. God’s grace provides many avenues and opportunities to see Jesus and accept Him, but in the end it is our choice.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 5:11 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Hi Argo,
Let me clarify. I do not think people in other religions are stupid. My gullibility comment was intended mainly for the Scientologists. The rest are brainwashed. I am brainwashed and you are brainwashed. The vast majority of people grow up in their respective religions. They are taught it from early childhood. They are not given a choice by their parents. And when the entire countries of Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan believe in Islam, and that all other religions are of Satan, then the choice to convert becomes a little more complicated. They did not choose to be raised and brainwashed into Islam.
Speaking of Satan, the prince of this world, does he have any part in in this? If not, then why did he get punished along with Adam and Eve? If Satan had not lied to them, would they still have sinned? We do not know.
Why are there so many religions? Why are there so many Christian denominations? The choice is a clear as mud, which is really no choice at all. No one chooses to be in deception and follow a false religion or false doctrine. We think their religion is false, and they think ours is. I think your doctrine is heresy and you think my doctrine is heresy. And if anyone is wrong, they are going pay hell for it! So much for love, mercy, grace etc. That is only for the guys who get it right. The rest will BURN because they made the wrong decision and picked the wrong religion and the wrong god. Too freaking bad.
Why have some Christians converted to other religions? They had the truth and then gave it up for a counterfeit and a lie. Why? So they could go to Hell when they die? Because they were never really one of the elect? Double predestination? What a pathetic load of crap. No wonder there are so many atheists. Who would want to worship such a demented and pathetic excuse for a god. The Calvinist god is a warped demented eternal terrorist who is worse than Hitler.
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 2:08 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
If when I die I discover that Muslims were right, I like to think (and I DO now think) that I will not blame anyone else. Certainly NOT my pastors or society! Bleech.
No, I am a man who possesses a mind that understands consequence of my choices. I CHOSE not to become a Muslim, not to read the Koran, not to assume I could be wrong and they could be right. I have not explored Buddhism, I have not traveled to the Great Wall and looked at the possibility of Taoism in all its wisdom, God has not made these choices, the Government hasn’t, my mommy and daddy didn’t, I’m not merely a product of my environment. I have consciously chosen to disregard other religions in favor of my dear Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. If I’m wrong, I will blame only one: me. Now, I’m a pretty average Joe. What the heck is the difference between me and the average Muslim? Or Buddhist? If I accept responsibility, why can’t they? Why are they gullible or ignorant if I’m not?
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 8:52 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Argo, so you are saying that our eternity hinges on whether or not we choose the right religion? If I was born in Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan, chances are 99% that I would be a Muslim. 99% “choose” Islam? That is not a coincidence. Since when would choosing a religion be dictated in most part, by where someone was born? Who’s fault is that they were born and raised in Islam? I sure hope that God grades on a curve here!
I am not talking about blaming anyone. I am talking about reasons that God will be merciful to us. No one has even a 1% knowledge of God. We know in part, and that part is very small. We Christians cannot even agree on wine vs grape juice for the Lord’s Supper. We disagree about what is acceptable behavior like R rated movies, drinking beer, smoking a cigar, dating vs courtship, church attendance, tithing, and many other trivial issues. We Christians can’t even agree on the smallest of issues. We “choose” to believe all kinds of nonsense like slain in the Spirit, holy laughter, or anointed prayer cloths.
God is either crying or laughing His ass off. (Excuse me – hind parts). To think that God left eternity up to us ridiculous minded humans is absurd. He sent JESUS to be our new Representative Head in the new covenant to represent all mankind as the Last Adam. Romans 5:18 “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.”
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 2:33 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
@Argo and Others:
Thanks for all the great commentary. I’m just wondering how many folks have read or are now reading (I’m in that category) Calvin’s The Institutes of the Christian Religion or a major work directly written by another theologian?
I only ask because the following three things are occurring to me in reading Calvin:
1) He explains himself much better than others explain him. Love him or hate him, the man was a great writer with a great mind.
2) His so-called 5-point “TULIP” acronym, that others made up after his death to simply his ideas, does disservice to his work because his premises can’t be explained in isolation/bullet points well. One premise logically leads to the other in clear yet interesting ways in The Institutes of the Christian Religion.
3) He’s rebutting a Platonic worldview that was popular in his time but not in ours. Hence his arguments seem strange to modern ears, like mine, that aren’t intimately familiar with Plato’s schtick.
If you’re interested in reading Calvin’s stuff or other things referenced on his blog, let me introduce you to John’s Amazon store. I don’t want to overdo it, yet ordering products through John’s links makes it easier for him to create great content and costs ya’ll nothing.
Thanks! Carry on!
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 4:32 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Argo 227, those last 2 sentences state it so well. At this point in time, I choose not to read Calvin’s Institutes. People in charge of finding counterfeiters can spot even a very good fake, because they know the real bill like the back of their hand. I really believe my having read different translations of the Bible several times before having the Reformed perspective pounded into my brain, was one of the main tools that helped free me from its destruction. Even having been a long term believer with some Bible understanding, it sounded so good, true, and comforting for the first year.
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 4:53 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Just reading the Bible for yourself makes sense to me, 2+2. However, I am curious as to whether you like the work of any other theologian, contemporary or classic.
I’m reading a biography of and one book by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German Lutheran theologian that tried to save the Church from pro-Nazi clergymen and ended up being executed for trying to assassinate Hitler. He died a renowned theologian at the age of 39 so he wasn’t a dumb guy.
I love his idea of “cheap grace.” Namely, that arguments about faith vs. works are a little silly because if there’s no evidence that you have faith, based on how you live your life, any doctrinal stance you claim to adhere to is held cheaply.
Bonhoeffer says it better than that but hopefully you get my point.
Thanks for the reply!
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 6:37 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ,
Yes, I’ve read here and there over the years, not much of theologians per se, but apologists and other Christian authors and preachers. Came from a family which idolized smarts and education, both of which can be helpful, but not ever to the extent they are held by many. I can appreciate what you’ve shared from Bonhoeffer, am a little familiar with him, and found that I didn’t agree with a couple of things, but it was years ago, and now I can’t remember what they were. My problem with the people I know now who are critical of greasy grace/cheap grace, is that I wonder if they have an agenda for bringing it up. I came out of a very legalistic church long ago as a new believer, and find it a subjective, relative term. I’m just thankful that there is grace, and want to receive it and extend it. If you were to look at my life now, by most church going Christian American standards, I would be considered a changed life with many good works in Christ to show for it, and as a temperate, kind, patient person. Their judgments or mine don’t really matter though. To those who judged me a non believer when I left that particular denomination so long ago, I was just as much a Christian when they couldn’t have seen the “fruit” they were looking for. The term cheap grace reminds me of the question, “so where do you go to church?”, a loaded phrase.
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 7:16 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Asking Questions for the Right Reasons/Evidence of True Grace in Someone’s Life
Bridget, I just lost a post to a browser meltdown but my primitive cut and paste method worked!
Evidence of Christ’s Love/True Grace in Someone’s Life
Thanks, 2+2 = 4
It’s amazing how our backgrounds affect how we view terms, theologians, etc. I don’t necessarily agree with everything Bonhoeffer said either, yet still find his views fascinating and refreshing and believe his life truly reflected Grace.
The term “cheap grace” isn’t loaded for me because I hadn’t heard it till I read about Bonhoeffer less than a year ago. I can’t speak to the agendas of others but I bring it up when evaluating whether people, including myself, seem aligned with Christ’s love as opposed to being obsessed with a church, doctrine, denomination, pastor, etc.
The Seminary President and the Volunteers at the Homeless Shelter
For example, the head of a major seminary is brilliant, in my view, and very doctrine-oriented. However, I don’t sense the Holy Spirit in him or see evidence of Christ’s compassion reflected in his priories or actions. For example, he never talks about volunteering at a homeless shelter or addresses the many allegations that the physical and sexual abuse of women and children is currently tolerated/swept under the proverbial carpet, in his denomination.
By contrast, two women at a church in Baltimore were shot and killed by a man who was a regular visitor to the church’s soup kitchen last week. He later killed himself. They were long-term volunteers and knew the risks of interacting with troubled people, but they did it anyway.
I see true grace in the lives of those women yet don’t sense it in the life of the relevant seminary leader even though I don’t presume to judge the hearts of any of them.
Further regarding true Grace – interestingly the seminary President tells other people how to be doctrine-oriented Christians for a living (a pretty good one), whereas these two ladies seemed more aligned with quietly doing what Jesus told Simon Peter about what it means to truly love Christ:
John 21:15-18
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter,
“Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.”emphasis mine
John 21:15-18, NIV
I Ask Myself About Grace in My Own Life
I ask myself every day now, “do my actions reflect the true grace I sense in those ladies at the homeless shelter or am I more like that seminary president?”
Thanks for the reply!
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 7:43 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, CLJ, see better where you were coming from. From the past experiences I’ve had in churches, including the ones I had in our last church (we left fairly recently) I’m a little sensitive to the phrase. You’re right, it’s good to examine ourselves, in fact, I’ve been convicted of judging others in the name of Christ over the years, from reading John’s book. Specifically, I think I’ve probably had a direct negative influence on one of our grown children, who now doesn’t want to have anything to do with church. The child and spouse are both professing believers, and now that I see my own past attitude and behavior regarding church attendance, I’m actually proud of them for giving up their church hunt and thankful that they haven’t allowed themselves to get sucked into destructive elements which are prevalent in most U.S. churches.
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 7:54 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I totally understand, 2+2=4, about terms being used in ways that don’t seem aligned with Grace and how church experiences don’t always reflect Christ’s love, unfortunately.
Bonhoeffer really does a better job explaining what I was trying to get at. I grew up in Churches where “faith vs. works” was a big debate so Bonhoeffer’s logical supposition that one is indicative of the other, spoke to me. It also changed how I looked at church leaders. If they are great preachers but aren’t out in the community feeding sheep, their idea of Grace is probably not aligned with my idea of Grace.
It sounds like you raised some very thoughtful kids. That is something to be proud of.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 8:01 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, again, CLJ, If the opportunity presents itself, I hope to apologize to the child. I’ve already spoken to the spouse about it. At least the child now knows from talking with me recently, that I’d be happy not attending church anywhere again, as a member, anyway.
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 8:10 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
My pleasure, 2+2=4. I’ll add your family to my prayers. I will also be more mindful about explaining the terms I use clearly since they can bring back painful memories for folks.
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 9:15 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ -
Glad you copied it. I need to play around with some of the features to see how they all work.
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 9:18 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ,
So I tried to link that last one to your comment but it didn’t link. On this one I just used reply. What will happen when I hit the magic button . . .
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 9:23 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Does anything work?
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 9:20 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The magic button does not work for me.
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 9:33 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Making a Video About the New Commenting Features
Hey Bridget, I’ve developed lots of strategies for backing things up because things are always falling apart in the information management field. The simplest strategies, like pasting posts into Microsoft Word, usually work best.
It’s perfectly natural to be confused about commenting because there are two reply buttons. When I get a chance, I’ll do a video or take screenshots showing how the commenting features work because they’re not intuitive.The reply button you want to use is all the way on the right as opposed to being next to the quote button.
If that’s not working for you there could be a mobile app issue as some features of WP simply don’t show up on my Smart Phone. I don’t know why that is, unfortunately.
@All
Also, I try to respond to comments for me even if it’s just to say that I can’t respond to them at present. So if I’ve missed your comment, please don’t feel slighted, and re-post it if you’d like a response.
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 9:35 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ -
(Quote) worked.
(Reply) does what? Didn’t work.
(Link to this comment) does what? Didn’t work.
“Reply” at the far right does what? Didn’t work.
The one that worked showed all the HTML programming in the comment box after I pressed it. The other buttons didn’t show anything in the comment box after I presses them.
What is (UTC-4) for?
I’m determined to conquer this
CLJ
May 18, 2012 at 9:59 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The good news is that the “reply” function did work. That’s why your post says 236.2. The UTC-4 thing is a time zone reference I can’t get rid of. I think the “link to this comment” reference is meant to be a permalink. A permalink is a link other blog users utilize to link to other blogs. It’s useless to regular folks but I can’t get rid of it easily either.
I would eliminate a couple of these features, if I could, as they work sporadically or not at all, as with the button situation. Word Press, this blog’s platform, was designed for folks with a few comments per post, not 600+ replies, so its technology for handing long strings of comments isn’t great. Blame John, too. If he wasn’t so popular we wouldn’t have this issue.
The big problem is that when I erase or add one function some other ones disappear or appear, so I hesitate to experiment anymore.
I’ll brainstorm with John about making commenting easier. For now, I plead with you to invest time re-posting that long post you lost rather than conquering this comment box situation.
Don’t forget to paste it somewhere!
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 10:17 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
This is a test
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 9:30 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW,
Been thinking about this. Something about your world view makes me very uncomfortable in my soul. It speaks to a place where serious alarm bells go off, even worse than with Calvinism.
I thought and thought, and I think my concern is this: That with regards to your world view, really its only pragmatic purpose is to deny the existence of EVIL. There is a difference between Christ died so that all may believe on Him and be saved, and Jesus’s death on the Cross renders all EVIL moot, regardless of whether not one accepts the sacrifice. It destroys the very concepts of GOOD and EVIL, and puts them both on the same plane; but because the reward, that is Heaven, is not denied, but utterly confirmed, and confirmed in the sense that it is understood as GOOD, the effect on one’s thinking is that it’s ALL good; because it all leads to the greatest GOOD: eternal life with God. And it condemns God as an evil terrorist or a Hitler for daring to suggest that EVIL and or its effects in this life are serous…even to the point of effecting someone’s eternity. The denial of hell is a very dangerous world view because of this, I believe.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 10:28 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why would God not want mankind to know about good and evil? What is wrong with knowing good? I know what is wrong with knowing evil, but why GOOD and evil? Why wasn’t it just the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil?
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 10:43 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Before Adam and Eve ate of the Tree, they did no know they were naked. No one cares about animals being naked. The animals sure don’t care. Why are we humans embarrassed to be naked? Many people have dreams about being out in public and then realizing they are naked. I have had that dream myself and I then run for nearest clothing store, hoping no one will see me before I get there. I am embarrassed and ashamed to be naked. It is humiliating. It would be even worse if it were not a dream! I would never go to a nudist colony.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 11:47 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Did I need to believe in the Adam to be infected with his sin? Did I need to trust in Adam and confess him as lord to become a sinner? So the sin of Adam spread like a virus to the entire human race – “for ALL have sinned…” Then Jesus Christ comes as the Last Adam. He brings righteousness into the world. But how do I get that righteousness? I have to believe in Him to get it, most Christians say.
We are saved by grace through faith. We are justified by faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Now the question is – who’s faith are we talking about? Our faith? Are we faithful? Do we get to boast about OUR faith? There are numerous articles and books written about the Greek expression PISTIS CHRISTOU. Does it mean faith IN Christ or the Faith OF Christ, ie His faithfulness. I have read numerous articles and debates over this. Is it in the subjective genitive or objective genitive? The great scholars cannot agree.
I believe it is the subjective genitive – the faith(fulness) OF Christ that saves us, not our faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is a gift. To each man is dealt a measure of faith. But does that faith save us, or the faithfulness of Jesus Christ? Once again – Romans 5:18 – “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.”
Bridget
May 18, 2012 at 10:19 pm Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Another test.
Argo
May 18, 2012 at 10:48 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW,
This post will fall victim to the plague of “written correspondence”. It sounds heated, I realize, but that is not my intended tone. Certainly passion, but I hope it isn’t offensive.
For you, it seems that man’s mind is defined by the vagaries and particularities of our fallen world, as opposed to allowing man’s rational mind to define man’s mind. You condemn God as a terrorist if He does not OBLIGATE Himself to ushering all into eternal bliss in heaven in spite of their rebellion, evil, their forsaking of the sacrifice of Christ in this life simply because the world happens to a hostile and imperfect place, which is no fault of God’s, incidentally. But still, you demand God take ownership of the fallen state of the world by refusing to accept the consequences of man’s own decisions…you deny man’s culpability in either GOOD or EVIL because you chalk both up to the mere circumstances of someone’s environment…circumstances which, incidentally, millions and millions of people have somehow navigated in order to accept Christ. But their testimony means nothing to you. Their struggles are meaningless; lost in the kind of absurd assumption that they were just lucky enough to have been raised Christian.
The reason for all the atrocities and dilemmas in this world is not the fault of God, lest we forget, but the result of mankind’s rebellion in the Garden. But it is not enough that God offers a sacrifice of HIIMSELF on a CROSS that all who accept it can be saved; no, you demand that God must render the sacrifice of His Son moot because it just wouldn’t be fair to condemn anyone for the rational choices they make in a fallen, difficult, imperfect world, which exists precisely because of another rational choice that man made; and MUST take ownership of as a condition of his very existence and being made in God’s image and being granted ownership of the earth and privy to the knowledge of God and the blessings of heaven.
By demanding that God make evil moot in our world, and demand that He take ownership of the sin of those who reject Him, and demand that he accept that evil is merely a result of the vagaries of a fallen world (which is consequence of man’s decision to disobey His command), you deny the sacrifice of Christ, and deny its true power to save. This cannot be a Christian perspective.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 11:13 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Argo, who has rejected Christ? The Muslims? They believe in the virgin birth, but do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. So is that misinformation, or is that rejecting Christ? How about the Mormons or the JW’s? Have they rejected Christ? Or are they simply under a false teaching about Christ?
And what does going to Hell accomplish? Does Hell have any redeeming value? What purpose does it serve to torment people without mercy for eternity? Is God really that twisted and demented? NO, He is NOT!
What about all those who never heard of Christ? What about all the aborted babies or children that die before even having the capacity to understand who Jesus is? Do they get a “Get out of Hell free card”? Praise God for abortion if that is the case! Praise God for fatal childhood diseases that keep them from growing up and potentially rejecting Christ and ending up in Hell for eternity!
Hell is Spiritual Tyranny at it’s worst!
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 10:51 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW, to me, the big draw for Eve, was the lie she believed, that if she ate of the fruit, she would become like God. And the big draw for Adam, was either the same as Eve’s and or the longing to keep the human relationship. imo.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 11:21 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
There is one thing I agree with that Reformed teaches, sort of, anyway. That’s the understanding that “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure”. Philippians. But while I recognize that, I believe their take on it is stunting, because of the total depravity issue and therefore, always keeping the person focused on Christ’s redemptive work at the Cross. But He was raised because He was sinless and had fulfilled the entire law, and to prove our justification as believers and to begin that new life in us as individuals. We each are rationally a part of our sanctification, and are meant to live victoriously moving forward in joy and peace. Jesus died for all of our sins, past, present and future, so when believers fail, we can get up again in thanks and expectation of better in the future, because of His promises, His righteousness, His working. Reformed thinking is very man centered to me, despite all of the rhetoric about it exalting Christ.
2+2=4 again
May 18, 2012 at 11:25 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW, have you ever read, The Great Divorce, by C.S. Lewis? It’s a wonderful metaphor exposing man’s thinking. I read it as a young adult before coming to faith, but it made a big impression on me.
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 11:53 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
No 2 + 2, I have not read it. What is the main point of the book?
FWIW
May 18, 2012 at 11:48 pm FWIW(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Did I need to believe in the Adam to be infected with his sin? Did I need to trust in Adam and confess him as lord to become a sinner? So the sin of Adam spread like a virus to the entire human race – “for ALL have sinned…” Then Jesus Christ comes as the Last Adam. He brings righteousness into the world. But how do I get that righteousness? I have to believe in Him to get it, most Christians say.
We are saved by grace through faith. We are justified by faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Now the question is – who’s faith are we talking about? Our faith? Are we faithful? Do we get to boast about OUR faith? There are numerous articles and books written about the Greek expression PISTIS CHRISTOU. Does it mean faith IN Christ or the Faith OF Christ, ie His faithfulness. I have read numerous articles and debates over this. Is it in the subjective genitive or objective genitive? The great scholars cannot agree.
I believe it is the subjective genitive – the faith(fulness) OF Christ that saves us, not our faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is a gift. To each man is dealt a measure of faith. But does that faith save us, or the faithfulness of Jesus Christ? Once again – Romans 5:18 – “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.”
2+2=4 again
May 19, 2012 at 1:48 am 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
FWIW, I think it’s both. Christ’s faithfulness first, then faith He offers us in Himself as a gift, which as a gift, can be refused.
The plot of Great Divorce is simple; a bus comes every Tues? or Thursday afternoon at a certain time and whoever wants to go to heaven, can get on the bus for free and go there. Everyone knows about the bus and where it’s headed. Most people find some very good reason in their minds, for not taking advantage of the offer. The reasons run the gamut of human fears, wants, presumptions, but some do decide to get on. And Lewis gives a glimpse of his idea of heaven in the process. The part that stuck with me was the myriad of excuses and reasons people gave, and why they gave them.
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