by John Immel
“Run, run as fast as you can! You can’t catch me! I’m the Gingerbread Man!” Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there were two bloggers taking on abuses in twenty-first century American Christianity. Rumpelstiltskin was clever, adorably blunt and talked about Metaphysics and Epistemology. The Gingerbread Man was sweet and cuddly, serving milk and cookies to his readers while grumbling about blogging for the greater good. Rumpelstiltskin talked about Ethical and Political theory. The Gingerbread Man gave people a safe place to tell their stories of being under the thumb of giants up the SGM beanstalk chanting, “Fee-fi-fo-fum! We smell the blood of an Arminian.” Rumpelstiltskin combated the roots of the Giants’ power and the absurdity of reform. The Gingerbread Man railed against the “unbiblical” nature of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ polity.
For many days Rumpelstiltskin’s blog was listed on the Gingerbread Man’s blog. And then one day, it was not. The Gingerbread Man did not say why, and Rumpelstiltskin did not ask. Since he can spin his own straw into gold, it did not matter. Many days passed and the blogs continued, until one day the Gingerbread Man was asked.
Hi Gingerbread Man, If Rumpelstiltskin is your friend, then why did you take SpiritualTyranny.com out of your blogroll list?
And the Gingerbread Man answered:
Berlin, There was a time that I think Rumpelstiltskin was taking a strong doctrinal stance that I disagree with. When I asked for a clarification and asked a simple question “who owns man?” he would not give me an answer. I don’t know if Rumpelstiltskin believes that man owns himself, or is owned by God. Simple question/simple answer.
It’s not Rumpelstiltskin’s fault that his IQ is at least 20 points higher than mine, nor it his fault that I’m uneducated. I was feeling that he was leading to a conclusion that man owns himself, which is an unbiblical belief. Again, this is not an accusation, because I don’t know what he believes. He can clear this up if he likes, or he can continue to talk over my head.
Having said all of that, I have a lot of friends who I disagree with. I honestly like Rumpelstiltskin a lot.
I’m so glad you asked on this public forum 
Rumpelstiltskin having heard some variation of this underlying objection for many years sat on a tuffet with little Miss Muffet. He did not like curds and whey, so he talked while she ate. “Why are the clever the villains? Those brothers really were Grimm when they made me the antagonist. They don’t even know me, and I have to justify myself when it was that stupid farmer who lied to the king?”
“Did I lie?” asked Rumpelstiltskin, as Miss Muffet took another bite. “No. Did I put my daughter in a bad spot with the king? No. And that simpleton the King who had to threaten to get the girl to do what he wanted. Isn’t that just like all men in “authority” bullying and threatening? And as an authority, shouldn’t he have known the truth from a lie? Well, that just goes to show that just because you have the zeal and concern to rule doesn’t mean you’re worth goose dropping, golden or not.”
Miss Muffet nodded.
“And that girl,” continued Rumpelstiltskin, “is the one who spread the tradition handed down from her father. She could have told the truth. But no, she perpetuated the lie to save her own skin. And she was the monster that was willing to sell her child for a cushy spot in the castle. What mother does tha—
Rumpelstiltskin paused, “Uh, Miss Muffet, I don’t mean to frighten you, but uh. You have a guest that has sat down beside your—”
Miss Muffet’s eyes went round.
326 comments
4 pings
2+2=4 again
May 20, 2012 at 2:05 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
As an example of the always present danger of church and state reuniting, this was several years ago, but did anyone read about Rev. and Mrs. Sun Yung Moon being coronated Savior and Messiah of Earth by Bush Jr.? The MSM kept very quiet about that one. This was attended by scores of U.S. leaders, dozens of famous Christian leaders, and dignitaries from around the world. March of 2004 in the Dirksen Senate building. Moon has helped many a famous Christian pastor who got themselves into trouble financially and is a multi billionaire who owns hundreds of companies in the U.S. alone. It appears that Ban Ki Moon may also be a member of the Unification Church, although he refers to himself as a non denominational Christian, as do many Moonies. Unfortunately, money talks.
Argo
May 20, 2012 at 4:49 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I have a list of “red flag” words that I look for in any church now. These words cause me pause; then tremors; then a panic attack. But now, it seems I have to add one more, after reading the post about Mark “Sex On Demand, or SOD…(hmmm?)” Driscoll.
Authority
Doctrine
Local church
Submission
Biblical manhood/womanhood
Design (such as “God has a design for how we talk, dress, eat, work)
Gospel-centered
and now…
Sodomy
Er…wow, is all I can say. Women can’t refuse sodomy. Welcome to Sound Doctrine, 2012.
CLJ
May 20, 2012 at 6:40 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Moderating Individual Comments For a Little While
@All – Thanks for the great dialogue. Comments will have to be manually approved for a while due to issues with a certain poster. Sorry for the inconvenience, and thanks for your patience.
Argo
May 20, 2012 at 7:14 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Look…I don’t mean to get crude. So, please, don’t be offended, but I don’t know any other way to say this. Okay, here it is: Ordering your wife to give you sex on-demand does not sound like love and requiring godly submission to me. It sounds like an excuse to masturbate.
Lin
May 20, 2012 at 8:34 pm Lin(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Argo, actually it was presented as if the wife really loves and cares about you she will do this. It was not presented as demanding. Driscoll is smarter than that. Always put it on the woman. Just like he did in his book when she cut her hair and he took it personally saying that it was an afront to him because it was a mommy haircut and he liked her hair. He felt she was taking away his pleasure.
This is not really about Driscoll. He is a cad and a false teacher because of all the arsenic he serves up with his “gospel”. The real question is since his stuff has been out there for so long why have all the big movers and shakers promoted him for so long? The red flags have been there for 10 years. Because of his numbers. Why has the SBC partnered with his created Acts 29 church planting group? Why have they paying to plant Mars Hill clone churches? Wonder what the little old ladies who tithe their pensions would say about it? Now they are scrambling to distance themselves from Driscoll and act like he is no big deal and the Acts 29 pastors are nothing like Driscoll. Except one small problem: Driscoll is what attracted these young guys to Acts 29 in the first place.
And I have not even mentioned Paul Petry’s site that just came out and documents his firing….with documentation using Acts 29 resources. Driscoll went from 40 voting elders in a church of about 2000 to 3 voting elders in a church of 12,000. Petry disagreed and was fired. That was the famous “sinning by questioning” sermon seen on you tube of Driscolls.
Argo
May 20, 2012 at 7:17 pm Argo(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I thought sex was done out of love for your wife; romance and giving and sharing and gentleness. Masturbation; rape, is what this is. Not rape in traditional sense, but a rape of the mind in order to satisfy animalistic primal sexual urges upon every whim, which has nothing to do with the kind of love we are commanded to show our wives. This is the definition of manhood? Conquering your wife by demanding ownership of both mind AND BODY? This is what the man-boys in the theological neo-Calvinist ivory towers have come up with to define biblical manhood? THIS?!
CLJ
May 20, 2012 at 7:21 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
John is Coming Out With a New Article Shortly!
Stayed tuned…
2+2=4 again
May 20, 2012 at 7:53 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Hi, Debbie,
That’s a partial article about it. I’ve read several other articles about it, and can dig them up for you. I’m not a computer person, so would have to list them rather than provide links. All of the articles I had seen had referenced Bush Jr. and some showed pictures of him with the Moons at the ceremony. I suppose someone could have used photoshop to falsify information, but I noticed in the above article, that almost every attendee’s name was left out. An article I had seen had listed the U.S. lawmakers and other U.S. leaders, world dignitaries and 2 or 3 dozen high profile Christian leaders, almost all of whom upon being questioned about the ceremony later, said they didn’t realize what would be occurring, and distanced themselves from the Moons. I thought Bush Jr. did some good things as President, wasn’t specifically trying to incriminate him, but pointing out that church and state can be involved more than we realize.
One of the first public statements the then new Pope, Ratzinger, made, was that he thought the new world religion should be humanism. Just trying to show that religion and politics easily mix, sadly.
CLJ
May 21, 2012 at 10:51 am CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
@2+2=4:
“Debbie” is longer allowed to post on this site. I think that people can do their own internet searches about the topic you brought up. Like most issues, it’s complex. There’s no need for you to have to defend yourself/feel badly about anything you posted.
2+2=4 again
May 21, 2012 at 12:19 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, CLJ, for letting me know, I wondered what happened to her post. I hadn’t taken offense, I know there are lots of folks out there who love the Bush family, and haven’t been shown other sides to political decisions they’ve been involved with.
Debbie and others, so that I could cross t’s and dot i’s, within the last 24 hours, I found many articles about their “coronation” simply by googling a couple of different phrases! There is a large amount of money (many millions) which has been given to the Bush family, including W., from Moon. Strange though, I’ve only been able to access a partial list of attendees now. The original one included well over one hundred, more like a couple of hundred, if I remember correctly. Because of world figures coming in from abroad for it, I don’t see how people could have been surprised at the purpose for the event.
CLJ
May 21, 2012 at 1:37 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
No worries, 2+2=4:
Figuring out political campaign contributions is tough.
Apart from other issues with “Debbie,” I objected to her tone and admonishments of you personally. Some people seem to think that civility does not apply to blogs commenting. I disagree.
2+2=4 again
May 21, 2012 at 2:09 pm 2+2=4 again(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, CLJ,
We really do need to come to this kind of communication with respect and an open mind. I know we all have our “buttons” and personal perspectives. My perspective is being refocused toward Jesus Christ and His uninterpreted words, partly because of John’s book and this blog, but it has involved challenges put out to the ways I’ve thought for many years in some areas.
CLJ
May 21, 2012 at 3:13 pm CLJ(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
No worries. I agree that we all have our hot buttons. I say things I don’t mean all the time and don’t apologize as much as I should. Conversations can spirited. It’s the personal attacks, ala “you’re nothing but a #$%$#,” that I don’t like because they set a negative tone and often lead to sutble and not-so-subtle bullying.
Lin
May 21, 2012 at 7:13 pm Lin(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
”think that Dr. Mohler’s dream was merging the radical elements of the SBC with SGM. However, it’s looking more and more like both elements will take each other down, instead, as the market for what they’re selling people is getting smaller and smaller even if they stick to their respective geographic areas. Louisville certainly isn’t big enough to feed them both.”
I agree. But also remember that Mohler with the help of the SBC leadership lead the way for a name change (even though messengers have voted twice against it in past) and they came up with a new “nickname” that people could use if they want. And boy are they marketing it. Even talking about our racist past with the secular media. I mean who coudl be against it now without looking like a racist?
I think this is where SGM is going. This is a way to save CJ AND gain churches for the new GBC. CJ will never be accepted as a bonafide pastor in the SBC because he is uneducated/. He can be a speaker, etc. But they are pulling out the stops to rehab his image on the speaking circuit. And I don’t think the SBc will turn down churches who want to come aboard the new GBC. CJ gave lots of money to SBTS just a few years back. Could be more but they are not publishing those numbers anymore. the SBC used to be real open and transparent. That has changed drastically in the last 10 years or so.
With all the twist and turns over the last 15 years, I have always seen MOhler land on his feet. He is one of the most brilliant tacticians out there. He might have overstepped his bounds this time but I doubt it.
It is all one big soap opera. And you know what? If people stop giving, it will all go away. It is that simple. They are now fighting over a smaller and smaller pie. We are planting Calvinist churches in a non Calvinist convention while trained missionaries cannot be sent out abroad for lack of money. Go figure.
Todd C
May 21, 2012 at 10:59 pm Todd C(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Why is C J Mahaney back as president of SGM?
Bridget
May 22, 2012 at 12:16 am Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The short response is “He’s the boss.” (I’m, for the time being, in an SGM church and have been for 14 years.) The long response would take you on a nine-month journey of double-speak by dozens of leaders in SGM and in the RBD world to arrive at CJ being fit to lead anything. I don’t mean this to sound snarky . . . You could read at SGM Refuge and SGM Survivors starting in July of 2011 to get the REALLY LONG story.
Bridget
May 22, 2012 at 12:20 am Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
. . . and the majority of men do nothing to change it (can’t forget this part).
Bridget
May 22, 2012 at 12:04 am Bridget(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
CLJ, I am reading bits and pieces of The Institutes. I find it difficult to read (maybe it’s just me) for several reasons.
1. He proof texts all his points. He takes from here there and everywhere in Scripture to prove his discussion point. But this IS Calvin’s “systematic theology”. I think I have a hard time with systematic theology as a means to know and understand God. (That’s NOT saying that we will actually accomplish that end in an earthly lifetime.) I have the same issue with Grudem’s Systematic Theology. Both of these books can be a source of help, or harm, depending upon how they are used. I will say that he was a brilliant man in his attempt to explain God and what HE thinks God has to say to us.
2. How understandable is a Systematic Theology, especially The Institutes, to most people? Is it helpful to read an entire book on Systematic Theology or try to categorize the essence of God and God’s ideas in this way? I’m not convinced that it is helpful. I think The Institutes might be a larger volume than the Bible. What does that say? Calvin has more to say to us than the Scriptures themselves? God didn’t try to engage us in scripture by systematizing it. Even if we rearranged the books of scripture we have in every way possible, we wouldn’t come anywhere close to a systematic theology. Only by tearing it apart verse by verse can you create “systematic” theology.
3. The presumption that Calvin seems to make is that God will be easier to understand if we systematize our thinking about him. (Unless there was some other reason for him writing The Institutes that I’m not aware of. Why else would you write a book of this volume? This is the “thinking the best” scenario on my part
) Is this how God wants us to understand Him? Is this how Jesus presented Himself to his disciples? Is this how God presented himself to the patriarchs? When I read these volumes of doctrines they seem devoid of life and just another list of rules about “how” to think about God. This being the case for me, I don’t view anyones doctrines as the end all of anything. I view them in light of scripture, my personal relationship with God, and asking the Holy Spirit to empower me to have eyes to see Truth. Scripture in context is easier to read and understand than a systematic theology.
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