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Paul Balluff-The Final Lesson
I actually haven’t deviated from my stated intent to file three posts following specific themes. It just turns out I get to make one of the same points using a different object lesson. This should be the last lesson from this source.
*********
Be arrogant if you must. Be ignorant if you must. But don’t be arrogant and ignorant. This is a John Immel original aphorism. I accept royalties.
In some Christian circles, the accusation of arrogance is worse than the charge of misogyny in a National Organization of Women Conference. This stems from the fact that in these circles, Pride and Arrogance tend to be synonymous, and Pride becomes a catch-all spiritual failing: tossed within an utterly erroneous notion that humility is manifest in self-deprecation, self-doubt, and self-destruction. Whatever… This all ends up being “Method and Manner” fraud.
Arrogance is nothing more than the assumption of superiority and anyone who has worked to achieve any level of expertise or mastery, by definition, has earned that assumption. This does not preclude weakness, or inabilities, or failures. Indeed, someone who sets out to be a true master of any discipline works relentlessly to be aware of their weakness so they can remedy and overcome. The road to mastery is nothing more than an iterative process of increasing self-awareness.
Self-AWARENESS is an encompassing state: a macro vantage point over the sum of self; the ability to place all of one’s abilities, skills, talents, expertise, greatness, weaknesses, ignorance, lacks, intemperance, and ignobility in context to reality.
By way of contrast, self-ABSORPTION is a prohibitive state: a micro vantage point with no sense of the sum of self–a willful ignorance of self in context to reality.
My aphorism is designed to identify this state of self-absorption. Being arrogant and ignorant is the worst of all worlds. If one does not know what they don’t know because they are unwilling to ask (or more insidious, willing to HEAR), they can never, ever, find an effective solution to any life problem. This kind of SELF is narrow in perception, and indulgent in action.
We all know people like this. To some degree, we were all like this: think teenager. Think adolescence. Most parents know to bite their tongue and wait out the stupidity, praying to God that eventually self-awareness will spring eternal. If not, maybe God will let us eat our young.
We tolerate such self-absorption out of teenagers, sort of.
- Their willful ignorance: the belief that they know everything while making no effort to know anything.
- Their belligerent evasion: purposely hiding behind hostility and indignation when confronted with error.
- Their argumentative legalism: playing the strict literalist game when linguistic games suit, and flat ignoring the violation of basic principles and common communication intent.
- Their lip service to forgiveness: the demand for moral absolution while demonstrating no willingness to change conduct or attitude.
- Their conduct blank check: the fundamental expectation that others must pay for their moods, intemperance, laziness, inability, and lifestyle.
- Their relational presumption: the belief that they can act however they want because Mom and Dad are obligated to suck up their intemperance.
- Their moral equivalency: “Well, yes, I’m sorry but you did THIS. So you are no better than me.”
- Their petulant emotionalism: the endless manipulation of feelings-criticisms are catastrophic hailstorms of excrement and compliments are disproportionate sonnets of love, beauty, and butterflies.
We grant grace to all of these self-absorbed failings because we understand it to be a developmental stage–a finite period of time where young psyches work to get that macro vantage point on self. We wait for the emerging self-awareness because we believe the developmental cost will be far exceeded by the relational value a healthy, productive, valuable adult can contribute. In this environment with this expected outcome, love, and forgiveness, and grace, and mercy spring from a deep, deep well.
It is from this expected outcome, this deep, deep well, that God approaches us.
Inasmuch as we see people seeking the path to self-awareness, we are willing to embrace them on the path. But our energy shrinks to a dull ebb when we realize that arrogance and ignorance are combining to create the perfect storm of self-absorption and the inevitable self-indulgent outcomes.
Injustice grows exponentially when the self-absorbed, self-indulgent soul can demand moral absolution in the name of Christianity. When “Forgive Me” is uttered in belligerent command and moral absolution is the required response, mercy and grace have lost their meaning. When any person can write a moral blank check with the expectation that someone else MUST cash it, values, and justice, and proportion, and boundaries have been reduced to ash.
This is exactly how Christian Forgiveness is currently being taught: that the magic words of “forgive me” are sufficient to the cause. And if that doesn’t get the immediate moral absolution, the next bit of sanctimony is the moral relativism of “We are all just dirty rotten sinners.” The overt proposition is “You are not any better than me, so someday you will need someone to wink and nod at your bad stuff too.”
Any unwillingness, any hesitancy to immediately declare all actions pardoned, any intemperate outburst exonerated, and all intimacy restored is met with sanctimony: “How un-Christian,” or “How unloving,” or “How hardhearted.” The result: people are browbeaten into accepting circumstance and relationships that are vicious, unhealthy and destructive.
As a brief aside, it is this doctrinal insanity that keeps women in marriages where their husbands are self-absorbed, violent scum who repeatedly commit adultery: who alternately terrorize their families or abandon them with impunity. He stands in a pastor’s office and speaks the magic words, “forgive me.” With this enchantment, the woman is placed in an impossible position.
No matter how many adjectives we try to apply to this woman’s plight–loving, long-suffering, merciful, gracious et al–to make ourselves feel better in the face of profound injustice, she is further victimized by the self-absorbed, self-indulgent, useless piece of humanity, and then incarcerated by doctrines that are dehumanizing, unjust, and destructive.
It is true that God granted divorce because of the “hardness of people’s hearts,” but we have misunderstood who’s hardheartedness is the culprit. Divorce for “biblical” reasons is an act of self-preservation and self-defense against the violence of hardhearted action. (Make no mistake, adultery is personal violence of the most brutal soul-wrenching kind.) If the hardheartedness manifests in the person seeking divorce because of adultery, abuse, abandonment, why grant divorce at all?
Did I go to far afield with my last two paragraphs? Maybe, and then again, maybe not. The underlying theme of this post is what relational boundaries are people required to keep in the face of self-absorbed, self-indulgent, arrogant, AND ignorant conduct?
It is to this I will now turn my attention.
For those of you just tuning in…I’m not going to detail the sum of Paul Balluff and his wife, Me Love You long Time, interaction. You can find the bulk of their comments on Who’s Your Daddy, Reform or Not to Reform (in the last hundred comments), and Paul Balluff Lessons.
On May 25th, Paul Balluff found a pingback on the post Arena of Ideas. Here is what he said.
Paul B on May 25th, 2009 7:00 pm
Hey - I thought this using of other’s names was a ONE time thing, John?
Paul Balluff Lessons | spiritualtyranny.com on May 8th, 2009 3:28 pm
[...] adding their 38 cents worth. They don’t agree. They say so. No biggie. This is the Arena of Ideas where it is more rough-and-tumble than other living rooms. Someone might hand me my ass in my [...]
How, pray tell do you have the gall to add my name to such a vile statement and call yourself a Christian. Oh, my mistake, maybe you aren’t.
Leave the profanity to your members and keep my name off these–if you want to toss out a pithy statement, please refrain from attaching my name to it.
For those of you who don’t know, a “pingback” is a blogging thingy that lets blog owners know when someone has referenced a post. Any time a hyperlink is posted, it “pings back” to the original. I do a lot of internal linking because so many of my thoughts are interconnected. Hence, the pingback from the post Paul Balluff Lessons to the post Arena of Ideas.
Anyway, onward…I of course was mystified by Paul’s reaction and comments because everything in the pingback was in the original post and presumably Paul had already read said post with said profane reference. A post with his name on it????
Ah, yes…silly me presuming that Paul actually read the post. He has repeatedly said that he makes no effort to follow the details of the conversation. Here is what he said when called to account by Juli.
Paul on May 26th, 2009 9:52 am
To Juli- I do not live on this or the other sites dedicated to those with a gripe to pick over life in or out of SGM. Therefore, I missed the Arena of Ideas and in a quick scan, thought that the above saying was attributed to me. I am man enough to say that I jumped to a conclusion that it was something that I had supposedly said - I was wrong. I hope you are woman enough to see how impolite you were in your response. (”you won’t get your ass kicked…”)
On a side note to all on these blogs- Had a good three-hour talk with Jim (SGMRefuge) last night. We left on excellent terms. As I hope can be said here.
John - same apology to you here -my bad
In Christ,
Paul
There is soooooo much here.
Your bad? Your bad what? Your relational incompetence? Your intellectual ineptitude? Your blogging presumption? Your utter lack of self-awareness? Your admitted willful ignorance? Your horrific doctrinal deficiency? Your nonexistent critical thinking skills? Your endless intemperance? Your ridiculous attempt at apology? Your feeble attempts at manipulation? Your pathetic sexist appeal?
Which bad thing are we talking about, Paul? The list is growing and growing and growing.
Frankly, I’ve seen teenagers with more self-awareness, and if not self -awareness, enough embarrassment at their own ill conduct that speaks to some self-consciousness.
Let’s see…am I saved? Hmm…well, if I’m not, maybe that explains a lot. But here is the thing. I’m not sure I see how that works out better for you?
If I am not saved, does that mean I get a moral and ethical pass? Does it increase YOUR obligation to overlook my conduct? So, as an unbeliever, does that mean I get to shoot you in the head and it’s just all good: leave your wife to forgive and forget? My conduct can’t be helped after all: I’m just an unsaved sinner? Right? It is by the Grace of God that such things don’t happen more often? Right?
Paul, you won’t follow this to save your life. You have shown no ability to follow a progression of thought, so I am confident this will sail right over your head. So, I am going to say it for those pastors sent to keep up with subversive material.
You guys suck at teaching your own body of doctrine. How is it that you can have a true SGM believer that can utter such inane doctrinal words? Come ON guys…my salvation demonstrated in using the word ASS? And not even jackass or stupid-ass or ridicule-ass.
How is it you have been so incompetent at teaching the doctrine of election? How is it you still have pew-sitters who CANNOT, for one second, remain consistent in their intellectual grasp of “Sound Doctrine”? How can comments, like Paul’s, be a criticism? If I am not saved, if I am not a Christian, there is not ONE thing I can do about it. So, my reprobate conduct is part and parcel of God’s Sovereign will.
He can parrot the SGM doctrine of pervasive depravity pretty good. He has absorbed the corresponding moral relativism that you all use to absolve yourselves of any and all relational failures…so how is it your pew-sitters fail to get the REST of the doctrine? From the way you advertise your doctrinal purity and monolithic presentation, this should be unacceptable. These pew-sitters should be getting demerits or something because they are NOT paying attention.
Anyway…
See, here is the insanity embedded in this whole dynamic. When it is something I’ve done, you get to rail about the quality of my salvation. Paul, when it is your manifest relational incompetence, you get to put on a Roseanne Roseannadanna act: “Oops…Never mind.”
Hommie John don’t play that game.
I can tolerate a lot. I have been more than generous with this platform. I have let you rail at liberty against the people and the content of this blog. I’ve let you and your wife accuse me of all manner of nefarious motives and actions. I have even let you justify yourself in an argument with Jim and Carol at www.sgmrefuge.com. That would be like me going to Dale O’Shields’ church and co-opting his mic to justify myself to SGM.
In all of this I have been (mostly) magnanimous.
I gave you ample time to explain the content of your lesson. I realize now you have none.
I even had flashes of letting you hang around for the comedic entertainment: as Jim is fond of saying: “That is almost funny.”
But what I cannot and will not tolerate is you presuming to give etiquette lessons to Juli. The irony in your thinking to define “impolite” is rich. And the further irony in your determination to make self-awareness a measure of your “man hood” makes me howl with laughter.
But comedic relief withstanding, that is the last straw. That is the single greatest manifestation of arrogance and ignorance that I can imagine.
You are not welcome here, Paul. There is no reprieve. I have no interest in further interaction. You are tedious, and have shown yourself willfully ignorant, arrogant, and thus irrelevant. Go co-op another blog to justify yourself if you must. But you have posted your last here.
The price of admission to this blog is both cheap and expensive. The price is self-awareness. You have no coin of the realm.
****
To all, If a comment sneaks through, ignore it till I get it deleted.
Comments
186 Responses to “Paul Balluff-The Final Lesson”
Got something to say?
umm….I told his wife you used nukes John..she didn’t relay that information apparently.
<watching the mushroom cloud rising up in the background>
this time it isn’t a hoax: Paul is “dead.”
(that was my obscure Beatles reference just for you Dan!)
Thanks Juli.
Man, this “Arena of Ideas” place is pretty bruising.
I suppose it is far too easy to just sit back and pick and choose what you want to respond to. I figure if Paul really wanted to sit and really examine what he thinks is true and think it through, he might come back with different answers. Then again, maybe not.
Thinking through a progression of ideas is more challenging, especially if you question one node or level’s “truth.” Or even question a specific part of the equation ie., A=B, then C must be true (or much later down the progression such as if M=N, then O must be true).
I’ve come to the realization it is better (and much harder) to try and listen all the way through a series of ideas before making my own judgement.
The Arena of Ideas is not for the meek.
Wow, that was certainly a whopper of a final lesson. I see it like this: You have a hugely muscled gladiator whose experience in the arena is massive. He is looking for someone to cross swords with, as a bit of practice. He comes across this inexperienced man, who hasn’t used his muscles in a lonnnnnnng time. The gladiator tries a little sparring, but the man has so little strength as to make the whole sword fight quite a bore for the gladiator.
This is similar to participating in the arena of ideas. As Dan said, it is not for the meek. It also isn’t for those who choose not to listen or learn, but just like the sounds of their own voices. We have to come to the arena prepared to learn, to rethink strongly held ideas that are unsupportable in God’s thinking.
In this one life I’ve been given, I wish to seek the mind of Christ, in order that I might live for God and not myself. I seek more of Him and less of me. To do this, I should be willing to face my own ignorance as I listen to others who speak wisely.
If you aren’t willing to learn, the arena of ideas is not the place for you. I have to say, I’ve reached my “$4.oo limit” with a certain poster. Good move, John.
well, Paul walked into the arena thinking he was that massive gladiator….in reality, he didn’t even have a weapon in hand. Not even one of those little plastic swords you stick fruit thru and put in cocktails.
Juli, there you go, cracking me up again!
I wasn’t just referring to the subject of this latest thread. There have been so many drive by’s on the different blogs who just can’t hold up their end of the debate, because they aren’t thinking freely for themselves. They spout off only what they’ve heard or been taught. So, they resort to insults. Frankly, the time spent trying to have a discussion with them is just a waste. I don’t mean to sound like I know it all. It’s just that it makes me binge out on chocolate bird seed. Bleh…
you know what I respect in another person? Their ability, freedom, and willingness to think. Period.
I don’t have to agree with them, or they with me. I’m a big girl, I can have an in depth conversation with someone with completely different views, and still walk away respecting them as an individual and feel no need to convince them differently.
I don’t have to agree with them, but I respect their right to their own beliefs: good, bad, ugly, and even insane.
But the minute their agenda comes out, and they start trying to change ME or MY ideas? Nuh, uh. That reveals much in a person in my mind. Their inability to respect me as a person by their insistence to change me reveals, as John said about Paul, complete self-absorption.
Ironically, I see more of this agenda-pushing in Christian circles than anywhere else. It’s so annoying.
Either someone is trying to convince me to be a KJV-only, a Calvinist, an Arminian, a cessasionist, a paedo-baptism believer, a tongue-speaker, a pew jumper, a literalist Bible thumper, trying to get me to wear a head covering, dress modestly, whatever….it’s all about the same assumptions: they are right and I am wrong and they feel the need and right to change me.
Ugh. No wonder so many people despise Christians because most of them have agendas.
Their jacked up teachings run along the lines of: God loves you just as you are and you there’s nothing you can do to earn salvation…now change, start going to church, praying all the time, and reading your Bible every single day! (better make it KJV only!)
Here is the very dirty little secret. We are all in the arena of ideas ALL the time. It is ALWAYS a brutal place. We are always combating someone with a better sword, better skill, better preparation. Most people are unarmed and unarmored.
There are four types of people. The Unintentional Feeble Minded Soul. The Unfocused Passive Minded Pseudo Thinker. The Disenfranchised Cynical Intellectual. The Intellectual Visionary.
The Unintentional Feeble Minded Soul is mostly harmless of simple folk. Those people who do not have the requisite awareness to be intentional about their existence in the arena of ideas. As a result they will tend to be irrelevant in the tides of human thought. They will be part of the tide, but they will never shape the tide.
The Unfocused Passive Minded Pseudo thinker are those people who are aware of their ideas… sort of… but they choose a hazy, foggy, indistinct intellectual existence. They don’t like focus because they don’t really want the responsibility of their thoughts. Their intellectual arguments almost always revolve around an appeal to authority. There arguments are stock variations of: “Well, umpty ump master thinker said this … and I agree with them.”
These people tend to be very smart but intellectually passive; unwilling to do the work associated with the ideas they say they hold near and dear. They tend to be offended at a challenge of their ideas. They usually decide they have done enough work to know what they know… and further discussion threatens their entitlement to stagnation. These people unfortunately are profoundly easy to influence with the right social and emotional levers. Because of their implicit passivity and intellectual obstinacy, these people tend to be at the forefront of most tyrannical social, political, and religious movements.
The Disenfranchised Cynical Intellectual are those people who want to focus, want desperately to grasp the cause and effect of their ideas, and the outworking of those ideas in human existence. But intellectual pursuits have let them down.
They populate the freshmen and sophomore class in college, bright eyed and bushy tailed, ready to take on the great ideas the world has to offer. By the time they are Juniors they have been made so cynical by the disjointed presentation of ideas, and have absorbed so much Calvin/Kantian metaphysics and epistemology that they with draw into their own worlds.
Over their lifetime they are beat about the head and shoulders with things like: “You think too much”. Or, “that is what you get for thinking.” Or, “you have a spirit of prideful intellectualism,” or a dozen and one other overt criticism of their inclination to UNDERSTAND the world.
For most people it is merely a failure of education. It has never been explained to them why ideas connect… why ideas create the cause and effect of their actions, attitudes, emotions, and outcomes.
This group of people has been sold into slavery by the intellectual leaders of a culture. The intellectual leaders have failed to do their job, or worse the intellectual leaders succumb to the social pressures created by wrong, evil, wicked and destructive ideas. The leaders quit resisting and showing people HOW to resist. Leaving this group leaderless and unequipped to retreat to worlds of its own creation to survive.
This group of people is the sleeping giant of every culture. This group of people is the driving force of true Cultural Revolution, (not of the Communist variety) true liberty, and freedom and blessing and prosperity. Because this group of people effectively armed and armored are the sentinels, the warriors, that carry effective ideas into the farthest reaches human life defending those who can not defend themselves and destroying the indolence of the unfocused stagnated soul.
It is to this group and this group alone that I care to speak.
Hi Juli,
I have a question. What about the people who want to change, badly, but recognize themselves in the type of person you describe above… could humiliation be a stumbling block to someone who would desire to make that change but recognizes the total inferiority of their ability to disseminate ideas the way that you can?
Or is humiliation a part of the journey? Before anyone comes to that place of taking full responsiblity for their thinking and seeks to understand it and change it, were they not just the same as the person who tries to change your thinking that you describe above? who neglects to respect your boundaries? And being that I see so much of that still in myself, am I unwelcome to try to discuss and embrace what I so badly want to understand but know yet lies beyond my reach?
Maybe I speak from a place of complete self-absorption or maybe I speak for others who would long to join in but can’t quite determine if they’re good enough or have changed enough in their thinking to even make it through the doors.
The thoughts and ideas–the arena–here can be very intimidating. People who fail are brought to task, and royally. What about the ones who wish to be a part of this new way of thinking, but stumble and screw up completely along the way… what can they do to undo or to gain the right to once again pursue the freedom of thought that they desire without feeling like utter failures? or is the failure part and parcel of self-awareness which would lend itself to furthering the development of the correct way of viewing themselves and this world? Maybe that’s it.
So it’s painful and that’s tough, but if you want to take that step, then better beware… yes?
I only want to understand and to change the thinking that needs changing. But I deserve–in my heart I know this–the same words that were shared here with Paul. And that makes it a terribly frightening thing to even show my “face” here.
To hell with anonymity,
Teresa
This is a very good summation John. I want to cringe a little (okay, maybe alot) when I read about the Disenfranchised Cynical Intellectual (DCI person).
The DCI person has to take alot of crap to exist in this world. He or she tends to be a loner in my experience (which is my experience BTW). What is so wrong with wanting to UNDERSTAND why A must equal B?
God gave us minds to think with. He talks about “reasoning” with Him. The NT tells us to “think on these things”, to let our minds be changed to the way God thinks. If we are indeed true believers, our ultimate goal should be to get God’s thoughts on all matters. Jesus did nothing apart from His Father. Neither should we.
This requires waiting on God, reading His word with the Spirit’s insight. It is okay to listen to teachers preach the word, but we should know enough of scripture to test the spirit of that teaching. As John points out, we cannot be passive in this.
Bree,
Ignorance is acceptable, as John said. As is arrogance. It is the combination of the two that makes it insufferable and impossible. And also prevents the person from ever really “getting it”.
You are not that combination as a person, I hope you know that.
I think you and I have different perspectives on what constitutes humiliation and what purpose, if any, it would/should serve. But to answer your question, no, humiliation is not always part of the journey. Each journey is different, based on the beliefs and ideas of individuals. It is those very ideas and beliefs that in turn determine the journey and the specific application of truth in their minds.
Our individual thinking tool boxes, as I like to call it, vary from person to person. (disclaimer: I like that term but didn’t coin it, there is actually a homeschool curriculum called that but it is an easy illustration that I use with my son to explain why it is important to use our minds and how we do it)
Everyone’s tool box varies based on what they are doing in life and who they are as an individual. Some are more proficient with some tools more than others, some have tools they rarely use, some use all their tools, some have more tools than others, some have broken tools, some have no tools…do you see the picture here?
The tools represent the ability to think critically, to use logic, to make informed choices, to be able to articulate personal convictions and opinions, to be able to use reason, the ability to hear disagreements and contrast them, to use dialectic methods…etc.
If someone is in the Arena and has a plastic kid’s tool box, I certainly don’t make fun of them simply because they have plastic tools. But imagine this same person walking in with that type of tool box, expecting to fix a car, for example. They don’t know there are better tools, they don’t know their plastic tools could never do that job, etc - they are ignorant.
Now suppose someone walks up to them and tries to point this out by saying: “Hey, did you know they make tools out of steel and iron and metal now? They are superior tools for the job you want to accomplish.”
If that person refuses to listen, because they believe their tools are sufficient for the task and will not take the time to investigate what metal tools might do, or even if they exist, this would be the arrogance.
So the combination of the two, you see how it doesn’t work…it’s one thing to have a shoddy set of tools, and not know it. Or to be arrogant thinking you have the best already - when you clearly don’t. But how can a person ever better themselves if they are ignorant and arrogant? How do you interact with such a person?
You don’t.
Dan, I know how you feel…I was a DCI person. Love that term by the way, John! Totally accurate in my estimation and experience.
And by the way, the people that accuse DCIs of thinking too much are the other two types of people who don’t have the desire or ability to really think. Esp the pseudo passives who are offended at your willingness to ask questions they are unwilling to ask.
When I realized I don’t have to apologize for the way I think, or that I even do think, a huge burden lifted. Knowing that it is ok to be who I am? - liberation at it’s fullest.
And it opened the way to becoming an intellectual visionary..which is rather cool.
I am working on becoming an IV. I can think of no better place to work out stuff than the Arena of Ideas. Sure you can get battered and bruised — but it’s all about the journey, right?
It’s the journey that makes life so fascinating!
Not trying to be too Zen here… but it is about the journey. Since truth is endless, it is never a destination…. it is not a place to arrive, but a method of living.
And to my way of thinking it is the most interesting way to live.
Isn’t that what sanctification is? We go from truth to truth, from thinking one way to thinking another. When we change our thinking, we change our behavior. It all comes down to, if we are believers, having the mind of Christ. Unfortunately, things we learned from controlling churches has caused leaven to grow within us. So God purges that leaven by the changing of our minds and hearts.
Bree, when you say absolute truth, most people immediately think: destination.
there is a great distinction that needs to be made; Truth is revealed gradually, it is a journey, a process…and how this plays out is different for each person because we are individuals with the ability to choose and respond to truth as we see fit. We can exchange it for a lie, or we can embrace it, believe it, and act on it.
The variety of application or methodology does not imply variance in the essence of what truth is. By this understanding, truth IS absolute because the nature, effectiveness and power of truth is not one bit negated simply because it is applied differently in individual situations.
I guess what I am trying to say is that when you look for things to be black and white in application, absolute in application, you will end up a legalist.
Who defines truth? How does one apprehend it? Who can interpret it? If you believe the church does, then that is significant. If you believe the majorty does, then that is significant. If you believe the individual does, then that is significant.
But whatever answer we come to in this, if we figure out what we believe, what we know, what we don’t know…that is the starting point. Asking questions of ourselves is how we check our own intellectual pulse and then take action from there.
Very well said Juli. I think probably half the challenge is admitting to ourselves that we don’t know it all. Knowing what we don’t know and finding it okay. Just never stop pursuing the process or the journey.
Also, it is okay to agree to disagree.
I’m not too sure about the “four types of people”thing.
What about the “man, I took waaay too much acid in High School Fuzzy Thinker”
Not that I know anyone like that.
What were we talking about?
Jim… hahaha… hahaha… hahaha….
uh…not to be snarky or anything …. but was that a requirment at SGM… I seem to remember that being a theme amongst the leadership.
opps…was that over the line? was that…over the line?
>snicker<
And Jim…
Uh… comments were closed before I could ad my .02 pesos … But Letters?
Heheheh….
Signed letters??
Hheheh hehhe hehehe
Non anonymous letters…
HHAHAHAHA….
Hahahah…
Sorry… I can’t stop laughing to get to my serious comment. Maybe it is good that comments closed after all.
You and Carol are working hard over at the Refuge and THAT is what those “reformed big dogs” came up with?
Hhahahaha…. Hahahhah…
Maybe there are a LOT of people in that HSFT group Jim.
Hahahaah hahhhhahah….hahahahaha…hahahahaha
ehem
Apologies upfront… but in the context of the current post, SGM and Calvinism just so happened to shape my understanding of these 4 Kinds of People.
So…Unintentional Feeble Minded Souls - this group certainly comprises the majority of people who I’ve had contact with. In fact, it wasn’t until I went to the Calvinistic SGM church that I met large groups of the Unfocused Passive Pseudo Thinkers…
because I had really only ever been around UFMS’s (I feel like I’m speaking “Myers-Briggs” right now, ahem..) when I arrived at the SGM church I naively thought: People who think like ME! Yeah!
They had the appearance of using their minds, and thinking..at last no one would accuse me of “thinking too much!” or so I thought…they were always discussing doctrines, talking about history, quoting dead guys…all the stuff I loved to do. hehe
They seemed to think and have ideas, at least in comparison to the first group who would never shape the tide and didn’t think much at all, that much was clear. I was so tired of sticking out like a sore thumb making everyone else “feel stupid.” (their words, not mine)
But, the longer I stayed, the more I realized that something was still off. Especially when the outworkings of the thoughts were leading to horrific consequences.
It was then I began tracing the thoughts back, questioned the thoughts by asking people “why do you believe this?”…and lo and behold - I realized the thoughts and ideas all stemmed from the same primary sources.
Basically I realized that not only were the people in the SGM church who I assumed were thinkers unable to have an original thought on their own but had simply adopted the thoughts of others …but the adopted ideas (or doctrines in some cases) of others were adopted from others..and it kept going back and back..I was thinking to myself, “How long had it been since someone had stopped this insanity and said - you know what? These ideas suck!”
This fascinated and confused me. I could not understand how a group of people who had seemed so bright could be so dumb as to blindly accept what others said, not once seeing the fruit and asking questions as to why and how.
I see the first group as the ignorant group. But the second group - the passive pseudo thinkers? They are the irritating group. Because they fall into the ignorant-arrogant combination far too often.
While I do believe in the sayings “standing on the shoulders of giants” and “there is nothing new under the sun”…I do think each generation has the opportunity to learn from the past and intelligently contribute to the world today, not simply cut and paste portions they like into the present.
Only an intellectual visonary seems able to learn from the past, stand on the shoulders of giants, and contribute something distinct, creative, and meaningful to the present age. Using their own gifts, abilities, experiences, knowledge, intelligence…they actually leave a legacy.
Jim and John , Thanks for the laugh!
Juli, I like those words - cut and paste. I use to cut and paste ideas when I was in SGM. I blame that on myself, as well as the teachers who didn’t let me grow up in the faith. Ignorance comes with youth. I guess arrogance does, as well!
I hope you guys know I was speaking about myself.
Jim…while you may have been an HSFT at one point, you are a Intellectual Visionary now…and that is a powerful testimony that anyone can achieve anything they set their mind to by faith and God’s grace - even a fuzzy mind
a former pastor of mine (not SGM) used to talk about “Cafeteria Style Christianity” - in a negative sense. It was as if we were not encouraged to pick and choose what we believed, or examine the choices at all. I never thought about it at the time, but the assumption was that we were somehow unfit to be able to choose from the salad bar of ideas. And because we were unfit, we were not free to choose for ourselves.
Yet these same people use the cut and paste method freely. The difference is, someone else put together the food you are eating and the combination of dishes (doctrines) They serve it up to you, because ketchup ALWAYS go with french fries, right? Who would ever want to mix ketchup, with say, eggs?
So they criticize and negate the ability of individuals to think and choose for themselves - not allowing them to decide that they are craving ketchup and eggs and to want to try it for themselves. It’s the hive mind.
Nobody stops to think that ketchup and french fries might just be bad for you. Or that after years of eating it, it makes you fat. Just because it is the norm doesn’t mean it is the best. So why the big fuss to not try something new? To think outside the box? Especially when you see the effects that eating certain foods (doctrines) lead to death, not life.
If we’re honest, we are either eating doctrines prepared for us and labeled “sound”, or we are creating, thinking, mixing things up…and finding some amazing truths in the process.
Juli-just saw your 1:31-thank you, that was kind.
Ask John sometime (offline please
).
I think 5 minutes into our first conversation I said, ‘bro, you just went way over my head” or something like that. I’m always asking people, “could you dumb that down for me a little bit?”.
I’m just glad I recognize Carole every morning and can find my way home.
God is good!
Jim - ahahaha that was funny. I’m sure Carole is glad you recognize her too!
Juli… I am glad! :-) But just in case he wanders off, I tuck a piece of paper in his pocket with his name, address and phone number, so that whoever finds him can bring him back… ;-)
Just a bit of a “safety measure”…
<crickets chirping>
it always weirds me out when things get so quiet on your blog John…like the quiet before the storm. And we never know the direction the storm will come from - the next post itself or the next commenter..haha
Yeah Juli, it has gone awfully quiet, here. Even my kitty has stopped growling…
Canary,
ahaha! I thought you had long since starved that cat..isn’t it dead yet?
oh, yeah - they have nine lives supposedly. I think legalistic kitties have a hundred lives…but isn’t he down to about two by now? You keep him in line after all..
I’ve been to the Alpha quadrant….anything new these days?
Dan, I might need my Trekkie sister to translate that one…but I’m guessing you’ve basically been reaally far away? haha
good to see you back in the, uh,..zeta quadrant? ahha…ok, so I don’t know my Sci Fi lingo. but you get the idea.
No, we are in the beta quadrant…I thought this was common knowledge?
Dan, that’s funny, because I almost said Beta, but figured that was too close to Alpha..so went with Zeta instead…
of course silly me, I was thinking proximity in terms of the Greek alphabet, not deep space….<chuckling>
Juli,
Dan can correct me if I’m wrong: The Alpha quadrant was where Captain Janeway and her ship got sent to by some powerful being. She finally made it back home after a seven year season on TV…:)
Ok… Canary… that last comment shows a frightening amount of knowledge about the most ridiculous installments of the Star Trek franchise.
For reasons not quite definable that is truly disturbing.
Now that is impressive Canary. Yes, the Alpha quadrant was where the series Voyager with Captain Janeway took place.
John, not being able to go to your left, that is disturbing…
cute dan… but they will inscribe on my head stone…John “Was RIGHT all the time” Immel.
LOL
My headstone will say: “Gone to the Final Frontier”
Or “He got beamed up”
they can throw me in a Hefty bag and send me down the Rio Grande River for all I care….heeheeh oh wait, that is probably breaking some sort of law, even in Texas….oh well, being a posthumous rebel would be kinda fun.
as for all the Star Trek knowledge that Spiritual Tyranny comments apparently have…. I feel left out…..well, only sort of.
Hey John, I quite liked Captain Janeway. She had fire in her soul. Plus, she beat the rubber pants off the borg - no assimilation for her crew!
Dan, I’d like my tombstone to say, “Gone to the Holodeck, and I won’t be back”. Hee-hee.
Juli, I own all seven seasons of Voyager. You can borrow them and catch up. I also own all the Stargate seasons and movies, but that’s another time and space thing…
Nice Canary.
Were you a fan of Battlestar Galactica?
And people, these were not very “Christian” shows. Shame. Only Juli is without sin.
Yes Juli, only you can submit yourself for sainthood…ho-hum.
No Dan, I didn’t get into BG. I’ve been a Star Trek fan since the days of Bill Shatner - my dad and I would watch together. Actually, the series showed humanism at its best. Unfortunately, humankind will never become so selfless as to make that kind of world, at least not without Jesus. It makes great fiction, though!
I’ve asked God to take me through the Universe after I die, before I get to heaven. I want to see Jupiter close up, and go to the very edge of space to see what’s out there. It’s always been a fascination of mine. Wonder if He will “comply”?
Augustine is rolling over in his grave about now with all this sinful Star Trek talk….haha
surely readers are scandalized by now….first, West Coast Swing, then the blatant use of the word “ass”, and now Star Trek….how much more wicked could we all possibly be???
ahahahah
one of us homeschool moms better don a long denim jumper dress fast and take things down a notch….Canary - you can wear your mountain hiking burkha…he he
Juli, Ever see a Canary stick her tongue out?????
Canary - ahaha..I knew you’d like that one! Inside jokes are great…
Yep, those sort of jokes are fun. By the way, my teenage daughters wouldn’t let me be seen DEAD in a jean dress. They try to keep me honest and hip when it comes to my style of clothing.
what wonderful daughters you have! haha
I guess I could add long prairie skirts with ruffled hems to the list..of course I do live in Texas, so doubtful this type of attire is worn, say, at CLC or other places. But being the home of Vision Forum and “all thing patriarchy” - you get the idea.
I like demin, just not for a dress. But I love my Gap denim jacket!
“I’ve asked God to take me through the Universe after I die, before I get to heaven. I want to see Jupiter close up, and go to the very edge of space to see what’s out there. It’s always been a fascination of mine. Wonder if He will “comply”? “
Canary,
I think we’re gonna get to have all kinds of fun in the vast cosmos that God created, it will be fun! I’m also looking forward to “seeing” His “home movies” of the creation and history and if possible, seeing what the lives of my ancestors were like - that would be cool.
btw: I can’t even look at the denim jumpers/dresses anymore in the Salvation Army/Goodwill/thrift stores after reading about patriarchy and all that it entails in the last 18 months. I used to love the idea of dressing “old fashioned” but NOT anymore.
Ellie - maybe if you dressed as a flapper that would suffice as being “Old Fashioned” - much more fun fashion if you ask me! haha
just don’t cut your hair short like flappers did, cause you know women having short hair is sinful… :) ahaha
Ellie, Just thinking about all the stuff we will experience with God is fun…
Canary - ever see the movie Contact with Jodie Foster? I thought the way they pictured space and worm holes, etc was rather cool…I imagine a joy ride thru space with the Creator would be something like that..only MUCH better. They have a video I saw at the Creation Museum planetarium that literally left me speechless (if you can imagine that..hehe)
the only thing I could think as I was watching it was :
“What is man, that you are mindful of him?”
well, we must not be THAT wicked…haha
Well, this is a fun conversation. Let’s see, where to jump in? First of all, and I think most importantly, I should tell you that I am a Star Trek purist. Yes, that’s right, Kirk is the only captain for me. One of my favorite Star Trek episodes is the one my sister and I affectionately call “The Buttheads”. Anyone remember?
Like canary, my daughters would have a conniption if I walked out of my closet wearing a denim jumper. Even my jeans pants and skirts must be carefully regulated by their expert fashion sense. This might sound somewhat oppressive, but I assure you, it’s fun!
On a more serious note, the idea of the vastness of space in comparison with how small and insignificant we are has been a recurring theme in my mullings. If any of you ever get the chance, I would HIGHLY recommend listening to a talk given by Louis Giglio on this topic, called “Indescribable”. He shows pictures taken, I believe, from the Hubble telescope that display the farthest reaches of space, as we know them. I couldn’t begin to paint the picture he does, so I won’t try. You come away realizing, or trying to somehow grasp, the enormity of the size of our universe. Then, he shows a photograph from Hubble where it has turned around as it ventures past Jupiter, I believe, and snaps the earth. Louis has to use a lazer pointer to indicate this tiny, pale, blue dot on the huge canvas of our Milky Way galaxy. That’s earth. That’s us.
I always feel so overwhelmed when I think of it. That tiny, nothing little planet, yet God has invested so much in it. In us. He, who made the vast universe and all of its wonder and beauty and who manages it so well not only cares about me, a tiny little dot on the tiny little dot, but wants relationship with me. Wow! Wow!
So when the troubles of life start to get me down, I think about how BIG my God is and that pale, blue dot and I am blessed.
Juli,
Yes, I’ve seen “Contact”. Pretty cool special effects. Neat worm hole. My fascination with space is because it makes me feel exactly what you said - who are we that God is mindful of us????
Gracie,
Okay, I like you even better than ever! James Kirk is my favorite captain. Can’t remember the episode you mention - was it really called that?
If you think about it, we are the first few generations to ever see space the way it is shown through the Hubble. Never have human eyes seen so much vastness and mystery and enormous beauty. We are very privileged.
The Universe makes me feel like you. How can God know the numbers of hair on my head, and yet be so big that he put the stars in place with his fingers? How can He have named each star when there are more stars in the heavens than grains of sands on the earth, and yet still know when one sparrow falls to the ground? It boggles my little birdbrain.
Ever see the Eagle nebula? They should have called it the creation nebula, because it looks like Jesus and some of His stranger creations are in the process of creating a star. When you think of the time in which the speed of light takes to travel, we are actually seeing the history of the Universe.
Recently, a nebula in the shape of a giant hand was seen. Is that coincidence? I don’t know, but it is certainly fascinating!
Here is a link to see the hand in space: Hwww.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,512767,00.
Sorry, I couldn’t get the link to work. If you google “hand in space”, you’ll get to see it!
Canary,
Ha Ha HA!! No, the Star Trek episode was not officially called the Buttheads. However, it was based on some aliens with oversized bald heads that had a large butt-like (pardon my crassness) crack down the back. Thus, our affectionate little title. I think the episode was really called The Empath.
hahah… Gracie… your crassness … hahah… If that is the standard of crass… I am toast!
And Gracie… big High Five… Kirk is the real captain….
All thought… Johnathan Archer wasn’t too bad.
Janaway … Bleeeeaaaaaacccckkkk. Could anyone hide behind the prime directive any more often?
And who doesn’t like T’Pal??
err…who IS T’Pal?
wow…I am feeling so left out…haha
oh no-Not Star Trek….has to be one of the worst theme music intros in the history of Television. The theme song reminds me of Dental chair music….
sorry to be so fickle-but they don’t call me musicman for nothing…..
Musicman…ahaha..for some strange reason there are lots of Trekkie fans on this blog…..funny, we can all agree to disagree on all sorts of doctrines, but when it comes to Star Trek, it seems there are quite a few VERY distinct opinions..I find that hilarous.
I have to agree with you about the music, although…I have to say that anyone, even a non-Trekkie, would instantly recognize the music, and that means something. I prefer the Star Wars music myself…hehe
Just to set all you Star Trek newbs straight. The episode in question has an interesting history. Originally, that was the “pilot” episode of Star Trek and was called the “The Cage.” Later, the pilot was used in a regular Trek episode called “The Menagerie,” which was the only two part episode in the series. The buttheads (or Talosians) were from a planet called Talos IV.
Juli — T’Pal was the (politically incorrect) hot Vulcan lady on the series “Enterprise.” Also, the Eagle Nebula (or “Pillars of Creation”) is 6,500 lights years from Earth — so the images we see (taken in 1995) is 6,500 years ago.
Fascinating stuff. I am a Captain Kirk guy…
I remember the “butthead” episode!
Ah, too bad about the Eagle Nebula. Just my imagination that I see figures in there that aren’t…did anyone check out the hand in space? Spooky, huh?
And I vote “NO!” to Captain Archer. Janeway by far was the best Captain in a race between the two. Being a woman, Janeway used the Prime Directive a lot because she was a discerning woman. But, I guess you men just can’t stand tosee your male roles being led by a strong woman…hee-hee-…Juli, now I’ve done it! Someone is going to give me the Vulcan squeeze on the shoulder…
Prime directive because of discernment Hhahahaha….
Hyummmm… starship captain = Janaway
“Discernment” = prime directive
Prime directive = do nothing?
Starship captain = do nothing
hahahahahaa…
ehem
The Prime Directive is a way of life John…deal with it.
do nothing as a way of life? Hu?
I guess we are dealing with passivity as a way of life. And we are dealing with leaders using the “I won’t get involved” life moto. ….
maybe you are right Dan … nothing to do about it. Just live and let live.
It’s….it is a Liberal plot to take over the world:
As you will recall, Star Fleet’s prime directive was never to interfere in the internal development of other planets. This was of course routinely ignored in any episode whose plot would have been stymied by it, but I think the general idea of a “prime directive” directed toward “others” is operating in the liberal mind. The Federation was made up of many races and cultures, and I doubt very seriously that they showed this extreme latitude toward each other, as it would have made “federation” impossible. They could quite legitimately conduct coups or discipline unruly planets or cultures of their own. But when it came to “the other,” they were determined not to judge. So the “prime directive” translated as “we hold our own to a standard; we refuse to judge ‘the other.’”
Or is this an example of the “Conservative Media Plot.”
Something to think about…
Otherwise, I got nothing….
I can’t believe that somehow, Star Trek and the prime directive have turned into a teachable moment…ahahah
not being familiar with the PD in the first place…this is interesting.
how does one define judging others? how does one define loving others? what do each look like? does it have anything to do with responsibility at all, or is that just an assumption we have made?
I’ve heard far too many people justify their lack of love and judgment of others by spouting out that they are “speaking the truth in love” and somehow that is the magic wand that is waved and absolves them of any offense or insult to the other person that has been rendered. And if the other person was offended, then they say it is because they are blinded…and if they try to defend themselves, then the one “speaking the truth” revels in the fact they are being persecuted for the cause of Christ.
It’s a lose-lose situation. You can’ t reason with people like this. Because they aren’t listening to you in the first place. And they don’t CARE about you in the first place. So if they aren’t listening and not caring, then how can they be loving you?
People aren’t stupid, they can spot an agenda a mile away. And if you have an agenda to change someone, what does that presume?
Juli,
It presumes that one does not accept the person as is. Good point. I love the verse when Jesus said that He did not come to judge the world, but to save it!
John,
You are funny. I can just hear your laughter when you post your opinion about the PD. However, I have to agree with Dan on this one. And don’t forget the times when the PD was over-ruled or ignored out of compassion. Damn the prime directive, I’m going to help these people!
Roddenberry would be so pleased that his creations are being discussed in the “arena of ideas”. Hee- hee…
Dan,
Some people think the Universe isn’t much older than 5 or 6 thousand years. I have no opinion on the matter, since I don’t understand it all. However, I still enjoy looking at the Eagle Nebula and picturing Jesus with His more interesting angel-types creating a star. Interesting how that part of the Nebula is so much larger than the teenie-tiny edge that looks like eagle wings, yet earth men chose to focus on that as a name.
I remember when the image first came out that there was talk of how the Nebula looked like Jesus creating a star, but that talk was soon hushed. Ah well, what do we expect from a world which discovered the planets in our solar system, and then named them after false Roman Gods? Ah, the infinite patience of our Creator…
I’m sure Roddenberry would be extatic. That was his leading issue with the pilot … he wanted seroius ideas in his Sci-fi but was concerned that the audiece would not GET it.
His passion for ideas is why the original dealt with racism, LT Ahura (sp) and the cold war between Russia and the US, et al.
He believed that one could tell those kind of stories in the Sci fi context. What a brilliant Visionairy.
Yes, the “Great Bird of the Galaxy” is still with us in spirit.
Canary, however old the universe is (about 13.6 billion years according to the lastest scientific estimate), the fact is the Eagle Nebula produces jaw dropping wonder. To ponder the idea that something so violent at its base (the creation of new stars) can be so beautiful is mind boggling. BTW, what exits beyond the edge of the universe?
Juli — it presumes they know better or their truth as they know it is the only way to go. John has this right, there is no way for another person just casually looking into another’s life and being able to discern the whole truth. Human beings are complicated creatures and most people don’t want to be bothered by the details.
John:
I actually saw Gene Roddenberry speak one time (this is where I saw the original Star Trek pilot espisode The Cage — in black and white). You are right, he was a brilliant visionary…except for the fact he didn’t speak very well (meaning he was not very articulate in person).
But then again, he will always be remembered as the creator of Star Trek.
John, interesting point about Sci Fi being the forum for introducing ideas that otherwise might not have been received…although you are right, many would miss the point. John Bunyon touched on this ability with his allegorical writing of Pilgrim’s Progress..using allegory he was able to talk about some controversial subjects.
This is why literature and the arts are so important…it should come as no surprise it is often through the arts that some of the most powerful and effective statements are made…it doesn’t meant the ideas are always good, but they do come. Man’s creative outworkings become the most effective forum for truth then to be presented, in a sense.
does that mean the Arena of Ideas here really IS in the Beta quadrant as Dan suggested? haha
I’m sorry, I stumbled onto this blog post (and comments) from SGM Refuge.
I’ve never commented before, but I simply had to set all of your Trek facts straight.
Earth is in the Alpha Quadrant, sector 001. If you ask me (which I know you’re not), it’s a bit ethnocentric to set our planet at the numeric beginning of the galaxy, but it is what it is. The Romulan and Klingon Empires continue into the Beta Quadrant, the Dominion and other side of the Bajoran Wormhole is in the Gamma Quadrant, and the Delta Quadrant was where Janeway and the crew of Voyager were stranded–along with most of Borg space.
And just so you’re all aware–Roddenberry is not exactly a man to be admired. He was a very promiscuous man in the 60s, having a polyamourous relationship with two of the actresses on the show simultaneously. As far as him being a “visionary”–he did have a very positive view of the future…but in my opinion, it’s far too positive of a view. This showed itself more in the Next Generation series, where he ordered the writers to view the humans as “more evolved creatures” who have bettered themselves so much so that they never had interpersonal conflict whatsoever. It’s an incredibly atheistic and humanistic view of the world, where mankind doesn’t need God–he can find betterment within himself. Star Trek is a utopian fantasy that works out the worldview of no sin, with no God.
Which is why Deep Space Nine was so great, because after Mr. Roddenberry died, the writers took it in the exact opposite direction, seeing what they could explore within the darker places of the characters. Those characters WEREN’T perfect, which is what made them so much more relatable and interesting. And on top of that, some of them were even RELIGIOUS, and the show would even represent their religion in a positive light–and it would play a very large role in the overall storyline of the series.
Don’t take this as an attack on any one of you–I come as a friend. I just get really excited about stories in general, television in particular, and Star Trek most of all. I realize this has next to nothing to do with the original post, but I just wanted to get that off my chest.
Matt — welcome to the Arena of Ideas.
Your facts regarding the Star Trek “Quadrant” system are correct as far as I know and have been able to check (I to read the Wiki article and I do see I got my Quadrants mixed up — my apologies. Star Trek Voyager was not a favorite of mine).
You bring up an interesting point. There were hints of “God” references in the old series (”Bread and Circuses”) which leads me to believe Roddenberry didn’t complete discount the affect religion would have in the 24th century.
How does that play with you all in here? Does it bother you Roddenberry did not include a strong religious influence in his vision of the future?
By the way, I “admire” Roddenberry only in that he was able to express very controversial and relevant ideas in an entertaining and creative way.
Whereas in Battlestar Galactica, religion played a huge role in the series.
Matt….
Brilliant!!! And Welcome. And I am sooo NOT concerned that this post has ended up talking about Star Trek. Much more interesting in my mind.
The ideas in Star Trek … whether orthodox or new age are still a discussion of … well Ideas.
And as Dan has rightly pointed out… this is the Arena for them.
Hang around if you are inclined…if not… thanks for stopping by!
Dan,
hmm…personally, I think the absence of faith, God or religion doesn’t automatically discount the ideas presented as wrong, immoral or invalid….just like the presence of faith, religion and God doesn’t automatically make the ideas right and moral.
As a result, Roddenberry’s character is of little concern to me in terms of how I view his “vision” and whatever ideas he was furthering. I am able to see the ideas for what they are - presented by an imperfect man to be sure. And likewise, I can also see that a man of good “moral standing” doesn’t imply that what he teaches is all good and should be swallowed whole either. Catholics do that with the Pope I’d think.
This is the problem though. When we don’t take the time to think through the ideas themselves - attaching morality (by whatever definition that may be) to the idea because we have attached it to or removed it from the messenger, forces us into an intellectual bind..because now the validity and effectiveness of any idea presented is directly proportional and justified (or not) by the individual presenting it.
This is why men attack your character when they don’t like the ideas you are presenting. The minute you concede to this argument, the ideas, no matter how “true” or “moral” are dead in the water simply because you as the messenger have been discredited.
I think there is a name for this tactic - John, help me out here? I think you’ve talked/written about this before somewhere….I may have just butchered it though..
Juli-
Yes the “ad hominum” attack or “shoot the messenger” as they say out west….I think it’s a fair question to ask if a person practices what they preach, but just because someone might be imperfect does not mean that their ideas are all wrong.
The flip side, is that many leaders seek out other respected persons for “borrowed credibility”. It’s what photo ops are all about-creating an image that so and so leader (church or political) is just as admirable, smart, or honest as this other person because they shook hands or spoke at the same pastoral conference and then talked about college basketball while they ate at the Outback Steakhouse together…
It’s designed to slip past people’s critical thinking and mind-block any thoughts that might lead them to a less than stellar opinion of them or their ideas.
Musicman, thanks! yeah, that is what I was thinking of, could not remember which argument it was though…
so back to Roddenberry - I think it is possible to glean from his visionary undertakings, and learn from them. But it requires a discerning mind and heart..not judging the man, but the ideas.
I think too many Christians get hung up judging the man (or woman) and write off whatever they are teaching or saying simply because their conduct doesn’t agree with them. We argue over matters of the conscience and are divided.
Of course, if you examine the outworkings of any given body of ideas, take them to their logical conclusions as John always advocates, then you find the error, and do gain insight into how the individual at least thinks or determines things. But that is vastly different than “judging someone” simply based on what they DO or don’t do…
Gospel according to John Immel - Chapter 3: 1-3
By the way, I “admire” Roddenberry only in that he was able to express very controversial and relevant ideas in an entertaining and creative way.
Dan, your words echo my own thoughts. I noticed the lack of religion in Roddenberry’s idea of the future but, knowing he was not a Christian, was able to continue to enjoy the series. He never, that I remember, offended those who believed in God as much as he avoided the subject all together. Of course, I am only speaking of the early series.
I don’t know what is beyond space, but I’d love to find out!
Matt,
Welcome, and thanks for the correction! One thing in this arena of ideas - we can admit when we’ve been wrong. It was the Delta quadrant that Voyager was lost in. Duh. Haven’t watched the series in a while. Boy, do I feel dumb, which happens quite often, as we canaries have such little birdbrains.
I don’t know Roddenbury or his personal life. I only watched his show and enjoyed the entertainment. In fact, when Deep Space Nine came into the picture, I didn’t watch it much because of the religious side to it. I tend to get a little touchy watching people (even actsor) worship a false god. It is better for me if religion is completely left out of the picture.
Because we are individuals, we tend to filter ideas, even entertainment, in different ways. I can watch very little TV nowadays, because of the content. Others don’t feel the same. While a movie might inspire one person, it might offend another. So, we have to understand that when we talk about Star Trek, too.
But, of course, we all don’t know as much about the series as we thought. May I say again? DUH. You are now the resident Star Trek expert.
I think Juli is the resident expert on everything else….
just snarking you Juli —
Canary - if Matt is the resident expert, then I guess that would make me the resident Star Trek Ignoramous..hehe
I know what you mean about movies..sometimes, I can watch things that don’t bother my conscience, and others times, I’ve actually had to get up and leave the theatre.
I have friends who would tell me “If you wouldn’t let your child watch it YOU shouldn’t watch it” and I just thought that was silly and legalistic. My ten year old doesn’t have the intellectual, spiritual or emotional capacity to filter the ideas being presented in many movies…he’s a sponge, just soaks it all up but can’t process it. And this leads to confusion which I would rather not expose him to. But sometimes, they just go right over his head - no harm in that either as far as I am concerned.
Once my son and I watched the old Pink Panther movies with Peter Sellers (he loves physical comedies) - Revenge of the Pink Panther where Cato thinks Clouseau dies, and then turns his apartment into a Chinese brothel…
Cato: Please, boss! I thought you were dead!
Clouseau: So as a tribute to my memory, you open this… this Chinese nookie factory?
As I was laughing hysterically, my son (then about 7 or 8) asks me: “Mom, what is a Chinese cookie factory? Is that where they make fortune cookies?”
Ahh….gotta love the innocence.
ahha, Dan you are so funny. John is clearly the expert around these parts, I’m just here for entertainment..
Dan,
Very funny story. I love kids!
What you say is very true. We should listen to our consciences. Isn’t that what they are for? When someone sets unreasonable rules on us, they infringe on our personal freedom. Most of the time, the rules are plain stupid (of course, I do not speak of civil laws, just social type pressure to follow the crowd). Of course, I would never wish to cause another person to stumble in regards to my freedom. I can, out of love, pass up that glass of wine or leave a movie theater if the person I’m with would somehow be caused to stumble. I think Romans speaks of this.
Hey John,
Have you ever thought of discussing how Hollywood, movies, and TV have promoted ideas that have harmed our society, how men have used the media to get others thinking what they want them to?
The big one that comes to mind is when Ellen D. confessed on her sitcom that she was homosexual. The backlash was huge, and her show went off the air. Shortly afterwards, almost every movie put out had a sympathetic sodomizer (hey, I say it like it is) as a side-kick to the main character. The attempt to integrate this lifestyle into our thinking as acceptable was so blatant it was almost funny. Hollywood was out to change the minds of its audience bigtime.
Have you thought about how liberal movie makers use this power to form ideas in those who watch their products? I think quite a few generations have succumbed to the mind-meld of movie producers and such (okay - just keeping the Star Trek thread going - :) ). Talk about moral seduction!
Juli,
You are the resident “keep it real” administrator. You keep us on our toes!
Canary - a friend of mine whose daughter watched Disney movies all the time asked him how he and her mother could be married since she had never seen them dance together.
Because she had seen over and over how every princess dances with her prince, you know, in the Disney movies..so this little darling assumed that dancing together meant being married. Not that Disney set out to plant this idea in her head, but the ideas do invetiably come, esp when repeated over and over.
If that premise of dancing = marriage was true, then John, you would be a polygamist in a WORLD of trouble! hahaha
Canary — it’s all about choice. We choose when we are intimidated, are exasperated and offended at what we read and see in movies, on TV. These artificial limits or points where we get offended are something we create from various sources like our childhood, our parents our experiences, our filters, etc.
My limits are different than yours so for example, homosexuality as depicted by Hollywood does not offend me; whatever agenda they have they can have. I have the ultimate power….I don’t have to watch or I don’t have to buy a ticket.
On the other hand, I would never like to see some things depicted on screen but they are anyway (movies like Saw or Hostel). To me these types of things are an affront to our society. But living in a free society means the makers of these types of “entertainment” have a right to make what they want.
I know this seems like a contradiction or an inconsistency in my thinking, but I am okay with that. Human beings are complicated and maybe inconsistent beliefs are just part of being human. I know this drives John crazy though. I rarely find the “truth” to be in the extreme — usually it lies in the middle somewhere.
I am going to have to ponder on how to relate this to Star Trek…let’s face it, everything we know, we learned from Star Trek.
“Too much of anything Lieutenant, even love, is not necessarily a good thing.”
Captain James T. Kirk in
The Trouble with Tribbles
Oh and Juli:
“I think the absence of faith, God or religion doesn’t automatically discount the ideas presented as wrong, immoral or invalid….just like the presence of faith, religion and God doesn’t automatically make the ideas right and moral.”
This is brilliant.
Actually yes, I have thought about this at length. For lots of reasons, I spend time studying movies, their ideas, their presentation, and the methods they employ.
And there are certainly a vast number of movies that have been and are shaping public opinion. Hollywood believes itself central in the shaping of public opinion and morality.
They are only in the sense they tend to have the apparatus to be relentless in voicing common themes.
But they are playing the game of ideas in a vacuum. They are loosing market share by ever increasing measures. Viewership of movies is dropping for a host of reasons. Some of the problem is the advent of other forms of communication and distribution, but that is hardly the whole issue. Hollywood is championing values that are profoundly and observably false. The only way you can win with such failed thoughts is to prevent anyone from offering better ideas.
Since I tend to go across the grain of conventional wisdom it required getting people up to speed on the whys and wherefores of my commentary. Standard Christian criticism is against the moral advocacy of the Gay and Lesbian activists. And while I do understand where that originates from in my estimation it is the least of our cultural problems.
As I have written about in other places sexual identity is an end not a means. In other words sexual identity is the culmination of deep, deep seated philosophical ideas. So, no matter how permissive a culture treats sexual expression the reality is sexual identity comes from within. I could hear exhortation to bestiality every day for the rest of my life and it would never drive me to lust after a cow. LOL.
The moral seduction of Hollywood is actually imbedded in the very same body of ideas that I have been talking about: Collectivism, socialism, tribalism, Ethnicity diversity et al.
My criticisms about Hollywood would not be about Ellen DeGeneres or others identified by sexual interest; if she likes women, then that is between her and her maker and not really any of my business.
My criticisms about Hollywood are against the rated G and PG movies. Once one knows what to look for you will see endless references to altruism, and original sin.
Some of you are like “Original Sin? In Hollywood? Immel, where do you get that?”
LOL… one word Environmentalism.
The link is to Michael Crichton.com were he points out the elements of the religion of urban atheists. I can’t use his words here because his speech/post has a permission requirement and credit should be given where it is due.
But his commentary is dead on. The ancient archetypes that have been used through human literature are the abiding themes imbedded in the Environmentalist movements. We are resurrecting the polytheism of old with all of its disastrous outworking.
Radical Monotheism was/is the single greatest evolution of human thought; it is the foundation of God’s progressive revelation to humanity. Without this a predicate assumption nothing you see around you is possible. None of it.
Let me say something truly scandalous and then offer virtually no explanation: Environmentalism has become a far more profound threat to our existence than Sodom and Gomorrah has ever been.
So, the next time you are with your cute little tykes watching a Pixar presentation and you see some variation of save the Whales, or the Polar Bears, because GIA will get mad if you don’t abandon your wealth and live like ancient man for the greater good of the planet. You would to well to be as outraged as you would be if Ellen DeGeneres came to your 4th grade class and advocated Sapphic love.
Because your kids ARE being morally seduced and they bring their environmental philosophy home and mom and dad succumb to the pressure and buy a Preius and start eating Free Range Chickens and Tofu, because GIA might really be angry. And even if GIA doesn’t exist, they would rather not suffer the wrath of the 9 year old Global Warming zealot.
Juli- If that premise of dancing = marriage was true, then John, you would be a polygamist in a WORLD of trouble! hahaha
I’m thinking this is how rumors get started. But then again… poligamy is in the bible… hummmmm
I feel some Orneriness coming on..a.ahahahahahah
ok..now, I never said you were a polygamist John…hehe..just saying since you’ve danced with your share of women doing WCS…by some standards (like my friend’s little girl) you are married to all of them…how scandalous!
Environmentalism…hmm…never thought about it that way of course…but then again, even when I did live in Boulder, Colorado, no one could accuse me of being a tree hugger.
Dan,,
Great thoughts. I see your point. I like sharing ideas with you!
You are very…(here it comes)…logical.
John,
I was only using the Elen D. thing as an example. Yes, Christians tend to focus on homosexuality or abortion as great sins, while fornicaation, divorce, and adultery are just as prevalent in our society, and just as deadly to the soul.
Enviromentalism makes me ANGRY. I buy nothing that says “green” on it. I use plastic bags. I don’t recycle, I didn’t use cloth diapers (are you kidding? I had five kids!), I will never ride my bike to work, and I drive a big, ole’ Durango.
I see the big E as a way for others to gain control, just another way for elitists to make themselves feel superior, and rake in the moolah. Heck, I wonder how much money Al Gore has made off his Global Warming crap? That really makes me MAD.
The Bible says that this earth is like an old garment wearing out. We can’t save the planet! I believe we should be good stewards, but for goodness sake, should we all stop using plastic bags because, once in a great while, a fish gets killed? Oh brother…
So, I’m with you on this one, John. I am in my own little “green” revolt. If I hear another commercial that says “go green”, I’ll scream. Actually, that’s another reason that I don’t watch commercial television very much. My bp can’t take it!
Phew. That felt really good.
Well-I disagree with you guys on this….I think issues like air pollution caused by cars is a big deal. If you don’t think it’s a big deal try standing in your garage for more than 3 minutes with the car running and the garage door shut (actually-please don’t do this), but do you see my point. I really refuse to be drawn into the global warming debate-I cared about air pollution way before I ever even heard of such a theory. I’m much more concerned about the recent spill of Chlorine from the paper mill in my town and the practical effect it has on my drinking water and the public health issues that ensue.
We have all adopted machinery in our lives that can cause great harm to human health. Why is it a bad idea to inform people about the possible impacts of their use of certain technology? I understand that many frame their arguments in the original sin/ altruism pardigm-but does that make clean air and water a bad idea? The earth might be wearing out, but does that give us the right to be neglectful or wasteful of natural resources.
John-I guess I’d have to hear your definition of Enviornmentalism to really know whether I agree with your thought that it is our greatest threat….
Canary (sorry to pick on you) but I believe your reducing the argument to one fish is just that, reductionism…
What about the employees making the plastic bags who are exposed to Poly Viynl Chloride and may not know that their exposure brings with it a whole host of health issues for them and their future children?
What about the employer who holds back internal scientific reports because it shows their employees will suffer greatly because of such exposure?
I used to live near DuPont Chemicals-I forget which industrial chemical they used to produce-but their own internal reports showed that any employee working for over 3 years in that division had a 100 percent chance (yes-100 percent chance) of developing a fatal type of liver cancer. Guess what they did with the report-they hid it-and decided it would be cheaper to pay their employee health benefits as they died, instead of solving the enviormental hazard that their employees faced. This to me is murder and demands justice and has nothing to do with global warming or Al Gore (who I’m not a fan of…)
I actually think terrorism has been the more blatant issue to forego civil liberties and advocate a dangerous type of Nationalism. But that’s another discussion (I guess?)
Sorry to be the stick in the mud-but much of what I personally believe about enviornemental issues are issues of Justice (in the Biblical sense) and Loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Alright-I’m bracing for the next round of comments coming my way….
my sword is drawn, now I stand or fall in the arena of ideas…
peace to you all-mm
I haven’t read the Creighton piece yet, so just a disclaimer that I haven’t fully engaged all that John put on the table….I’ll let you know my impression when I’m done reading it….
yeah, you guys gotta read that link to M Crichton, it explains everything and is really good…because it isn’t really about the issues we think here, there are greater atrocities being committed…think cause/effect, root/fruit, disease/symptoms, heart/actions. And then don’t think in terms of the latter ones.
ok..here are my four thousand cents worth (not because they are worth that necessarily, but because this is SO lengthy, sorry!)
I’ve been thinking about the ol’ saying in Christian circles that God doesn’t “rate sin” - i.e. that a sin is a sin and it doesn’t matter in God’s eyes. I can’t tell you how often I’ve heard that.
I had a talk tonight with a woman (a Christian friend) about abortion. I had an abortion as you all know…she was telling me (because she knows I’m healed and free now) that she can’t imagine that anyone would think that a mother killing the innocent life of her own child in the womb that she was to protect and nurture was NOT a worse sin, than say, lying. She could not understand how anyone could think that was OK. Well, she had a point, sort of.
I told her women justify their abortions the same way the Puritans justified killing “witches”, and the Germans justified Hitler as their Chancellor when smoke was rising in the air from bodies being burned, and Christians while killing non-Christians in the Crusades.
And the shock she feels thinking about abortion? The same way we now look back at the Salem Witch Trials and these other events and think “How could they be so stupid and blind to sit back and think that was OK?”
I told her that according to the Scriptures, there are degrees of eternal punishment in hell, that much was clear, whatever that meant specifcally I sure didn’t know. But, it’s in the red letters, and it’s in the black letters. Sometimes it is explained what action constituted the greater punishment. And the same goes for rewards. Degrees of reward. Degrees of responsibility. Degrees of understanding. Degrees of faith. To whom much is given, much is required. Jesus said the woman who loved much was forgiven much, and the one who was forgiven little, loved little.
Ok, so clearly God is into proportion, which doesn’t surprise me. As I explained to my friend, the thing most people don’t realize about any “sin” is that it is never isolated. Yet we think of sin in that way - the ACT of abortion, the ACT of divorce, the ACT of sex outside marriage, the ACT of homosexuality, the ACT of murder, the ACT of getting drunk….
what we always forget is that these are and never could be isolated acts and decisions..they are a culmination of hundreds of previous decisions and choices. NO WOMAN wakes up one day, finds out she is pregnant and simply “decides” to have an abortion. She may have never thought she would be in the position to make that specific decision, but she has made lots of others choices before then that she now begins to utilize as her framework for that one decision.
She has made a series of choices and determinations (developing her philosophy, as it were, along the way) that has, in effect, served as her justification for any and all her decisions in life, and she will do the same now, if she decides to go to a clinic and get an abortion. And the moment she leaves the clinic, she begins the process again of making decisions.
We all do this in life - we justify our reasons to make the decisions we do (called decision-making process), then justify our reasons to others and ourselves why we made them after we make them…this is our right as individuals, they are our decisions that ultimately we are responsible for, right? We should be convinced we are making the “best” decisions of course, and make every attempt to do so.
Fornication just “doesn’t happen” accidentally, divorce just doesn’t happen overnight, being a homosexual and coming out of the closet just doesn’t happen all at once…we tend to focus on the logical conclusions of a whole host of choices that people have made that ultimately lead to death for these people and those around them: death of a marriage, death of a child, death of an identity….but forget about the progression of dying involved. Everything that does not come from faith is sin. And the wages of sin is death. What do those verses mean?
I believe it is the progression of exchanging truth for a lie, bit by bit……And THAT is why it is sin and always leads to death, why the wages of sin (unbelief) is death. It isn’t the isolated acts in and of themselves…it is the persistent exchange that has taken place and MUST CONTINUE to take place in order to justify the act, whatever it may be.
So, with this constant internal justification and exchange going on, it is no wonder there is no repentance (or, a CHANGE of mind).
Without repentance, there is no healing, no forgiveness, no freedom, no life.
We see the acts of death that are occurring and it is so OBVIOUSLY death in our minds. The man beating his wife, the child being sexually abused, the woman being raped, the addict who is destroying his/her life with drugs or alcohol, etc. ANd we wonder why these people don’t get it? The same way we wouldn’t. One step at a time. We all make choices every day, all day.
So this explains why women who have had abortions, for example, still suffer years later even though they feel “sorry” for what they did. They have never repented or had a change of mind. They are still trying to justify their decision through coping skills, avoidance, denial, depression, etc. to be free enough to even have a change of mind.
Nobody is going to be accidentally punished for sin. God is just. And, He is not willing any should perish. Truth is available for those who seek it, and persist in seeking it…the truth sets you free, and sets you on the path to life. And we have the ability to choose life, or choose death. God is not choosing for us, because HE is not the author of sin - we are, by our choices.
Juli — as always, very well said and articulated.
I read the Michael Creighton piece and while I agree with many of his points, I believe someone equally as articulate could produce “hard science” to show the adverse effects of pollution and the use of fossil fuels on the Earth.
Again, I don’t believe the truth is in the extreme position.
Finally, along these same lines, here is a link to a Charlton Heston speech from 1999:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/charltonhestonculturalwar.htm
I think the issues he brings out are appropriate for this discussion.
(sorry — I don’t know how to fix the link to shorten it…)
One more thing, Canary, thanks — the feeling is mutual — although, I’ve always wanted to be a Captain Kirk kind of guy (he got all the girls — most of the time).
I had a crush on Kirk as a young girl in the 70’s, but when I look at Shattner now I think the same thing when I would look at Marlon Brando - “man he didn’t age well at all”
by the way…this is the extent of my environmentalism: I care about nature, but not because someone tells me I should or that I have to. I think God’s creation is beautiful and landfills (and we got a lot of them here in Texas) are just ugly and spoil the view…
and trash on the side of the road is ugly and irritates me (Don’t Mess with Texas is actually a slogan from an anti-litter campaign on Texas highways years ago, it isn’t a “pride” thing, contrary to popular opinion)
But still, the driving force for me to recycle would be so that landfills aren’t so big and ugly, or maybe because God stopped making fossil fuels, minerals and elements a long time ago. It has nothing to do with the ozone or global consciousness. It actually is all about my own preferences and the world around me being visually appealing…hehe ok, so now someone can string me up
Canary: John, I was only using the Elen D. thing as an example.
Yeah… I understood. As was I… Elen D made herself and anecdote as have others who have set out to define their public selves by a specific sexual identity. So the challenge is how do you talk in generalites by using anecdotes.
I don’t have a good answer for that specific question.
Hahah… the irony here makes me giggle… oh wait, I’ve been told that men can’t giggle… so ok.. it makes me chortle.
See, here is the thing. A car, a garage, a human does not an environment make. While yes, the CO of a car exhaust is harmful to say a Canary it is not harmful to say a forest.
Concentration of any gas is harmful to something. Fill a room with O2 and it can be equally harmful to humans.
The issue in the static space of a garage is chemistry not pollution.
And as an aside, put enough horses, pigs and cows in a garage and breath deep of their “pollution” I suspect our suburbanized souls will be looking for the car keys uno momento.
In the grand scheme of gas consequence to humans
CO2 fall pleasantly asleep.
CH4 get blown up.
LOL
I suppose we could and should ask, if there is an agenda by environmentalists (and this of course is a rhetorical question) that like the realm of faith/religion the information being provided to the masses for consumption is intended to accomplish something. The question is - what?
So I suppose I can even agree on some points of environmentalism, or religion, or politics, or psychology and not even be aware I am consuming other ideas simultaneously. When I swallowed total depravity, I had no idea everything I had swallowed with it, for example. Only later did I realize the package deal.
So if I concede to, say, the idea that the ozone layer needs to be protected, I have actually first agreed that
1)it is in fact diminishing,
2)it’s presence is crucial,
3)that CFC’s are the cause of problems,
4) that such-and-such is the cure,
5) and the consequences of a damaged ozone I am unwilling to live with as an individual.
you could add more of course.
here’s the thing - all along the way someone else is filling in the blanks for me. It is a package deal, it always is. One idea supports another - that is how it works. So you never swallow anything in isolation. Be it religion or the environment. You agree to one point, then comes the next “logical” step.. but it is seldom actually logical, but it is logical only in context to the first illogical assumption you have conceded to.
You began trotting down the path, so each step seems logical to you because your predicate assumption is logical in your mind. If your predicate assumption is flawed, however, then everything that follows is flawed as well. But you don’t realize this because your baseline is the flawed predicate assumption, not truth.
So I need to, as a thinking individual, examine the entire picture, the arguments, the historical evidence, the scientific evidence, etc…until I come to whatever conclusion I do.
What I don’t need to do is take a tree hugger’s word for it when it comes to the environment. Or take a pastor’s word for it when it comes to my faith or religion. Their passion alone would be enough to convince me they were right without me even looking at anything for myself.
And this is often the case - we simply take someone at face value and never take the time to think. Passions of others can be compelling, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t misplaced.
John, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
MM,
I get you. There is nothing wrong with being good stewards. What I hate is how some Enviro-mentals go to extremes, how it all has become so political, and is being used to take more and more control of our liberties. I agree with Juli on the sight of garbage and such being yucky. Don’t like that. I never litter. It is when Enviro-mentals go to their extremes that I get angry.
Even products are advertised as “green”, just to take advantage of our guilt-filled brains because we’ve heard so much about how we are needing to save the planet. That is what makes me mad. Some are taking the whole “green” thing over to manipulate others for selfish agendas.
I am sure there are sincere environmentalists who hate the politics of it just as much as I do. Being good stewards of the earth: Yes. Using Environmentalism to subjugate us and steal our liberties: Definitely NO!
P.S. I had a brother-in-law who died of cancer he contracted from using chemicals in his job. He was not told of the chemicals cancer-causing properties. Before he died, he sued the company and won, which gave money for my sister to support her two boys. There are laws in place to help with these situations.
Canary -
yeah, at some point, all ideas get marketed and someone tries to make a profit. It happens in every arena: politics, religion, education, psychology, finance, entertainment, you name it. And, not that profiting in any way is a bad thing in and of itseld, I don’t think that at all. Work and effort equals profit, it is how God intended. But if profit comes at the expense of another, or comes deceptively, then it is wrong. Then it is exploitation.
Some justify their actions as benefitting the greater good, but really they are just justifying their self-absorbtion by redefining it as philanthropy or charity or “serving one another” and that pisses me off.
That is not love, or “charity” in the biblical sense, it is self-absorbtion. And it is wicked to do it in the name of love and concern for others. And, this behavior is all too familiar to many of us commenters here…
Yes, Juli. You are so right.
Juli… you have made my month! you are listening … you are making very subtle and very effective, very powerful distinctions.
YEEEE Freaking HAWWWW!!!
Juli good point. It can be very hard sometimes to see the “whole” picture. This is why I feel we must always be ready to modify our understanding of truth as more and more variables are revealed.
This seems to bother alot of people though — knowing that they don’t know it all. To me this makes life interesting — we can never really know it all — but the process of trying to find out is where the cool stuff happens. In other words….
Stuff Happens! (There is another word I thought of using here….but I didn’t want to offend Canary’s sensibilities —
)
Canary: Even products are advertised as “green”, just to take advantage of our guilt-filled brains because we’ve heard so much about how we are needing to save the planet. That is what makes me mad. Some are taking the whole “green” thing over to manipulate others for selfish agendas.
If Hollywood has done anything to shape public opinion on issues environmental is has been to obscure the agenda of those pursuing political ends.
With far too much frequency the environmental debate breaks down the lines of those for and against pollution. Be against sundry environmental measures and be FOR killing Bambi.
What gets lost then is the direct assault on the individual in the name of environmental rights. In a stroke of mad marketing genius trees and grass and flowers,m and deer, and rabbits, and polar bears have become constituencies. Creatures that are given political and voting status by virtue of cleverly written laws and justified into the minds of the public through a relentless Hollywood campaign to anthropomorphize animals or Deify nature.
As a result people can not criticize the public policy without disqualifying themselves from the conversation. We have all seen this argumentative dynamic used before in our personal church lives.
Canary pointed to guilt, used to manipulate. That is exactly what it is designed to do. I have written about how these methods are used in the Religious arena … notice my contention is that the global environmental movement is really a religious movement in political disguise. Notice that they tend to use the same fundamental philosophical progressions to pacify the body politic for the express purpose of tyrannizing the individual.
The global environmental movement is the new home of socialism/collectivism. The assault is always against those who HAVE to give to those who don’t HAVE, for the express purpose of the greater good, the collective, or GIA. The public policy is driven by the same fundamental moral seduction outlined in the Commencement speech given by President Obama.
Strictly speaking cleaning up oil spills, toxic dumps, or even human waist treatment plants are technological problems. And it is inarguable that America has lead the world in advancing technology that has created the cleanest most hazard free society on the planet.
Due to the relentless Hollywood machine most people don’t know this because they inundated with disinformation. This combined with the fact that they are isolated in their very safe environmentally friendly homes prevents them from seeing nature, real nature expressed in all its brutal indifference.
A growing number of suburbanites have never taken a leak up against a tree or used leaves to finish their toilet routine. How can this very narrow world view be credible?
Take a trip to most any other country on earth and yow will experience the abject failure of humanity to successfully overcome those technological failures. Venture most anywhere in Asian, African, South America, or European countries and you will see a squalor that parallels the middle ages. And follow the cultural assumptions to their roots and you will find imbedded some form of Altruism, Polytheism, and original sin.
Man cannot, will not, live as a slave. And while you may shackle his body you can not shackle his mind. The moment he cannot use his mind for his own benefit he quits living. The doctrines that I have been exposing are designed to enslave the man by eliminating or enslaving the mind.
A culture cannot find technological solutions to the things that ails it by enslaving the minds of men. It can not be done. In every instance where enslavement reigns, poverty, corruptions and death are the standard of human living.
<clapping>
bravo, John. well said, as usual.
and you make some wicked points to boot.
*sigh* this is all nothing new under the sun unfortunately.
Whoa, good post, John. That’s what I see but couldn’t quite put in words. My sister has always said that environmentalism is a religion. You think I’ve got opinions, just imagine me tripled. That’s my sis.
I think that is what upsets me about the Gay community. I don’t care what someone does in the privacy of their own homes. Sodomy is a very old sin, but so is gossip. Without Jesus, any sin will doom us.
It is how the gay community tries to intimidate, manipulate, and subvert the will of the people. They aren’t happy that they have the freedom to live how they want. They demand that society validate their lifestyle. After a state votes no to gay marriage, they get judges to legislate from the bench, therefore ignoring and voiding the will of the majority. That makes this canary verrrrry cranky. Puts me right off my birdseed.
If, one day, the majority of voters support gay marriage, then there is nothing more to say. Until that time, a minority of people should not try to force anyone to validate them through propaganda and intimidation (words like “homo-phobe” really tick me off!), nor should they be allowed to scorn the will of the majority.
Of course, the difference is the environ-mentals have money and science on their side. The science that exposes global warming as a hoax is not allowed to air in the media. In this case, information is being withheld to control public opinion.
Sigh?
No… don’t sigh… fight! This battle is only being lost because evil wicked pernicious and destructive ideas are being advocated in a vacuum. Slavery persists only as long as the enslaved allow their masters to justify their tyranny.
Speak and take action. This is the essence of faith. Advocate truth. Be relentless in its pursuit. Seek, Ask and Knock. Refuse to be intimidated or to fear … For the not even the grave can hold you… there is no sting in death…
oh John, you know me better than that! -I may sigh at it all, but I never stay quiet!
Clearly some choices lead to death…and yes, I’m going to say it - a lifestyle of homosexuality DOES ultimately lead to death. But so does abortion, drunkeness, drug-use, gluttony, idolatry, laziness, and a whole host of other choices we can make.
So people are free to make the choices they do, clearly. I don’t want to take that from them, and I should not presume to. But like you Canary, it makes me mad when people try to justify their decisions that lead to death as right and moral and beneficial to all, and then try to pass them off as decisions that lead to life. This is where I get mad. And then they do to others what the church has always done to the world: they attempt to guilt, pressure, and remove the freedom of choice from everyone else. It’s insane.
This is why truth, understanding, wisdom and knowledge all are so important. Absent these things, (or in the presence of tyranny, authoritarian abuse, exploitation and manipulation) the truth is suppressed, twisted, misinterpreted, misapplied…and no wonder we have people making decisions that lead to death.
I see it that anytime the ability of man (or woman) is hindered in any way from apprehending the truth, be it external or internal, conscious or unconscious, then they are in trouble. They are in bondage. They are not free. Because…the truth sets us free.
Yes, Juli. You say it like I wanted to. “Woe to them who say bad is good and good is bad.” I feel a righteous anger rise up within me when I witness this.
gosh-I feel lightyears behind the conversation….wanted to apologize for opening up a techinchal discussion and then ditching for a few weeks.
Canary-
Sorry about your Brother in law-I’m glad (in a small sense), that he was able to pursue justice and prevailed.
I still haven’t read the Creighton piece so I’m gonna bow out on this topic until I’ve caught up on Professor John’s required reading list …
Greetings to all,
What a fun website!!! I haven’t been this excited to stumble upon a place that exhibits intelligent discussion. yeah!!
1. I am a huge Star Trek fan watched the first episode that aired back on Sept 8th 1966 (ok, so my age is at least discernable to be in a certain range) called Man Trap. I own all the movies with the exception of the one currently in theaters. I own all the episodes of every series including the animated series!!
2. found this site through a link from one of the SG get out of jail free (not intened to denigrate or slame, but how i feel since reading them, like i have been set free) websites.
3. Saw a link about Paul Balluff a man i actually have some knowledge of, but apprently not enough to know about his posting to this website. Please don’t flame me for knowing Paul we are very different individuals!!!
4. I believe the environment is a Christians responsibilty to steward. Can’t stand environmentalists who want to take us back to the dark ages. Ask new yorkers via time machine if they liked the millions of lbs per day of horse manure that had to be removed when everyone used horses!! the smell oh the smell. I wonder if there were those who wanted to get rid of horses because of the pollution!!
5. John Galt is an alias though people who know me well will be ble to get my true identity. So lurkers for SGM, please don’t turn me over to the submission police.
6. I am a current member of a SG church, but have been struggling for some time and lately have had my eyes opened. Log story, everyone has one.
7. Last but not least. I am a sinner saved by grace!! I love the Lord!! I like to consider myself a Berean. i don’t believe things just because someone teaches it from a public forum. confirmation from the Word of God and the holy Spirit is important to me. (end of disclosure)
I am sure that if i am welcomed here that i will say things to offend, i will say things that are stupid/ignorant/arrogant (this has been applied to me many times by many people through the years, the arrogant part!!) and occassional i might say something that has rational coherent thought as its foundation. Anyway, thanks for providing a forum such as this for the exchange of thoughts and ideas!!!.
John Gault… welcome…. we are not a thin skinned bunch here… so offense is no biggie.
There is no guilt by association here so who you know is not at issue. : )
Welcome to the Arena.
But I guess the question in the world of an0nymous blogging is…. “Who is John Gault?”
John G (oh no, two Johns, this could get interesting..hehe)
welcome…your comments were refreshing and quite encouraging..looking forward to hearing what you have to say and think, from the way you describe yourself you sound like my kind of people.
( just so you know I am the resident Star Trek Ignoramus by comparison to the many resident die-hard fans)
although I did finally go see the movie last weekend- it was excellent. And I think I caught most of the inside jokes, all of which gave me some great laughs. Never thought I would find the character of Spock quite so endearing.
Thank you for the welcome. John Immel I Just finished reading your 24 page explanation so i could get a little bit up to speed with what has been happeneing and went from there to Noel’s Story. Mine isn’t nearly as bad, but i can surely relate to all that I’ve read on this site and the other two sites. To say that I have been a part of assisting in the process of hurting others because they wouldn’t tow the line is a devastating confession, but more sad is the reason that became me was the fact that i so desperately wanted their approval. Now I just don’t care if i have hteir approval or not. i watched some real good friends of mine both couples both in some sort of leadership role be hounded because they disagreed with something that was said or done. I remember the last few times that i went to homegroup that the wife was taking notes about what we shared. a light went off in my head and later when talking to my wife I had asked her if she had noticed the same thing. When she said yes, she asked what was the purpose of the note taking. My reply gave me a shudder and a sinking feeling, they are reporting back to the pastors the things being said here, but not in a general sense they can give quotes and who said them. Now this can seem benign, but when put with all the other things I have seen and experienced firsthand I feel sick and saddened. maybe some day i will have the courage to state my real name and tell of all the things that i experienced, but it really is after all the same story others have said and in a much better way.
All of that to say thanks to your welcome. Pray for me and my wife as we deal with our current relationship with a SGM. Thanks to those who have had the courage to stand up and be counted, i hope to join you soon. What makes me sad is after relationships spanning decades that i would now be adrift, no that is not right, the Lord is my shepard not man!!! I have been set free!!! Thanks
P.S. Juli, i have always believed that one can jump into Star Trek anytime and enjoy the stories. The new film was a great film in which to become more interested!!
Yes John, Who is John Galt and why is his name whispered???
John G - yeah, everything from Ayn Rand to Star Trek to Jesus appearing in tortillas is discussed here…along with some really good commentary about the bigger, more serious picture. I’m sure you’ll enjoy reading along/commenting.
And I will be praying for you and your wife…you’re already counted among the free, you know
Why do men whisper about freedom? What tyranny is it that makes men shy to utter the words of liberty? Why do men shrink from those live voices who advocate the moral justification of freedom, but flock to those who condemn them with doctrines that source from the dead?
John Gault… you know… even for all of Paul’s and Paula’s rough and tumble comments … he/they were still welcome to comment.
The hard nature of the comments isn’t what brought it all to a close… it was the unwillingness to offer one shred of self awareness.
I don’t care that someone is confident in their ideas. I don’t care that they think their ideas superior… For all of that I think my ideas are superior… but being unable to take your own pulse to realize that you’ve perpetrated profound intellectual failings and not have the awareness or the intellectual honesty to own them … Nahh… don’t have any patience for that.
Hence the John Immel original… be ignorant if you must, be arrogant if you must, but don’t be arrogant and ignorant.
Anyway… this is the Arena of Ideas… offer your thoughts with passion and reason… it is all good.
You’ve all ready contributed good things in your short time here. Hope you stick around.
John,
Thank, i like to contribute something to any conversation that i happen to be involved. Sometimes i will listen for a whlie before i make a comment. having a place to go to work out my issues with reformed theology in general and SGM in particular is very refreshing.
The last few years have been spent in a lot of Bible reading and study. It is surprising to me the amount of things i had never been taught or exposed to in the teaching that was offered at my fellowship. I do not fault the leadership for this, it was my decision to let others take the role of teaching me instead of the Holy Spirit. Now that I’ve placed hearing from the Lord through his Word a priority on my life my eyes are opened to a lot of doctrines and issues that seem less to do with our victory and freedom in Christ and more to do with how i can serve the church. Not that i believe serving the church is a bad thing. One must come to terms with the definition of church!!! I believe in se3rving, but whom do i serve and whose pleasure.
Question: what happens when you stand before the Lord and he asks what you did with your talents?? Can you truly say that the fellowship i attended had me hide them or not let me use them. Ummm. I think that would be lame. I believe that one is personnaly resposible for developing your gifts that the Lord has given and to the extent a fellowship won’t allow that to happen then maybe it is time to find a different place to serve.
Hope the above makes sense. It did to me when i was writing it!! <GGG>
JohnG - this: I believe that one is personally responsible for developing your gifts that the Lord has given and to the extent a fellowship won’t allow that to happen then maybe it is time to find a different place to serve.
Hope the above makes sense. It did to me when i was writing it!!
made lots of sense, and was brilliant. so true. you have hit on something very few ever do - that of personal responsibility, which is of course grounded in so many other truths that, when those other truths suppressed or denied, limit this ability and responsibility we have as children of God.
Welcome, John Galt and hello to all you regulars!
John G said,
“To say that I have been a part of assisting in the process of hurting others because they wouldn’t tow the line is a devastating confession, but more sad is the reason that became me was the fact that i so desperately wanted their approval.”
Well John, many moons ago, I had to make those same devastating confessions, of assisting in the hurting process and desperately wanting those “bros” approval. I repented of first pride and then fear and tried to go back and make it right wherever possible. Like you, our experience was nowhere near the heartache and shock of Noel’s, but it was bad enough.
I also liked this comment:
I believe that one is personally responsible for developing your gifts that the Lord has given and to the extent a fellowship won’t allow that to happen then maybe it is time to find a different place to serve.
This is precisely why we left our last church (non SGM). My huband is a gifted musician, yet pastors tend to only view his gifting in the light of how he can best serve their vision for the weekly meeting. I don’t ever remember a pastor sitting down with my husband and asking him what the Lord had put in his heart regarding his giftings. So much of his time was required to fulfill the pastor’s vision that he didn’t have time to explore and be faithful to the unique ideas and ministries the Lord had hidden in his heart. Now he knows how to say NO. He has had the time to be attentive and faithful to what is in his heart. This has afforded him many other opportunities to serve the body of Christ in the larger sense and even the lost.
Hey Gracie…
Excellent comment. SGM is very good at feeding the people in the pews morsels of inclusion. It is a heady tonic to have El Primo Doctrinal Mover and Shaker CJ and sundry homies put their hand on your shoulder, look you deeeeeep in the eye and say “you belong … here!”
People long for that kind of affirmation. And they get a double dose because it is preached from the pulpit with relentless precision that you SHOULD want the affirmations of the Leadership because THEIR affirmation is the measure of your “authentic” Christian faith.
They dangle that carrot out and then doll out nibbles to the carrot. It is a powerful motivational manipulation. And it is a manipulation … of our personal insecurities.
It takes mucho effort to become secure in yourself, in the spiritual life God has birthed inside, and then translate that to action on behalf of your own vision. And when you are barraged with doctrines that tell you self motivation, any kind of ambition is a sin… most people do what your husband did… sit and wait and become a cog in the Spiritual Central planning machine of the People’s Republic of Heaven.
But this is disaster on so many levels. It is my observation that people suffer because most church leaders play at central planning and ultimately cause stunning amounts of passivity, and inert humanity. So people are not free to go be great at what they were built to be great at.
What would the body of Christ look like if people were free to persist in partnership with other gifts and no one had to ask human permission to go act as the Spirit willed?
John, you asked: What would the body of Christ look like if people were free to persist in partnership with other gifts and no one had to ask human permission to go act as the Spirit willed?
well, nothing like I’ve ever seen. Some ministries and churches might hint at this, but someone, somewhere eventually steps in to bring “order” (quench) the charismatic chaos as they call it…
yeah…revealing that Johnny Mac’s church looks NOTHING like this, and neither do SGM churches…go figure. I’ve experienced more freedom and power outside of church than I ever did inside. Of course they all think I’m backslidden…but whatever
Gracie- Thanks for the welcome
Julie- Thanks for your comments on personal responsibility.
John I- It is part and parcel of the desire to have a cheerfully and immediately obedient congregation that they must control ones giftings. After all if you “stand in the stead of God” aren’t you better equipped to know what someone’s gifts are and how they are to be utilized. Independent thought is not allowed. Wait didn’t we just have a July 4th celebration which is all about escaping religious and governmental tyranny???
BTW, would Phillip have needed permission to talk to the guy in the chariot and would the aspotolic team approved of his being immediatly translated to another location to preach the Gospel or would the Lord have had to seek out their personl permission. Can’t have somebody off doing something by themselves.
Just wanted to let you guys know that on SGmRefugee and Survivor where i origianlly started posting last week my moniker is Homeless???. I guess I should have stayed unified but when i made my way to this website John Galt seemed more appropriate. So I guess i should have the same moniker throughout the websites. Any preferences?? Actually I may be changing over to my real name shortly because of a meeting that i am having Wednesday. It may or may not be related to my posting to these websites, but the person coming to meet with me gets my Covenant Eyes reports so he is going to know that i have been here. Please pray for me and my wife as we walk through the issues we are facing.
BTW, this past Sunday’s message was all about your inheritance in Christ and how you should be living in the fulness of that understanding. I was stunned!! When they have it up i will send you a link. This was in part because they couldn’t ignore what the Scripture says in Hebrews (they ahve been going through the book of Hebrews), but where have been these kind of messages before and is this part of a change. Dare i hope??? Don’t think i can continue to wait.
Also, stayed up to 4am this morning reading the three part transcription of the Counseling teaching at the pastors (SGM) conference earlier this tear. While reading i kept saying to myself, “are you kidding me?”. I can’t tell you how much this goes to explaining the treatment i have recieved through the years and others who have come to me crying on my shoulder wondering what they did wrong!!
Well, i am off to actually get some work done. Love you guys!!!!
If you like John Williams music then go to the following link and enjoy the experience!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk5_OSsawz4
John Galt,
I like this name better than homeless..my vote is keep using this one….and it does fit it well here
so did they just call you in randomly for a meeting without telling you what it was about?? that is odd. Make sure you record the meeting. They just LOVE that. heheh
seriously…will be praying for you and your wife. don’t go alone. have a witness. many many others who have been in such meetings (if it is in fact about the blogs) would advise the same to you.
blessings…
btw John G - that link on you tube was HILARIOUS! man I wish I had that kind of talent! What a great laugh…I needed that! Thanks!
Hi JG/Homeless! Welcome!
I’ve read your posts over on the other blogs - glad to see you over here, too! I don’t post here (or on the other blogs as much as I used to, but I’m always reading.)
You are quite brave to be doing the Covenant Eyes thing and visiting the blogs at the same time! I’ll also pray for you guys on Wednesday.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Juli-I am glad you liked the video. Just wanted to inject some fun into a serious discussion.
As afar as the meeting: some background, this is one of my best friends. Up until March he and his wife had been my HG leaders. Recently he had called to get together to see how i was doing on several fronts. Kind of an extension of our accountablilty together, but at the time I had a lot going on and was preparing for an out of town trip. I believe on Thursday i or Wednesday of last week I had called him because i needed help moving some furniture. By the time he called me back i had made other arrangements and we talked about getting together Friday morning. I think it may have been Wednesday of last week that i started visiting and posting to these blogs. We set up the meeting for this Wednesday (just him) and at first i wasn’t thinking much of it. but then when i realized that he would have a Covenant Eyes report before our meeting that it would come up as a topic. I know that it will eventually because we had another couple drop out of our fellowship and our HG and there was speculation that he had been reading the blogs. Well reading them can be a serious eye opener!! anyway i don’t know what to expect ,but i want to be prepared for any topic that may come up. thanks for your prayers.
Yeah, i like John Galt as well!!! When i was on the other sites first i was just visiting with no intention of hanging around. When i came to this blog that moniker just didn’t fit. I knew i would enjoy exchanging thoughts with you guys.
BTW, i had that thought if the pastors call me in that i would take a recording device so thanks for the confirmation.
Ellie-Thanks for the welcome and your prayers.
Great link! John Williams is indeed the man…
Dan- I have liked John williams music all the way back to the Lost in Space TV show!!
Good morning everyone. I just visited a blog of a friend of mine for the first time. He just completed Pastors College. I couldn’t recognize the picture. Why you ask??? I am glad you did. he has shaved his head bald!!! What do they put in the water at CLC???
Lost in Space — now that brings me back! I remember getting the soundtrack to Star Wars — it was fantastic music. Same with the Superman theme.
Dan-When i first heard the Superman theme i wanted to fly!!! Of course the very famous Jaws made me afraid of the beach. Listening to his music from his early years to Schindlers List and you realize what a great talent he is to music lovers everywhere!! IMHO!!
John G - yeah, recording devices are fun, just ask John I
can you enlighten me as to what Covenant Eyes is exactly? I have a fair guess by virtue of context, but for the record, what is that exactly?
As for the Superman theme…my son and I have this CD with that on it. One day we were listening to it in the car, blasting it rather loudly. It was almost sunset, and the big Texas sky was brilliant with colors, clouds opening up, rays of light streaming down in amazing manner, etc…I had the thought: “I wonder what song will be playing when Jesus comes back? Beause this one would certainly be appropriate!” It made me want to fly too.
Dan- covenant Eyes is a software program that monitors the websites you visit. That report can then be sent to several people to review to see if you are visiting sites that are inappropriate–read that as primarily pornagraphic sites. I know that i really struggled with this issue and was rtrying to find a solution and this was suggested. It has worked great for me. many times i have asked myself why i couldn’t have the victory directly through my relationship with Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit in me. what i do know is that using this program to help me overcome the temptation has lead me to the place where i generally don’t think about it at all. I could probably take the training wheels off so to speak and continue riding the internet free of the fear of themptation. anyway, the friend who is coming over gets my report. It is every week at the beginning of the week.
Looking forward to meeting Christ face to face.
Man, that is scary. That is way too Big Brother for me. Good luck to you John G.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tgkyUi6Xmk&feature=related
Covenant Eyes..oh my.
yeah..I don’t have that program fortunately. And yeah, it is likely to come up in your meeting as you said. I can’t imagine that they could justify being on one of these blogs as the equivalent to porn sites (or as being as destructive to you spiritually) but I’m sure they will make every attempt to make that case.
hm..truth certainly does affect people in strange ways.
Dan and Juli, the program has been very helpful for me, but in this instant, well, we shall see tomorrow morning.
Loved the tribute. The following is for a link for another tribute for Christopher Reeve as superman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Vem-BQhLY&feature=PlayList&p=C872DE6D9288B95E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13
JohnG - I guess you can expect they will ask you if you are recording the meeting since they likely know you read here, and have read our conversations about this…you know, SGM tactics and control remind me of FBI monitoring…both organizations use our “own good” as their oft-cited justification for the invasion of personal privacy/sovereignty. ick.
Definitely feel the Lord is preparing me for a fight for freedom. I was talking to a gentlemen earlier today who said i will be amazed a few months from now if i breakaway from SGM how few friends i really have and the recognization of all the ways my mind has been psychologically manipulated. Interesting.
John G… I can tell you this… once a person begins to grasp how they integrate ideas; it becomes very easy to understand why bondage exists and what the path of true liberty is.
It is the specific integrated ideas that SGM tends to propagate that leads people to believe they can not grow in moral development, that they are victims of a nature they can never surpass and are endlessly needy of environmental forces to keep them from sinning.
And in all instances that environmental force is pastoral or church leadership pressure, as if the opinions of men are more motivational than the opinions of God. (How can that really be?)
As I have said in another place the disease affirms the cure and the cure necessitates the disease. Under this body of assumption there is never any place of moral strength. This is the worst of all worlds… a mix of despair, fueled by inability, enabled by co-dependant cultural expectations, mandated by “doctrine.” The result is what I call spiritual crack—a substance insidiously affective at creating a vicious cycle of greater and greater spiritual and moral atrophy that only ends up one place: dependence
I don’t accept these premise. Holiness is not the absence of temptation but the power to remain unchanged in the face of temptation. The disintegration of man (his death) is directly related to his inability to integrate his ethical knowledge with his ethical action. This is exactly the conflict that Paul pointed to in Romans 7 and it is this conflict that Paul identified as “this Body of Death.”
We have misunderstood much of Paul’s over arching arguments because his words became hijacked by a historical synthesis some 1600 years in the future and subsequent generations have been spoon fed that synthesis. But the solution to “the body of death” is the effective integration of man’s ethical knowledge and his ethical action. That integration occurs in Jesus. And since Jesus is truth and truth is Jesus the integration is the power of the truth—all it’s dynamic tensions to balance human action and understanding. This integration is philosophy: the power to integrate ideas, values, and actions in one body with appetites and drives.
Once I began to understand how things integrated, how I was designed to integrate and how the Anointed Jesus worked in me to eradicate guilt, and the consciousness of sin, abandoning death driven action (aka sin) has become substantially simpler, and lasting. That is because the power of the truth informs the drives and wants—these are sources from within. That way a person is not at mercy of those forces from without.
What your friend said is so very true … Freedom is coming because truth MAKES you free… from the INSIDE … OUT.
John
I was struck by the comment “the disease affirms the cure and the cure necessitates the disease.” when i studied physics that would be known as a feedback loop. Just an endless cycle that has to be interrupted by an outside applied force or turning off the access to power!!
I guess i am in the process of leaving the loop. It is interesting that Jesus came to set us free, but those who want to sheperd us want to keep us in chains. Oh you won’t see them, but they are there nevertheless. I know because of the tremendous weight lifted off my life the last seven days.
In Christ Alone!!!
JOhn G-
I’ll be praying for your meeting…I don’t miss the days of trying to explain myself to people I loved but who wanted to pretend that the truth was something to be feared and ignored, instead of cherished and explored…
I hope it goes well
peace-mm
Musical note-feedback loops are great for electric guitar solos….
MM- thanks for your prayers. As for the feedback. doesn’t that use presume you know what you are doing???
Guitar! Feedback! For those about to Rock… Salute!
Hello everyone,
Hello everyone!
My meeting ended a few minutes ago. It went very well. My friend was very gracious and undestanding. he challenged me to talk to the leadership before i leave the fellowship, but told him they haven’t listened so far why would they listen to me?? We discussed some of the issues and he was heart broken over some of my stories. Then we talked about a mutual issue that we have with SGM.
He did ask if i wanted to leave and i said no, but can’t stay under current circumstances. he wanted to know if i had a new fellowship to attend which i don’t. I said i was reluctant to put myself in a position of being bound up again. he did note that i wasn’t angry and that i wanted to still serve the Lord somehow, someway, somewhere (isn’t that in a song??). I told him that i was visiting these blogs and he already knew that and didn’t care all that much. We ended up praying together and parted as friends!! You know if all SGM leadership behaved as he did i don’t think there we be as many problems as currently exist. Thanks for all your prayers. We shall see what the next stage brings. don’t know if i will be contacted by the leadership team or not at this point, but will keep you posted if they ask for a meeting so you guys can pray.
Thanks again!!!
It is good that your conversation went well. I had similar conversations… in many respects my friends encouraged me to leave. I was a Deleterious Problem Child after all. LOL
But I will say the issues do not usually stem from the friends… it usually comes from the “exit” meetings where the accusations and intellectual bullying starts.
Don’t let them browbeat you with the whole: “but you don’t have any place to go to church,” thing. What you do with Sunday is your business … not theirs. If you are in fact leaving the group … State the outcome and leave it at that. Make no effort to justify the choice… that usually drives them crazy but gives them no way to get up underneath and pry into your life.
Remember, it is there affirmation that they leverage.
John, Thanks for the advice. I told my friend that i wasn’t really interested in talking to the leadership. Since the meeting this morning my wife and i have made the decision to leave SGM and the local representation. If they ask for an exit interview i will pray and ask the Lord if He wants me to go and i will obey that decision. Anyway, i am now offically a refugee.
JohnG - glad your meeting with your friend went so well. refugees are free. remember that. and you really are at home wherever you are because of the anointing you have as a believer. specific circumstances don’t have much bearing on it. it is a reality, that is not dependent on anything but faith/grace.
John G-
Really glad that your meeting went well…I hope it continiues to go smooth as you express your decision to others.
As for feedback-yeah-it helps to know what you’re doing with a guitar before messing with dueling magnetic fields….:)
peace to you-mm
JG,
glad your meeting with your friend went well. Maybe the Lord will use you to wake him up.
You are embarking on a strange but exciting journey. One that will be hard and sad at times as you grieve what you thought was real, but most rewarding as the Lord guides you into true community with a whole world of brothers and sisters - learning to trust in Jesus alone and re-discovering your first Love.
Juli,MM, and Ellie, Thank you for your encouragement and for all the others who read this blog that have been praying for me and my wife we really appreciate the love and concern that you have demonstrated through Christ for our journey.
I did recieve an email from one of the pastor’s through his secretary requesting a meeting with me alone not including my wife. I respectfully declined.
So, it begins…..
Ah yes… the meeting without the wife…the beginning of divide and conquer!
And if you do end up taking her … LOL it won’t matter what books she’s read or how smart she is… estrogen makes her theologically deficient.
John, Not my wife and this they know. She is probably more knowledgeable about Scripture than i am and i am pretty good!!! No pride intended just aware of our ablilties.
Not sure what i will do with the second request which i am sure is on its way in some form or another!!
yeah… that is what I meant. She can be brilliant and her comments will be dismissed out of hand. They might pay lip service to her in some way, but if she sides with you over them in any bible concept that they consider themselves superior. Piffle… estrogen is the deciding factor.
If you haven’t yet… read Out Liars and Data sets… I talk about this phenomena in that article.
Maybe it won’t matter… this all is predicated on you having a sit down. Maybe you won’t do that. >shrug<
John, If that is the attitude they take with my wife then wedge grows wider. Her advice and counsel mean the world to me, she has been a great partner in my walk with God. So if this is going to be standard operating procedure, well, i won’t submit to it. BTW, where’s my recording device???
To be honest John, neither myself nor my wife are inclined to have a “sit down” with the pastors. As far as we are concerned the Lord said we could leave, we are leaving and we don’t need the permission of any man no matter how well meaning he believes he is to tell me how to obey the Lord.
well… then you are a rare man. Most men I knew wanted the affirmations of leadership more than the affirmations of their wife. Their wives were “theologically deficient” after all. And since these gutless wonders were also theologically deficient and part of the 2 inch club… they linked arms with like minded theological misogynists who boasted great theological knowledge and profound manhood.
Man love is such a powerful force.
>snicker<
But hey… it is all moot… If God is telling you to hit the road… then start humming the tune and don’t cha look back no more, no more, no more!
LOL
John,
It is written earlier in this blog that it was important to me to have their approval. More so than the Lord’s. During my struggle i was a part of the 2 inch club as you call it and it hindered my ability to see the truth. What is funny for all the years that they recommended that i have a daily devotion and quiet time, who knew that would be the reason my eyes are open now and that i can say with full confidence: He whom the Son sets free is free indeed!!!!
John,
Just finished reading Out Liars and Data Sets. Great article. I do enjoy your sense of humor!!!
I guess my experiment is started and I believe we qualify on Q3. It will be hard for the pastors to explain why we left and since i have been involved for decades my absence will eventually be noticed(?). Well, maybe it will be noticed. Thanks for providing a place for intectual discussion. I so enjoy communicating with people who have some ability to think. I am glad the Lord is restoring my ability to think. Think is fortunately not a four letter word!!!!
JohnG…to hear a man praise his wife’s ability to help him and ability and willingness to offer godly counsel and then call her his PARTNER?? You are a rare man indeed. And she is a blessed woman! And also a rare woman in SGM…
SGM’s divide and conquer methodology with regard to marriages, as John described, is truly wicked in my opinion…I saw them try to employ this with some friends of mine and it thankfully did not work..but they had already suceeded in doing so with some other seemingly intelligent women.
Thinking women who laid down their minds and were reduced to baby-making machines who could only think domestic thoughts, swap recipes, and talk about their children and husbands…and their idiotic husbands who could never think for themlseves in the first place suddenly put on a false sense of leadership that was unearned and undeserved….all the while never aquiring ANYTHING in terms of skills, abilities, character, knowledge,widsom or understanding..simply because the Bible says so (that they are the leader), so he makes no effort to better himself as a man, husband or father - it is simply “I am man, hear me roar! Submit to me wife of mine because I said so, because God says so and so does the pastor!” And we are all to fall down trembling at this powerful display of testosterone…when in reality, it makes me just think: yeah, another zealous member of the 2 inch club who doesn’t have a clue.
blech. I admire and respect the man who achieved his greatness, character and sense of self by God’s grace, and through intentional faith….by being the man God made him to be, not the man someone else tells him he is supposed to be.
yeah…not inviting your wife to the meeting is an outright insult to you, her, and your marriage. I’m glad you declined.
hey John, what’s up with the lack of spacing between paragraphs all of a sudden? All my sentences are run ons….and look like I am imitating William Faulkner’s infamously long and irritating paragraphs
it’s visually off, so don’t tease me…just wondering why if I hit return it doesn’t put a space there anymore…maybe I need to hit return twice?
ok..that was it…I need to hit return two times…never mind. problem solved.
no actually I did some updates to my blog and I think it whacked some of the settings. I just noticed this today… gotta figure yet another tech thing out. Dang those IT guys!
yeah..IT guys are such nerds. and they never get anything done in a timely manner…
Juli,
Thank you for your encouragement about my relationship with my wife and the way we walk out our relationship in the Lord together. One of the things that i try to keep in the back of my mind is that she is first and foremost a daughter of the most high God and a gift that he gave me to enjoy. She is not an object that gives me permission to own or control, but a precious sister in the Christ that The Lord has allowed me the privilege to to live with and cherish. do i supply leadership?? Sure. Is it a heavy handed do what i tell you to do style of leadership? Never. Besides my wife wouldn’t stand for me to totally ignore her insights and giftings in Christ and nor would i want to do so. I love talking with her and getting her input. she has kept me from making some bad decisions, but she was able to do that because we make no life-changing decison without the input of the other spouse. The only thing is that ultimately for our marraige the final decision is mine, but she has the full confidence that i will listen to her and will ultimately act in the best interest of our marraige. She is kind enough to allow me to perform that role without huge resistance, on the other hand it has been incumbent upon me to go to her and admit when i have been wrong and she was right. After all we are in this together and it only works if we are living in this matter. Case in point: the decision to leave the fellowship needed to be a mutual one. thankfully it is. We will at some point start the process of searching for another fellowship. In this regard she has already proven invaluable because of a recommendation she made that would have never occurred to me!!! Make no mistake, i love my wife and am glad that our friendship in Christ is something we both enjoy!!!
You said…
“yeah…not inviting your wife to the meeting is an outright insult to you, her, and your marriage. I’m glad you declined.”
That was sort of the way we interpreted the invite. It was like an assumption was made that she was not part of the decision making process!!!
Hello everyone. John G, I wonder if your in my sphere. Buddy Run, and don’t look back. Freedom is sweet it has come at a great price. My friend also just graduated and is a baldy, his blog is cultish, and his wife and children just need sprinkles and icing because they are cookie cut Sovereig Gracers. I only know Paul B through someone, tho I have seen his face on facebook and laughed about where he is pee ing lately…
I really wanted to say Hi though to John Im..Man you have got to be my brother from another mother. When I read your stuff I cry hard, print it out and take it into counseling. You have defended me when you write and you never knew how vulnerable I really was, you give me courage when I read, and you don’t know how really scared I am. John Im…you make me laugh really hard, and the confusion some how clears a little. You are precise, your bold, and sometimes hard to understand, but yet you cover over what has happened and help me to grasp that I can uniquely be myself and think for my self and not let the religious idols walk over me again, not one step more.
My Portion in Sovereign grace Ministries was hell. Betrayed, mocked and cast aside, for looking outside the mire and saying…this is not right. But John, MY voice didn’t count, only those who worship CJ and the likes can stay. Apparent strong men of God, lying, glossing over the truth, It really feels like a dream. What just happened..
John Im…the monkey poem is whatever.. I think you are a genious. Thank you
Hope Deferred,
Welcome to the site if you have not been here in the past. Maybe the same place not just sphere??? Thanks for the encouragement to run. Running has certain meanings attached to the behaviour. Just so we are clear, I am not running away from as much as i am running towards a better and freer life in Christ!!
I agree with you about John Im. Got to be careful we don’t want to lift him up higher like those who do CJ and SGM, though i understand he wants to rule the world!!
The difference betwixed me and they is ya’ll don’t have to say things nice about me. It seems like you MUST say ONLY good things about them.
So please … these words are great for me ego! Don’t stop now! LOL.
And as for ruling the world… I have zeal and concern…. I am utterly qualified Buwwwahahahahahahaah
Uh …
Errrr..
Ehem…
John, It is refreshing to communicate with someone who doesn’t take himself to seriously. Right?
Hope Deferred….
Thank you for your very kind words.
Right now I suspect it feels like someone kicked you hard and all the life has been sucked out your spine. You alternate between despair and the endless yammering of all the pastoral words in your head. It seems like you can not get away from the WAY they talked about God. Comfort seems to elude you. And no path seems evident.
Not sure at what point you picked up reading but brows the earlier posts… I laid a lot of ground work. And more is coming. Much more. Soon to debut mp3’s which will give a greater ability to lay out more complex thoughts. (not to be confused with hard to understand.) so many things are tied together in all this… lots to unravel. It takes a while.
I will tell you this… it does get better. It really does.
Soon you will be able to call yourself Hope Present.
Be Blessed, Be Free, Be Whole
John
Right! the ideas speak for themselves. and I speak for myself. LOL. I’m just an ornery soul looking for love!
I’m amusing myself way to much at the moment … don’t mind me.
Heading to the comedy club tonight…. Gonna giggle buches.
Peace out!
Hope Present (not deferred, I’m believing this for you now)
welcome…and so glad you are reading along. The truth is powerful, isn’t it? Amazing how someone you have never met (in this case John) can speak words that divide, what is it..to the marrow?? Yeah…it’s the nature of the word spoken, or in this case..written. I hope you find a place of rest and encouragement…this is the Arena of Ideas..and nobody says you can’t have a bit of fun while you’re at it
good to have you here.
John Galt -
your marriage sounds awesome. I’m very impressed you two managed to pull that off in an SGM environment…yeah, I bet your wife wasn’t too popular with the Stepford Wives. But she sounds like many of the other wonderful women who comment here (Canary, Gracie and Ellie to name a few) tell her to stop on by sometime and say hello!
Hey, where is everybody?? :}
I’m working on taking over the world… so I a touch busy. But I promise … more fun an frolick coming soon.
Greetings Everyone,
My wife and i have been busy, so i haven’t been into posting any comments.
Since my last visit to this site we have been challenged by my best friend that we must be angry or bitter or don’t become angry or bitter because we are leaving our fellowship. Also, he speculated that i might be hiding something since i had no desire to talk to leadership. I challenged those thoughts back and forth by email and he relented and accepted that we have heard from the Lord and we are happy so he is fine.
Also, met and talked with one of the pastors for 3.5 hours. it was interesting and very hard for both of us. harder for him i think ’cause the things i shared are difficullt to swallow. I didn’t pull any punches. I am waiting to see what comes next.
My wife and I went to a new fellowship this past Sunday and it was wonderful!!! I can’t even begin to describe all the great things we experienced at that meeting. It was refreshing and i left that meeting encouraged in my relationship with the Lord and wanting to share the Gospel again!!!!
JohnGalt, you’re the man. I wish more were like you, unflinching, equipped, knowledgeable and bold in their exits out from under all forms of tyranny.
most of the time people limp away so scared and so hurt they can’t even get a grip on their emotions, much less their thoughts. I was one of those when I left SGM. I am SO encouraged you and your wife are not. I know in part that has to do with the vast amounts of information and equipping on this blog and others. Amazing what the truth does, huh? Setting us free. Empowering us. Awesome stuff.
so glad to hear your progress and your praise report.
Ellie - I’ve been busy as well…just not taking over the world like John..hehe…just lots of things going on, mostly good stuff. I hope you are doing well!