I”m sitting in my living room hanging out with friends, cracking jokes, talking about ideas, barbequing tyrants, on occasion sharing struggles, pains and turmoils about life’s pressures and experiences.
Some newcomers join the conversation adding their 38 cents worth. They don’t agree. They say so. No biggie. This is the Arena of Ideas where it is more rough-and-tumble than other living rooms. Someone might hand me my ass in my living room, but hey, I’m a big boy, I can handle that. They are still welcome.
The other people with me understand this living room is a bit different, because I have said so, and they seemed to listen when I said so. We talk about cause and effect. We talk about why and wherefore. We advocate reason, and the tools of thought, and how spirituality fits into that dynamic; and we set out to know Truth. We try on ideas like some people try on clothes: abandon the bad and keep looking for the good. Maybe there is ideological consensus, maybe there is not, but it doesn’t matter because a hive mind is not the goal. It makes for an interesting conversation. And it helps people move from fear to confidence as they master tools and exercise their mind.
The newcomers are over, messing around by the curtains but what they are doing isn’t obvious.
The new comers make some more criticisms about the conversation, but curiously it is about HOW we are having the conversation, not WHAT the conversation is about. When asked to expand, explain or validate their reason, they are unable or unwilling to respond. Indeed, they seem to possess no ability to make simple but essential distinctions or follow a progression of thought. When this is pointed out, they are belligerent, vacant, or silent.
They mess around by the drapes again and what they are doing still isn’t clear.
A smell lingers in my living room. But where it is coming from, and the nature of its source isn’t clear.
They disappear for a while and when they return they are full of recrimination. The accusations are curious: a small amount of effort could clarify. Indeed, when the clarifying information is provided, they offer apologies.
And then curiosity of curiosities, they use my living room to justify themselves for their conduct in someone else’s living room.
Something is rotten in Denmark. And now I realize that the stench has been here for a while. I check the drapes and sure enough…someone has taken a leak.
Now I’m pissed…
You know… I can tolerate quite a lot. I let a lot happen in my living room. The Arena of Ideas has an implied philosophical premise embedded in the metaphor: anything goes…mostly. I advocate that people should equip themselves to engage the arena because I am not a filter for other people’s minds. The arena is a dangerous place, and I don’t pretend otherwise. No protection exists in the arena but preparation. People live in the arena whether they know it or not, so my battle cry is caveat emptor.
Getting out from underneath Spiritual Tyranny REQUIRES knowing what ideas you bought. It REQUIRES knowing who the seller is and his reason for commerce. It REQUIRES understanding the outcomes. From this understanding it is very easy to take your own pulse: to understand the source of your fears, anxieties, and doubts. From this point you can get healthy.
But I digress…
Someone made a mess in my living room and I need to figure out how to handle it.
The knee jerk reaction is to press the ban button: and then offer no explanation nor comment. And that is exactly what a few other people privately have advocated. Banning those who make a mess would be easy, and perfectly justified. I’m a blog Tyrant. I can do what I want.
But….
I realize something important is happening here: a series of teachable moments. And not least of which I want to make it very clear the lengths I will go to clean up the mess in my living room. I want folks to understand, how serious I take it when people who are guests try to manipulate, belligerate, and fraudulate. (Yes, I made those words up.)
So with that in mind, here are some teachable moments.
Teachable Moment 1:
Let me be abundantly clear. You have the right to speak. I will take up arms for your right to speak your mind in the public square and to erect whatever apparatus you need to carry your own voice. But you DO NOT have the right to be heard. And you have no moral claim to the apparatus that I, or anyone else, creates to carry their voice to the public square.
There is a bizarre non-sequitur being trotted out by SGM advocates. Because blogs like this and Survivors, and Refuge are directly criticizing SGM authoritarianism, we have forfeited the right to draw standards about what is said by whom. The logic being advocated is: by enforcing standards, we are executing the same authoritarianism. This is absurd. No one on any blog (that I have read) is advocating SGM MUST open their church microphones to any and all comers. No one is defining SGM authoritarianism as a monopoly on the SGM communication apparatus. We are not advocating a spiritual “Fairness Doctrine.” They built it. It is theirs. I will take up arms to defend their right to speak into the public square.
However, once they get to the public square–i.e. books, tapes, blogs, email distribution, Sunday sermons–I will bring every resource to bear to address the failures and errors of those ideas, spotlighting the outcome and results of their practice.
So, now drawing this back to this blog: If I decide I don’t like what you are saying for whatever reason, it sucks to be you. Go build your own blog and rail about my perceived injustice if you like. (Some have already done that and I wish them success.) Build a radio station and take the editorial into the public square. Build a building and buy a Plexiglas podium and say what you like. I will grab my nuclear weapons to defend your right to do that very thing, but I didn’t build this platform for your good pleasure. I built spiritualtyranny.com for mine. In this I am an unapologetic blog Tyrant.
Teachable Moment 2:
Get Over it. Beyond the absurd assertion of Dr. Laura being theologian extraordinaire I want to point a few things out.
Let me talk about me for a minute. Since I don’t do that very often, this will be fun. People continue to make the inane accusation that my commentary is nothing more than venom from a bitter, tormented, deranged soul.
>sigh<
If you can read my commentary and honestly reduce its content to such triviality, then I suspect you are a half an inch from arguing for a flat earth. This simple-mindedness is not hidden behind the volumes of high school Carl Jung you apply to writing analysis. I am tired of suffering this foolishness. Either offer a critique of the ideas, wage a counterargument (assuming you know what that is), or would you kindly go do something else with your time.
Don’t bother to breathe all manner of sanctimony at me about compassion. It will be useless to rail at me about the treatment of guests. I have been called worse by much better. Getting indignant when I call you out for peeing on my floor will not faze me one inch.
I am not here to win friends or create a following. (Though people do seem to follow my ideas and the readership is immensely gratifying.) I am in the arena of ideas for the express purpose of destroying the philosophical and intellectual assumptions that ALWAYS destroy people’s lives. If you happen to hold those ideas… then my argument is aimed at your head: duck, change your mind, or offer a better argument.
Now, let me talk about other people: How is it that pro SGM people are consistently impatient with hurting people? What is it about that environment that produces such profound intolerance? What is embedded in the philosophical assumptions of “this bunch” that makes them almost universally indifferent to the pain people have suffered? And the pain those people have suffered is universally identified being from the SGM leadership.
Here is the OBVIOUS question: Why do so many people have something they need to GET OVER with SGM?
I will let your lightning-fast minds ponder.
Teachable Moment 3:
Theme: Sarcasm bad. Ergo, people don’t listen.
We end up dancing around this mulberry bush with regularity because I’m King of Snark.
(That is what I will call my kingdom when I rule the world. Earth will be renamed: Snark! I have zeal and concern, so it will happen.)
With regularity, people get sucked down the path trying to justify or validate or mitigate someone else’s sensibilities.
Dale Carnegie wrote a pretty good book, if you like to schmooze. But his advice is not how to REALY influence people. If someone is justified in disregarding words merely because they don’t care for the presentation…the disaster begins. I am going to continue my advocacy that being preoccupied with a METHOD of expression when discussing SGM (or in any conflict) is a disastrous standard.
Method and Manner is the SGM Get-Out-Of-Jail free card. By conceding the premise that a method of expression is somehow more righteous, more Christian, people concede the authority to define that expression. Every subsequent conversation becomes about how well one emulates the proscribed methodology. This is how SGM preempt EVER having to respond to conflict specifics.
Furthermore, this is also how SGM defenders evade having to answer the specifics of a counterargument. The moment they deem the method of expression invalid, they consider the ideas behind them irrelevant. With this Method and Manner magic wand, they make all objections to their actions, conduct, and doctrines disappear.
Truth is truth no matter who speaks. The idea that Truth must cater to sensibilities for validation is beyond ridiculous.
For all the advocacy of being Peacemakers, we have lost sight of the fact that Jesus said he came to bring a sword. Truth divides. Truth says one thing is right and one thing is wrong. Maybe someone needs to write a book called Sword Makers.
Teachable Moment 4:
The Virtue and Vice of Blog Anonymity. A sub-theme denigration is that since blogging is anonymous, criticism offered on blogs is invalid.
Think a moment. By this definition, Newspapers should be roundly condemned. How many columnists in those good old fashioned papers have you met and looked into their face as they railed out some Op-Ed or Letter to the Editor? If you haven’t met them, then by definition they are anonymous. How many news anchors have changed their name to a better stage name, or to protect their family from the pressures of notoriety? By definition, this is a public persona, not the REAL person. By the advocated definition, they should be run out of reporting post haste.
Don’t fall for this, Dear Readers. Don’t even bother to argue the point. This is a non-logic that presupposes people are only truthful in person. This is absurd. People lie for all sorts of reasons, in all sorts of venues, with all sorts of sensory perception engaged to ferret out the truth.
Blogging is no more or no less truthful than any other form of mass communication. NO ONE on the Internet is advocating that communication via Cyberspace has more veracity than any other medium. But with regularity, critics of cyberspace content rail against the means to avoid the substance.
The brilliance of the World Wide Web is that it is unfiltered. It pays people the compliment of believing they can arrive at the truth, because the information is available for them: all they have to do is seek, ask, and knock.
Unfiltered: This is an important word. The reason that stories have finally emerged about Sovereign Grace Ministries’ conduct and practice is because the Internet has let a LOT of people compare notes.
And it is time for those of us addressing the issues of Spiritual Tyranny to unify our voice against the implicit evasion anti-blogging critics commit. They evade the very obvious question: Why do so MANY people feel the need to make their comments from behind anonymity?
How is it that SGM advocates fail to see the stunning implication?
Teachable Moment 5:
Theme: we are all just sinners in a sinful world.
I am going to keep saying this until everyone agrees with me. The soil that grows moral relativism is richly seeded with the notion that all failed human action is sin of equal consequence. This is the flip side of there is no morality: anyone can do what they want.
Since Augustine formalized the concept of “I’m a dirty rotten sinner,” Christianity has become ever more schizophrenic in its railing about sin. We will shout from the house tops, “Sinners go to Hell, so Don’t sin, Don’t sin, Don’t sin,” and in the next breath say, “But I can’t help it if I do.”
Jesus’ teachings about forgiveness have been highjacked to mean no matter what anyone does, they should never be judged for their actions. The ultimate consequence of our schizophrenia is we have eradicated the idea of moral growth and provided people with a Moral Blank Check to be cashed against the FFHI (Forced Forgiveness Heaven Insurance) account. But Heaven doesn’t really cash these checks. People on Earth are compelled to provide the moral absolution of anyone who demands an ethical pass. It matters not what the offender has done, the offendee has a moral obligation to forgive, which really ends up meaning they can make no judgment, condemnation, or relational demand. It matters not if the offender identifies his own error, takes action to address the error, or seeks to make restitution.
Blithely wave the magic wand of “We are all just sinners,” and immediately the scope or depth of atrocity gets swept into the demand: forgive, forgive, and forgive. This is moral relativism on parade. This is the destruction of values and proportion and justice. And make no mistake, this is NOT a Bible standard.
So, let me draw my comments to the specific instance that is behind this post. Over the last few weeks, two personas, Paul Balluff and Me Love You For Long Time, have been commenting on various posts: Who’s your Daddy and Reform or Not to Reform among others. They are SGM advocates and have voiced the same criticisms of this blog and others since time immemorial: fine and all right.
Whatever…
Here is what is not fine and all right.
Paul Balluff uses private communication between me and him in an effort to illustrate what he considered to be a lack of compassion of moi. (Remember I told you it was open season.) He wanted to tattle to the world that I’m not a nice guy. I’m not. Mystery solved.
I accept the unstated understanding that private communication between blog hosts and folks that email remains private. I understand and in principle affirm the social convention. To that end, I will protect those who contact me: and many do.
But I will not be manipulated or handcuffed by a misplaced sense of loyalty or propriety to people who have no interest in loyalty or propriety. When people seek to use my good nature against me by exposing private communication to misrepresent me or the content of my thoughts, I declare open season.
Furthermore, and more important, when people lie to me about themselves to perpetrate fraud, and manipulate my reaction, and the reaction of others…the record will be set straight.
Paul Balluff accused me of being an anonymous Blogger. This is, of course, a detail easily proved untrue by asking the very leadership he is defending if they know me. He accuses me of taking his identity to manufacture…something…In a comment on April 25, Paul Balluff says I’m a “Scary Character” because I used his name to say things he didn’t say.
He insists that his identity has been stolen. He insists that he did not write those words. Paul Balluff says he has suffered ID Theft. (But he’s sorry to have jumped to conclusions.)
I, of course, have no clue where this is coming from.
I checked the comment from Paul on April 25 Reform or not to Reform (indeed I checked all comments) and see nothing particularly scandalous. It wasn’t like ID theft Paul claimed to shoot the Pope in the head or anything. This whole thing fills me with questions: why would someone write THOSE comments if they were going to steal an identity? But okay… maybe someone used his name in an innocuous comment. But now I realize this is fraud: the claim and the subsequent histrionics.
Here is what I noticed: in subsequent posts, Paul Balluff affirms and reiterates details offered by ID Theft Paul Balluff. Curious…how is that possible?
Me Love You For Long Time submits a comment full of recrimination accusing me of filtering information I don’t happen to agree with. Only someone who hasn’t been paying attention to what is actually ON www.spiritualtyranny.com can make that accusation. But this attention deficit is only the first of a few.
Me Love You For Long Time submits a comment that is “proof” of my blog tyranny. This proof was a notice of moderation…from www.sgmrefuge.com. Indeed, the comment was moderated but not by moi.
Me Love You Long Time come to my blog and flames out Jim here, and then flames moi out on survivors. (Those comments were moderated and deleted I think.)
As a wise man once said to me: “Some people should drink in the daytime.”
- Paul Balluff posts with the email address Oldbaldguy@xxxxxx.xxx
- Me Love You For Long Time posts with the email address scentofawoman2u@xxxxx.xxx
>pay attention blog owners<
Both of these email addresses originate from the same IP address distributed by the same Internet vendor. Further investigation reveals these two personas are husband and wife.
So, this begs the questions: Why? Why accuse a blog owner of trying to fabricate posts? Why claim ID theft when the person doing the thefting is in the same house? Why feign ignorance? Why rail at perceived offense? Why manufacture offense by claiming censorship when very little if anything gets edited off this blog? Why the endless string of disinformation?
I have pondered these questions reading the comment looking for clues to a rationale.
The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that Paul Balluff has a teachable moment in mind. This assumes of course that Paul Balluff really does think. So, since I am interested in teachable moments, I am going to offer Paul and wife one opportunity to make their point. This is more than generous in my mind considering the liberties they have taken in my living room.
One shot guys. Take your time: think well what you want to say. Because I reserve the right to point out the BS and ban you forever.
92 comments
Juli
May 14, 2009 at 5:37 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Canary, Paul entered into the Arena of Ideas but then decides he just wants to engage in conversation with women and he runs away and dodges John…I wonder why? hehe
I feel like I’ve been through Spiritual Tyranny’s Intellectual Training Program…..the mind is powerful. And once you start learning to how to use it – boy is it fun!
I agree with Canary – Thanks John for not dismissing the impact women can make - we need more men like you in the world
Butterfly
May 15, 2009 at 11:20 pm Butterfly(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Musicman aka Kitty – That was so great!!!!!!!!!
Sopwith – It is so beautiful to read that – I have missed some of the words to that song. Truly beautiful and beyond encouraging – Thanks!
Jim
May 16, 2009 at 3:14 pm Jim(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
This would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Paul B
May 16, 2009 at 4:33 pm Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Jim says “This would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.”
Yes, it is sad Jim, that Paul’s hope is that those that have been burned find peace in Christ in a new fellowship.
I keep forgetting that Jesus is returning for his BLOG
(Now THAT is funny)
Jim
May 16, 2009 at 5:25 pm Jim(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul,
If I had your number I’d call you.
You have mine.
Bree
May 16, 2009 at 10:05 pm Bree(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul,
Maybe it was just a light-hearted joke, but the blog is actually made up of people, remember? So that’s sort of an unkind thing to say. I mean I guess you were just being sarcastic, but the truth is, Jesus is returning for these bloggers. He loves us all very much.
Sometimes, even when a person’s name is known, there’s a certain sense of anonymity about blogging or email that makes that person lose his inhibitions and say things he otherwise would not. Is that maybe the case with you? I’d hope so. Because on the one hand you apologize, then again, you’re impolite. Do you act this way in person? Just wondering.
Do you know that God is not bound by anything? I mean your idea of church, the Catholic idea of church, the Brethren idea of church, the Mennonite idea of church, the Seventh Day Adventist’s idea of church. Who’s got it right? What if there were constraints (anything imaginable) that prevented people from meeting in person, and the internet was the only way they could experience true fellowship. Would you think they should avoid that fellowship because they are unable to fellowship according to prescribed methods?
When Paul was in prison and physically unable to attend “church,” he wrote these words, “I know whom I have believed, and am pursuaded that he is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto him against that day.” So, even though I’m not yet a member of another church, nor attending regularly, I have faith in God to take care of me. I have more faith in God than in my local church–and I’m pretty darn sure that’s how God likes it.
In Christ Alone,
Bree
Paul B
May 17, 2009 at 7:49 am Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Bree, that was not sarcastic or mean- just trying to add humor to the Blog.
I know Christ is returning for His Church (Bride) which is comprised of members of all different denominations, as long as they trust and believe that Jesus is the Only way to the Father.
I don’t doubt that in the pews of my church building on any given Sunday there are many non-Christians that are their because it’s America and it’s Sunday and “Americans go to church on Sunday”.
I in no way was implying that people that Blog aren’t saved.
(Jim, I will call – I promise, but this whole month has been work -nights-or testing to keep my license up to date – so I haven’t had a minute to spare.)
In Christ,
Paul
Bree
May 17, 2009 at 9:36 am Bree(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul,
You misunderstand me. I never thought you were implying that the people here are not saved. I know that’s not what you meant. You were making a joke at the expense of hurting people–again. That’s what you did. It was directed at Jim, possibly at all the moderators, but it was most certainly at the expense of “us.” The people who are too bitter to get into a local church (that was sarcasm). You see?
I’m grateful that you addressed me, but I really wish you would have responded to more of my comment. Can you not see the good that is done here? Answer me, please? Can you not see that God is working here? because He most definitely is. You should have the utmost respect for the work of God and for the servants of Christ that have been called to join in this work with Him.
You may scoff, “Work of God?” Well, are you O.K. with standing before God and telling Him this ministry is a joke? or sinful? You have been, it would seem, attempting to impede (however, God is using it because He can) the work of God. You O.K. with that?
I don’t know why you are doing this. I don’t know why you see this ministry as beneath your church’s ministries. Your church can’t help the people here. Your church (family of churches) is why the people here need help!
Everyone is on their own unique journey. And the path you took, is not going to be the same one God calls others to. If we feel that God is in what we are doing, that He supports us and loves us and we are completely comfortable answering to Him for that, why should you even give a darn? You can’t say it’s out of love because you already blew that. So why do you care what we’re doing here? Why are you involving yourself? You’ve said you’re busy, so why?
I’m curious.
Blessings,
Bree
Juli
May 17, 2009 at 11:14 am Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul – you don’t need to add humor to this blog, there’s plenty already…but gee, thanks for being so willing to add something that was never asked of you while simultaneously ignoring the NUMEROUS requests to address the real issues here – namely those listed in this entire post that bears your name?
I’m still baffled at your avoidance and denial, your continuous disrespect, unwillingness to accept responsibility for your own words and actions, and your caustic tone.
As John has said more than once, as Bree has just asked, as others have asked: why are you here? Honestly, I could care less personally..because you have not added one thing to this discussion. But…
Unlike you, we can actually hear and understand what someone says (provided they take the time to articulate themselves clearly and not dance around issues like you have)
If you came on this blog to defend your beloved SGM, to tell us to get over it (being “burned” as you call it) and to get in a new church lest we somehow fall away from our predestined election as saints – let me save you some time:
point taken. We get the picture.
Now, move on….because we certainly are.
Canary
May 17, 2009 at 3:01 pm Canary(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Bree,
Any para church organization is not considered by SGM to be a godly or relevant endeavor, or at least it wasn’t the last I heard. Blogs, no matter how much they have helped others, will also be summarily dismissed by the SGM machine. Same old same old. We aren’t under their local church “authority” don’t ya know…
John Immel
May 17, 2009 at 3:32 pm John Immel(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Yeah guys… don’t fall for this criticism. It is a false choice argument: participate on a blog and not have “authentic fellowship.”
It presumes to measure authentic Christianity by fabricating its own yardstick.
It presumes a very narrow standard for “Fellowship.”
It presumes a definition of Christian fellowship that necessitates a geographic location as the predicate.
It presumes that someone is advocating that this blog (and others like it) are substitutes for Church: the brick and mortar kind most commonly advocated by the Don’t Date the Church crowd.
But most insidious, this criticism seeks to dismiss the content of conversation and thereby end the conversation. The unstated assertion is if you would just all move on to an “authentic Christian interaction,” all the bad stuff would go away. The very appearance of the conversation is proof of the unauthenticity of your faith.
This is another expression of “all churches have their problems, and you should just get over it” advocacy, which is part and parcel of the magic wand of pervasive depravity dismissal. Whatever has been done to you isn’t really all that bad, because we are all just sinners, so, forgive and move on. It seeks to trivialize and therefore reduce the conversation to irrelevancy.
When speaking to a shill, it is just best to let them blather on. They don’t have the ability to make critical distinctions. But they do offer some great teachable moments.
Paul B
May 17, 2009 at 4:24 pm Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
The sky is blue
Juli
May 17, 2009 at 4:49 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
a shill…ahahaha good one.
great reminders as usual John…thanks.
when are you posting next? I for one think the Ballufing going on has gotten more than enough “air time” here…. (hint, hint)
John Immel
May 17, 2009 at 5:10 pm John Immel(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
the attempts at levity are harmless and kinda funny in the big picture. And for all that, so is all the rest of the shilling. I figure if we can dish it out… then taking it is part of the dealeo.
as for the next post… honestly I am not landing on a direction. I have at least 10 unfinished articles that seem to go nowhere. so…. I’m thinking about a guest article that has some really cool stuff in it. But… haven’t made up my mind just yet.
Juli
May 17, 2009 at 5:33 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
but, but…THEY started it! hahaha just kidding…
I’d say I was twiddling my thumbs in anticipation of your next post..but the last time that happened here you came back with the behemoth Reform post…and then everyone went silent for a bit to digest it, then 300 comments later…
strange how things on blogs evolve…never know what will happen, which is of course part of the fun
John Immel
May 17, 2009 at 5:45 pm John Immel(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
LOL… technically speaking, I started it. That is the karma of being ornery, I suppose.
Juli
May 17, 2009 at 5:58 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
speaking of karma….MY karma ran over my dogma….
hahaha
Cardinal
May 17, 2009 at 8:15 pm Cardinal(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
But most insidious: this criticism seeks to dismiss the content of conversation and thereby end the conversation.
kinda like when you bring something to a SG leader and they say the problem is you….that’s the end of that.
Juli…..lol to your last post!
Juli
May 17, 2009 at 8:51 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Cardinal – thanks, and welcome, not sure if I’ve seen you comment before..but nice to have you here
so now we have a Cardinal AND a Canary…cool!
Yes, I suspect that is where the Balluf’s learned this method – SGM. Interesting that they don’t realize it is being done to them, yet they absorb the method enough to mimic it here…
Cardinal
May 17, 2009 at 9:54 pm Cardinal(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks for the welcome Juli…..long time reader…..first time poster…
Cardinal
May 18, 2009 at 9:49 am Cardinal(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
ps: John, Reform or not to Reform….was brilliant & spot-on.
John Immel
May 18, 2009 at 10:25 am John Immel(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Cardinal,
Thank you for being a long time reader. Tell your friends about the party of ideas going on here. : )
And further thanks for your kind words about my blogging behemoth! Your words matter to me.
Chip in as you see fit!
Cardinal
May 18, 2009 at 10:46 am Cardinal(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
the “blogging behemoth” helps more than you will ever know.
my husband had me make copies and we are still talking about it.
Sopwith
May 19, 2009 at 6:57 am Sopwith(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
…Truly Beautiful And Beyond encouraging!
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Butterfly,
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HowDee!
*
Thank you for your kind words!
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Blessings! …and ma prayers!
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Waz dat I’ze rememba, O yea:
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Praise ye the LORD: for it is good to sing praises unto our God; for it is pleasant; and praise is comely!
*
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Praise You, Jesus!
The LORD liveth!
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In His Presence, ;~)
*
Sopy
Paul B
May 25, 2009 at 9:20 am Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
OK John – Here come the answers to your questions. I will attempt to be civil and reign in the sarcasm, which I have trouble doing, but I do feel serves no purpose other than to fuel angry opposition from the opposing viewpoint.
1) So, this begs the questions: Why? Why accuse a blog owner of trying to fabricate posts?
John Immel “I check the comment from Paul on April 25 Reform or not to Reform”
Ok Mr. Immel – why would I write this on your blog? Why, after all I have written against your stand would I suddenly at to your dialog by attacking CJ Mahaney?
For those with short memories this is what I was supposed to have authored
*********************************
Paul Balluff on April 25th, 2009 7:09 am
“I advocate you read CJ’s editorial, Standing in the Very Stead of God, (12) found on his blog.”
I did and this stood out Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in
It’s sobering that this is “the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.” The moment of preaching is not simply one in which you—by virtue of your job or by virtue of the nameplate on your office door—get to stand up and share some thoughts. No. You are not sharing thoughts. You are not Jay Leno. You are not a talking head. You are standing in the very stead of God.
Oh, that is a frightening thing.
To remind you all – I love, and trust, CJ Mahaney and would never stoop to denigrate or demean him on a blog. I say again – I did not – nor did my wife write that .
You can play your “yes you did, no I didn’t” game all day, but think about it logically. Why would we write something totally antithetical to our way of thinking that would give any of these blogs anymore anti-SGM ammunition?
I hadn’t bothered to look on the blogs for a long time and the first time was over at your fellow anti SGM site “SGM Refuse” on April 30th when I jumped into a discussion on Legalism and Anti-nomianism.
On to question #2
Why claim ID theft when the person doing the thefting is in the same house? Why fane ignorance? Why rail at perceived offense?
Why to all 3? See Previous answer – that should suffice.
************************************
#3)Why manufacture offence by claiming censorship when very little if anything gets edited off this blog?
I am not claiming censorship on this site. You, as abrasive and nasty as you are (by your own admission you are not a nice person and a blog tyrant), will at least allow an opposing viewpoint to pen their objections. You may tear them down with callous sarcasm, but at least you allow them “into your living room”
Unlike “SGM Refuge” that will not let you post unless you tote the party line (a little cult like wouldn’t you say?)
#4) Why the endless string of disinformation?
No disinformation. What you are confused about is that while I was working a string of 4 – 12 hour night shifts my wife perused what I had been writing and decided on her own (imagine that, a Stepford wife thinking for herself, yes she does have a brain too) to write to your blog with her own thoughts. Now, I know that may shake your world – a SGM wife writing her own thoughts without getting permission from her husband???? By the way, she has a profession in the workplace and brings in a paycheck, and both our kids went to public school. Call the church police – STONE HER!!! She’s a witch, she turned me into a newt. (Sorry, sarcasm snuck into the room – away bad sarcasm and come back no more, LOL)
There was no “plot” against you and those on your site. It was simply my wife – thinking for herself, writing under her own moniker.
You decided to not only “OUT” her, but to tell the world her Email address, as well as mine. Even the lowest of blog sites don’t do that. There is promised anonymity, but I guess that is only for those of “like minds” Everyone else is the enemy.
So I have answered your questions. And, biting my tongue, tried to do it civilly, attempting to stem the tide of sarcasm that wants to spew all over the drapery in your family room.
And for all of you wondering why I have “disappeared over at your open minded blog “SGM Refuge” I haven’t. I am no longer allowed to visit the online Church of Jim because I disagree with his theology. At least with SGM you can voice your disproval without being kicked out of the church (I know because for 20+ years I have not been booted from my church and I am very vocal – much to the chagrin of my pastors)
So I am forced to answers Jim on your site
For those that haven’t visited the “competition” at SGM REFUGE the latest gossip about Brent Detwiler leaving SGM was just deleted by Jim – with no apology for the slander.
SGM REFUGE: Expect major changes in Gilbert, and in Shankville in general. I would guess that Steve will do what Brent did, and he’ll end up pastoring a church, maybe even Gilbert. Good move, as we know how well that worked out with Brent, who will probably leave SGM any day now. Correction-according to Brent, he is NOT leaving SGM.
He also stated
“CJ just came to town, spending some time with the more wealthy families in the church-sorry if you weren’t invited. At least you know where you stand. Dave Harvey will come in and do follow up. Maybe you’ll be on his list.”
“More wealthy families”? How can he, in Florida, know the wealth of the families that CJ visits in any town (unless he has a GPS chip in CJs briefcase?)
And why slander in such a manner? If you know that he visited only “wealthy families” you owe it to your readers the names and yearly income of said families. What will we see next month readers? “CJ to give birth to Alien baby” or “Brent seen with Elvis planning a church plant at Graceland”?
Stick to facts, not gossip and slander and allegations. AND PLEASE stop the constant complaining that NO ONE from SGM ministries is answering your questions on any of these SGM HATE sites.
One final quote that jumped right off your pages John and spoke volumes to your humility
“I built spiritualtyranny.com for mine. In this I am an unapologetic blog Tyrant.
Other than “for MINE” (you meant “for ME”) you quoted directly from one of my favorite DA songs
“I Didn’t Build it for Me”
Maybe there is hope for you and I, John if you are a DA fan, we actually have some common ground to talk upon.
For now, I will bid adieu and await the hostile cow pods that will be directed my way. But before you cast away, re-read my answers and see how civil I attempted to be when you know very well, I wanted to “stain your carpets”
Thank you for the open forum (or, if you will, living room)
Paul
John
May 25, 2009 at 10:05 am John(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Thanks, Paul…
Carole
May 25, 2009 at 10:54 am Carole(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul said: “And for all of you wondering why I have “disappeared over at your open minded blog “SGM Refuge” I haven’t. I am no longer allowed to visit the online Church of Jim because I disagree with his theology.”
First of all, no one misses you at SGMRefuge…
Second, as you have been told before, publicly on the blogs and privately by email, your words and your tone are the reason your comments don’t make it through our spam filter. It has absolutely nothing to do with differences in theology. There are many who comment that we don’t necessarily agree with doctrinally, but they are welcome to voice their opinions and convictions. Even the most avid SGM supporters are welcome as long as they don’t throw up on the rest of our guests. You have been told this many times… I don’t understand what part of that you just can’t seem to understand. :sigh:
While I’m glad (truly) that your SGM experience has been a good one, your experience doesn’t change other’s horrible experiences. Maybe a bit more compassion in your words and tone for those who have experienced first hand the authoritarian abuse by SGM leaders would be the start of what could be an enlightening conversation.
And by the way… you have absolutely no idea of Jim’s sources for information. If you did, I guarantee you that you would be shocked speechless!
On another note… I hope and pray your surgery goes well… may God bless you with an easy and speedy recovery…
Canary
May 25, 2009 at 11:07 am Canary(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I hadn’t bothered to look on the blogs for a long time and the first time was over at your fellow anti SGM site “SGM Refuse”…
That had better be an innocent mis-spelling…
Canary
May 25, 2009 at 11:09 am Canary(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Carole,
Well done, well said!
Paul B
May 25, 2009 at 11:23 am Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Refuge (typo)
Jim, thank you also for your tone.
And BTW – you aren’t,perchance, a DA fan, are you?
I am dying to find a blog that talks about the “good old days” of Classic CCM (nothing against Amy, Sandi, and Evie)
Paul B
May 25, 2009 at 11:31 am Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
To Carole (On the Blog I am not allowed to post on)
You said”And by the way… you have absolutely no idea of Jim’s sources for information. If you did, I guarantee you that you would be shocked speechless! ”
So there is slander from on high? Sad that there are those that would chose to anonymously toss grenades than to follow scripture and bring a disagreement to the person you have a problem with (something I am not allowed to do at SGM Refuge)
You all realize that away from these typewritten pages, in a room with music and voice lifted together in worship there would be nary a hint of dissension.
Pretty sad, isn’t it?
Especially to a watching unbelieving world.
Paul B
May 25, 2009 at 11:34 am Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Sorry Carole – forgot the surgery thingee (I am trying not to think about it)
Thank you for your kindness- at our age – speedy recovery is like speedy typing skills – only in our mnids and filled wiht tpyos
Carole
May 25, 2009 at 1:05 pm Carole(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul,
I think you are confusing “gossip and slander” with very real concerns for the way the SGM organization does it’s business. There are those within the SGM system that are as concerned, if not more so, than those of us who have felt the effects of SGM’s unorthodox, hyper-authoritarian leadership style.
The thing is, Paul, those of us who are speaking out and confronting unbiblical teachings and behaviors in SGM leaders are doing it for the benefit of SGM and it’s members. The scrutiny that has been placed on SGM leaders by the blogs has brought some needed change to the organization… they still have a ways to go, but you (and other SGM members) are the beneficiaries of these “SGM-business-as-usual” problems that have been exposed through the blogs.
So, you’re welcome!
Oh yeah… I didn’t appreciate this comment from you AT ALL!!!
“at our age – speedy recovery is like speedy typing skills – only in our mnids and filled wiht tpyos”
What do you mean by “at our age”????? I still feel like a 20 year old…. Hahahahahaha!!!
Just kidding… I DO hope and pray your recuperation time is limited to that of a 20 year old… like me… 
Paul B
May 25, 2009 at 1:16 pm Paul B(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
John, since you have kind enough to let me remain on your site I would like to reach out to 2 who wrote me on SGM Refuge
and ask if they would come out from behind the shadows and be man enough to talk to me face to face. If there really are problems, wouldn’t it be better to handle them face to face? Here is what they had to say and their “names”
Collateral Damage and Famagusta
Collateral Damage
May 4th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Paul, You and I know each other. We have for a long time. My family and I used to go to Metro, and now we a part of another SGC in Florida. The SGM we all fell in love with, and wanted to serve and give our lives to no longer exists. It is dead. No longer should we defend and protect an organization (or the men that run it), but give our lives to our Lord and His service. SGM is not “the church of people” you say this site (and others like it) are slandering. The people of SGCs need help. They need leaders who are interested in caring for them, and not THE ORGANIZATION first. The leadership (and most pastors) of SGM will do whatever it takes to protect and defend SGM, AT ANY COST. The cost of peoples’ lives, marriages, relationships, etc., are expendible to the greater good of THE ORGANIZATION. SGM is their god in too many “apostles” eyes, and not our Lord Jesus. I know this from personal experience. My name on here is what me and my family have been characterized as by SGM. Please stop and think about who you serve. I thought for a long time my family and I were serving God first, but it wasn’t that way at all. SGM was an idol to me and idols don’t like it when people try to expose them. They rear their ugly little heads and fight to stay an idol.
Famagusta
May 4th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Paul, we know each other from our church. I know you as much more bold and intelligent than your posts, which I have been reading now since they started (following this site for a while, as do others you know), sounded. Don’t choose the easy way and just accuse everyone here of “slandering”. There is A LOT more to it, and if you’re honest, you know it.
I have laughed about other SGM defenders here who don’t have anything better to say, because they they don’t ask the hard questions. ABout you, I don’t laugh. I know you could do better. Sorry bro, but this is embarassing.
Juli
May 25, 2009 at 2:43 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul, I know you ahve attempted to answer John’s questions, but I have to say, you still haven’t, but as a reader here, I appreciate your attempt to do so.
you actually reiterated John’s question #1 to you when you wrote in your comment above which shows me you are at least paying attention:
1) So, this begs the questions: Why? Why accuse a blog owner of trying to fabricate posts?
You got the question right, but you still answered it by defending yourself and why YOU didn’t write the post in the first place, as you continue to claim. You can’t seem to move past this point.
Here’s the thing Paul, I think you are the only one here who assumed that post was written in an anti-CJ or anti-SGM perspective…it wasn’t really damaging to you even if it WAS fabricated by John, which it clearly wasn’t.
This begs the question: Are you back stepping because you feared it would be received as being anti-CJ? Because I certainly didn’t see it that way..you going on an on defending your support for CJ and SGM is clear, why you assumed the origianl comment in question somehow detracted from this, I don’t know. So it seems your defense of yourself is in fact not needed as we all know your stance.
So the questions remains: why would JOHN fabricate comments as a blog host? You didn’t answer that one still.
The third question: #3)Why manufacture offence by claiming censorship when very little if anything gets edited off this blog? you responded with this as your answer:
I am not claiming censorship on this site.
I’d like to point out that you have claimed fabrication of comments on this site by John (which is worse in my opinion than censorship) and your “not-so Stepford wife” has claimed John has censored comments on this site, on numerous occasions. Since you may not be aware of what your free-thinking wife has had to say on this site, let me enlighten you as to just some of her comments where she clearly accuses John of censorship:
ME LOVE YOU LONG TIME on May 13th, 2009 11:40 am on the Reform or Not to Reform comments
Well…good morning Vietnam!
I was banned from posting on the site for a long time so all the while you guys were able to ramp it all up and name call without any availability to respond, which I am sure your blog masters loved.
and again here:
ME LOVE YOU LONG TIME on May 6th, 2009 1:25 pm
NOT FOR NOTHIN, BUT I POSTED A RANT HERE LAST NIGHT AND IT NEVER MADE IT. SO THIS IS AN “OPEN MINDED” “CHRISTIAN” FORUM? GUESS NOT ON MANY FRONTS. IT LOOKS LIKE, AT LEAST TO ME, IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THIS CO DEPENDENT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO JUST CAN NOT GET ON WITH LIFE , YOU DON’T MAKE THE BLOGMASTERS LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE. YOUR OPINION GETS SRATCHED.
and here:
ME LOVE YOU FOR LONG TIME on May 13th, 2009 6:08 pm
left a rant this morning….hmm still is not here?
and yet again here:
ME LOVE YOU LONG TIME on May 13th, 2009 11:40 am
Well…good morning Vietnam!
I was banned from posting on the site for a long time so all the while you guys were able to ramp it all up and name call without any availability to respond, which I am sure your blog masters loved. I was in total shock when I responded with the” Who says I am a part of an SGM church” comment that it made it. Had to laugh. was the first post your blogmaster allowed to get through. Guess they only choose what they want you to hear. I have many posted that did not make it back in the blogmasters lambs book of life. You are being controled guys. Lets see if this makes it in.
So you see Paul, your constant accusations of SGM Refuge and Jim being some sort of cult leader over there and censoring your comments, and your wife railing against John here, clearly you are not speaking the truth when you write:
“I am not claiming censorship on this site.”
No, you claimed John actually fabricated your comments, and claimed censorship at the Refuge by Jim and your wife claims John censored her here…don’t try to weasel out of the obvious. You don’t think John Immel is a nice man..so be it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But you are still railing against him for something he HAS given you an answer for.
We get it. You think: CJ, good – John Immel, bad.
you made that point clearly..and made some points here for those on the Refuge as well…and yes, John has graciously allowed that up to this point.
Yeah, I see why he’s “so bad” because he allows you to piss on his floor because you left Jim’s house before you could finish relieving yourself there.
Paul…<shaking head> you said you were glad there were some here who were moving on.
why don’t you do the same yourself?
Jim
May 25, 2009 at 3:29 pm Jim(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Paul,
Since your latest attack was aimed at me, it’s posted on the blog. Thank you for keeping my guests out of it. As long as you continue to attack, or dialog or whatever directly with me, I’ll let your posts through.
You know, kind of like I’ve told you 10 times via email.
I just called you. I’ll be at my desk for a couple of hours-please give me a call.
Juli
May 25, 2009 at 7:04 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
wow…between John and you, Jim, no one could ever accuse the “Anti-SGM blog moderators”of not being fair.. and actually have anyone take them seriously that is…although I am sure some ninny out there will still find something to accuse you two of that is below reproach, by their definition.
Anyone with half the ability to think clearly sees that the men who have LEFT SGM, at least, have some integrity. And two of those men happen to host blogs that help others. Hmmm…
Paul – why don’t you stop trying to confuse readers and stop starting your own gossip by not mixing up your facts…you are making accusations against John that you clearly intended for Jim and vice versa…get your BLOGS straight, get the NAMES OF THESE MEN straight, get your FACTS straight, and THEN come back and try to tell these men to get THEIR facts straight…do you even realize how foolish your comments come across simply because you can’t keep basic information like that straight in your own head? Sheesh…
for the record: Jim hosts SGM Refuge. John hosts Spiritualtyranny, that would be the site you are presently reading. They are not competitors as you suggested. They are in fact friends. What exactly would you think they would compete for since neither of them make any money by speaking the truth and helping people??
Oh, Jim, since according to Paul you’ve started a church online, maybe you should start charging money to let people comment, after all, even cyber church leaders have to make a living too, don’t you think?
I think you should start with Paul – if he wants to post on your “church” blog, I would charge him ten bucks each time. hehe
ok…..I’m done. signing snarking off, Juli
John Galt
July 3, 2009 at 2:47 am John Galt(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Ok, I think i started writng in this blog under a different article where i disclosed that i know Paul. Kindly i was told that would not be held against me. Thank you. after reading everything under the Lessons I am a bit saddened. i guess he would attack me as well, i hope not.
Some background, they have struggled in their relationship with SGM and the local church they attend. they have been helped and at times ignored. They are opinionated and the sarcasm is something that is a part of them. i think it is because of where they lived in their youth (NEW YORK sarcasm). What makes me sad is I know them to be compassionate people so the verbal violence i have read here has me physically shaken. On a side note his surgery went well, but there is an infection of some sort that will keep him from working for several months, something that i know will strain their finances. Please pray for them. They have loved me through some of my hard times and some of those hard times were as a result of leadership turning a blind eye to what i was experiencing or trying to communicate. So while i do not understand the persoanl vehemence of their posts I know that they love the Lord and they love the leadership team. Also, i care deeply about them.
All of that being said, thanks to all here who have helped me over the last day and a half. it has been cathartic to realize that i am not alone in what i was perceiving. If the Balluffs read this post and the others that I have put forth they will be able to out me. I hope not, but after what i have read on this blog I am no longer sure. So Jim and John i say thanks for providing a place of support for those who have left or like me are in the valley of decision. To Paul and Paula, i love you guys, this can not be disputed, please reconsider your purpose and style of communication on this board. Like i said earlier i am literally physicaly shaking and now have tears coming down my cheeks because from what you have posted you would consider me an SGM hater and you know that isn’t true. We haven’t talked in a while and after reading your posts i understand why God has not permitted me to communicate with you about my struggles which ahve been ongong for 19 months. The good news is that the Lord has set me free from the controls that were placed on my life by being a part of this movement. you know that i have also been on the outside looking in most of the years that i have attended our fellowship. then when it looked like i was in the place of being accepted (conformed to their image not the Lord’s) it was sort of a bait and switch. the rug was pulled out from under my feet and i was devastated. But why, because i wanted the approval of men more than God. This is not a position that i believe the Lord will ever have me endure again.
You ask who is John Galt??? he is the one who believes in freedom.
Juli
July 3, 2009 at 11:31 am Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
John G,
as John I. would say…..peace.
you are among friends here. the ability to sort through the mental, emotional and spiritual comes through persistence. so, I wanted to encourage you to keep seeking the truth – because it is the truth that sets us free.
and if you believe in freedom, then you must believe that man’s individual ability to know, apprehend, and understand truth is essential, and foundational.
you’ve already self-identified some things that prevented this progression in your own life previously…now that some of those pressures are no longer perceived as pressures, it does get easier, and fast.
hold on to your hat….it gets fun from here on out
John Galt
July 3, 2009 at 1:21 pm John Galt(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
Juli,
I know that i have stepped into a new arena. I hope it will be fun. I expect there is a tsunami heading my way!!
Juli
July 3, 2009 at 4:53 pm Juli(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
John, just grab your surfboard then! Surf’s up!
Mainstay Ministries
April 20, 2011 at 2:29 am Mainstay Ministries(Quote) (Reply) (UTC -4) Link to this comment
I find this article pretty amusing. Not to mention uniquely interesting.
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