The focus of these articles have been on other things entirely.
Since I do not have direct access to the main players, nor do I think it is right to try someone in the press without having all the facts available I’m reluctant to merely speculate or foster an environment for speculation.

Since a suspect email address was used to make the comment I can’t respond to this off line, therefore I’m going to say it here: If you would be so kind, please refrain from re-asking this question so that it might bypass the site filters. Let me consider how I want to handle this.

all the best…ted

 
Thanks for your comments.  I’m glad that the warnings, and observations here have made a difference.  I will say though… I chuckle at your comment “where I could exercise my Calvinist and Charismatic leanings with impunity.”  This is a lot of people I think. They struggle to find a home for their intellectual leanings combined with their experiential practice. Or at the very least they want contemporary music to be superimposed over top of what they presume to be “authentic” Christianity. They tend to think that this is the best of all worlds. This is exactly what started SGM down its current path. Many contemporary Evangelical denominations are the byproduct of this pursuit, which of course is what causes so many people so much consternation. They don’t realize that Calvinism and Charismatic are in fact rooted in to utterly apposed world views. (I touch on this quite a bit in my most recent post.)

The reason people find it so hard to find the right blend of the two is because there is no blend. There is no way to reconcile the underlying metaphysic of Calvinism’s predestined depravity against the vague, rather hazy metaphysic of the Charismatic world view: effective human autonomy. People trying to navigate this dichotomy end up with some serious spiritual schizophrenia, holding tight to two presumptions that cannot live in the same head or heart.  The only thing that can happen is to trend down the path of SGM, following the underlying ideas to their inevitable and logical ends.  Or, with ever increasing measure abandon the presumptions of Calvinism, or put lipstick on ideas and pretend they fit in spite of their implications.      

What no one seems to want to grasp is the SGM phenomena is not new.  They are merely the crest of the wave of those people with the zeal and determination to execute the ideas with impunity. SGM IS where Calvinism goes if followed consistantly, which is of course, why the evolution of Christian though—from roughly the 17th century forward—is a study in an effort to (unsuccessfully) get out from underneath the iron clad “logic” imbedded in Calvin’s Institute. And of course Calvin’s logic is at its root Augustine’s Neo Platonism combined Lutheran emphasis. That is a formidable philosophical fortress to penetrate.  

Dare I say it? I think your chat room buddy had it right. The combination is an oxymoron.
 
John

Having read so much today about SG, I have a question that was not answered for me.  Wikipedia states “Some of this period’s tensions also arose because Tomczak’s fitness as a father was called into question by church leadership over what Tomczak described as the “teenage rebellion” of his son.”  No one has mentioned what was the specific nature of Justin’s “teenage rebellion.”  Was his “teenage rebellion” minimalized as was the “teenage rebellion” of the boy with testicles or did his rebellion take a different turn.  And was there some “denial” going on in the Tomczak family in regard to this boy as there was in the Mom of the boy who raped Noel’s daughter?

 I thought I had found a SG church last year.  It was listed as a Sovereign Grace church but, as it turned out, it was a church where a strong Sovereignty of God message was taught but with what I consider a lot of Scriptural misinterpretations.  Well, I would believe there were scriptural misinterpretations because they turned out to be cessationists.  When I found that out I became very angry and told the receptionist over the phone I wish they would have put a sign on the door, “NO CHARISMATICS WELCOME HERE.”  I am so tired of being duped by churches that sing “contemporary” music and claim they allow charistmatics but turn out to be, like one church I had joined, just wanting me to fill the pew because charismatics weren’t actually allowed to teach or even join the before Bible study prayer group. 

But, before I found out they were cessationist (I found this out from a woman in the church that I happened to run into in a restaurant) this scripture was going through my head: “You study the scripture and in them you think you have eternal life and they are they that speak of Me (Jesus.)” John 5:39  As I have been reading about SGM today this church has kept coming to my mind along with this scripture.  After reading all this I know Sovereign Grace is wrong for me anyway because it does go against my basic conviction that a Christian is anyone who is saved by the blood of Chirst. In which case, it doesn’t matter if we are Calvinist and/or Charismatic because we are Christians.  Once, when I put on a charismatice chat room that I was a Calvinist/Charismatic someone wrote “That’s an oxymoron.” LOL!

Yeah… the process of getting out from underneath the toxic mindset deeply rooted in the founding doctrines takes a long time. This trips a lot of people up because they think the problem is a failure of practice and assume the doctrines are correct. What happens is they end up with tyranny lite. They end up creating/advocating the roots of the tyranny because they have yet to grasp how the ideas are the driving force of the practice.

As I have said repeatedly … any argument that concedes the premise is a lost argument. To effectively combat the root of the problem, one must reject the root of the argument. And it takes a long time to rethink, reHEAR many of the Bible passages and ideas that have been used as authority to compel idea outcomes.

I detail this very progression in my upcoming book Blight in the Vineyard—Getting free of the Myths and Tyrannies of Sovereign Grace Ministries. I got my advance copies back from my readers and have solidified a final (if I can ever stop dinking with my manuscripts) version.

There are a few business related hurdles to overcome and I’m still working on some strategies for getting it out for mass consumption, so a pub date is still vague… but it is coming.

(If I’ve learned anything over the last two years about publication… nothing happens fast… whatever… I’m up to the challenge… I’ll figure it out.)

Anyway … for those of you lurkers looking for something to DO in the face of the oppression you have lived… no matter the location or the name on the marquee—go get healthy. Don’t DO anything for anyone else. Go out and meet people… not church people, not sinner people, not unsaved people… just people … and then just listen. You will be amazed at what happens next.
.-= John Immel´s last blog ..Namaste Nemesis =-.

“Here is my advice: do nothing with others. Go heal. Go get healthy.”

it has taken a long time to really understand how all this came about…even after many years things “pop up” that tell me I dont get it at all…

#1 recognizing that we are not the ones to blame & more important that we are not responsible for correcting anyone but ourselves…

all the best…ted

Thanks for your comments and welcome. Heather does have a wonderful story, doesn’t she?

As for your children: this is a hard place to be for all people involved.

One of the most disastrous parts of modern Christian doctrine as we revisit the old justifications for the European Religion and affirm the commitments to Kantian philosophy and Altruism’s ethics is that it wrecks two things: reality and satisfaction.

Maybe I will address this later in a post in greater detail. For now I will summarize in very broad strokes. When spirituality is reduced to despair-driven duty of a bound will (Luther, Calvin, Kant) and the highest moral action is sacrifice (altruism), personal satisfaction by default becomes synonymous with sin. The inevitable conclusion is a philosophical self-loathing.

Man plays endless mind games to escape the implication of these historic doctrines, but that does not change the inescapable conclusions. Some people are just more honest, more consistent with the logical outworking.

Why does man play this game? Because the psychic pain created by the damned if you do and damned if you don’t moral equation. Man is not designed to live in such overwhelming internal chaos. He CANNOT live in a state of ethical crisis. The only solution is to evade a reality that condemns every affirmation of self-satisfaction. Hence, an endless effort by men to drown their pain in alcohol, drugs, sex, and all manner of debauchery–since any pleasure is considered sinful, why not define the most base pleasures as the highest pleasure? All hail Jagermeister!

Physical addiction is the body outworking of a very basic philosophical statement: I hate reality, because reality (the doctrinal filters that define morality) tells me I should hate ME.

The result is the endless cycle of destruction: you’re a sinner — > You need God’s grace — > don’t sin — > commit sin — > you’re a sinner — > and on and on.

The fix to this destructive progression is the restoration of reality and satisfaction. Or more precisely, the restoration of individual value, real value based in creative self, working to successfully order the world. And this can only happen when people love reality.

To save anyone from the endless cycle of self-loathing and destructive debauchery, put them to work and let them have the unrestrained satisfaction of their success. Soon Jagermeister and orgasms with indiscriminate others will be pale in the light of personal definition.

As for what to do with or for others while you heal…

Here is my advice: do nothing with others. Go heal. Go get healthy. You are miles from being able to do little else but commiserate with those who have suffered as you have, or embattle with those so myopic in their tyranny they cannot be helped.
Trust me here… I have lived this very progression.
There is a lot of background work to be done before you are ready and able to help anyone. Think YEARS… and depending on your motivation to really understand what happened and why it happened … maybe a decade. And depending on how you view your ‘calling,’ that might fill you with fear and desperation? I understand…

Just remember this… It is not your job to raise God’s kids.

Tell your husband thanks… I’m glad you are both reading. It matters.

Peace…
.-= John Immel´s last blog ..Namaste Nemesis =-.

I have NO background with SGM but I saw a huge nightmare in the mega seeker churches. Strip away all the vernacular and it is the same exact stuff. Tyranny with a smile. I call it totalitarian niceness. If you go along, we will be nice to you and you are one of us…which is important. If not, we will be nice to you in front of a crowd and ruin you in secret so there is no trail of blood back to us. Happened every day.

One mega pastor wrote a book on how God built his church with lots of interesting stories that NEVER happened. As a matter of fact, he most often did the OPPOSITE of what the book says!

What we must understand is that it is the system. It is designed to be maintained at all costs. Any thing that threatens the system must be neutralized at all costs.

My goal is to help others out of the system and into a personal relationship with Christ. Not trying to get around their celebrity pastor. Folks learn best from stories, too.

we have over 35 years of dealing(in diverse ways) with all the stuff that makes this forum float…having come through so much…there must be a purpose to all of it…it actually has become a pretty exciting time for us both…

this is in no way a “diss” to any one elses experiences…but since p0sting here I realized that there were so many more people affected by what I though was my own little nightmare
 that it boggles my mind…hence a much closer evaluation as to what I should do…

I promise more when it is a bit more developed…

see John…there is a reason for all this!

like I have posted numerous times…bitterness and anger will only perpetuate our own troubles with all this…I want not only for us all to be overcomers, but also a remnant or leaven that can make a change…t

>snicker<