148 Responses to “Family Member Tomczak Responds”

1. John on February 28th, 2010 2:22 pm

   Too all commenter’s… for whatever reason my little comment box is not recognizing single spaces between paragraphs.  Put an extra space to get separation.  In the mean time I will work on getting this silly widget to work right. 

    

2. Sopwith on February 28th, 2010 8:31 pm

   A Fractured Fairy Tale: “Just A Friendly Old SGM Troll”.

   HowDee, Ya’All,

     I too, would rather like to hear the re-telling of: Just A Friendly Old SGM Troll, –Remember dat upside-down fractured fairy tale that juxtaposes the traditional tale of Three Billy Goats Gruff, –goats that outwit a menacing troll who lives under a bridge, with a retell’in in which the venerable ole troll is a discarded SGM super-pastor that relates his side of the story…  

   I am soooooo glad I ain’t the gingerbread man…

   O’ right…dats another story… he he

   In a little,

   Sopy

3. DB on March 2nd, 2010 8:40 am

   You actually said everything that was on  my mind with respect to this subject.

   Considering all the abuse that has gone on in the churches Larry T. helped to create, pondering the absence of gonads shouldn’t be the focus of anyone’s offense.

4. John Immel on March 2nd, 2010 12:16 pm

   DB… good to hear from you.  And very well said.  you said in a sentance what it took me 3500 words to say. 
    

5. musicman on March 7th, 2010 12:41 am

   John-
   Amen and YES…if Larry cared so much where the heck has been all these years?  If he really thinks Kris and Guy have done such a great job than why are they letting Kris and Guy carry the torch…did they help start PDI/SGM?  Did they decide to give CJ an Apostolic platform for his preaching?
   Larry-if you care so much, than speak man-how can you remain silent for all these years and truly say that you understand and that you care?

6. Heather on March 20th, 2010 11:34 pm

   I am a little confused. I am legitimately asking for an answer, and I don’t have a sarcastic or malicious tone in my typing in the least.  With that being prefaced:
   1) What exactly are you holding Larry Tomczak and Che Ahn resonsible for? How exactly are they at fault for PDI/SGM today, and what would you have them do about it tonight?
   It would seem that, and perhaps I am just misunderstanding, but it would seem as if you are holding the same legalistic standard over those two the way we all are disgusted at how SGM does their members.
   I don’t quite understand how you chose those 2 men, considering they have had nothing to do with that ministry in at least a decade, probably 2 decades for Che. 
   How can they be held responsible for the current problems within SGM? I am legitimately asking. I am not understanding your Biblical train of thought on that.
   I highly doubt that on “Judgement Day” Jesus will hold these men acocuntable for whatever is happening there, or for whatever HAS happened there.
   Man, I am soooooo glad that I serve a God who doesn’t hold my past failures, my past immaturities, my past mistakes, my past anything against me. And only HE knows the depth of my repentance.
   I would also just submit that it is a very slippery slope to accuse people, and place blame with judgement on someone in general, let alone people I doubt you know personally.
   What is frustrating with sites like this is,  it continues to perpetuate a cyle of division, rather than a spirit unity or reconcilliation.  Do you pray for these men, or just air what you perceive to be their sins to the public? There is a way to “teach” the body about correct Biblical application within church leadership, but  as a believer I was quite saddened at your negative approach. 
   It would seem to me that those of us who have “seen the light” so to speak, would be provoked out of love, not what comes off as bitterness. Again, maybe I am misunderstanding you. I hope I am.
   The bottom line is Christ died for ALL of us. He desires CJ, Larry, Che, me, you, the bum on the corner, etc. Regardless of whatever we have all done, the Lord is always at work and HE alone knows our hearts. Larry & Che are STILL Jesus’ beloved. Thet are STILL grafted in. They are STILL your brother’s in Christ.
   I would encourage all of us to be careful at how quickly we bash public ministers. I will bring to rememberance that it was false accusations and “public bashing” that aided to Christ’s crucifixion, yet He was without sin. (I am in NO way comparing Larry or Che to Christ, but simply using that as an example of how wrong it is to just jump on the ”word of mouth” band wagon.)  Rarely do we ever know the full story anyway.
   There is a difference between holding one another accountable within the global Body, and picking apart one another in the global Body. If you have a problem with Larry or Che, maybe you should write to them. Hey, it’s scriptual! I think you’d be surprised at their response to you.  
   I would love to see these Christian versions of “The National Inquirer” stop, and a little more Christ like behavior shown.
   I can’t imagine Jesus is pleased with some of the comments.
   I can bet no one would talk this way about their friend’s, yet it’s okay to do so when someone is “just a figure” and not a person in our lives. How can that sit right with you?
   I am aware that most of us, especially any “ex SGM’s”, are probably very “put off” by seemingly legalistic “corrections”…….but we ARE still held accountable to Christ AND character whether we are angry or bitter or whatever. 

   I think your posts could be much more effective for the Kingdom if you were to re-evaluate your approach.

7. John Immel on March 21st, 2010 12:19 pm

   Heather,
   Uh…. ???    hummm…

   At the moment I am struggling to know where to begin.    If I wasn’t confident in my ability to write the English language I would think my post (and the other two on this very subject) printed out in Greek, or Klingon.   I’m trying to figure out why you are not Groking my point.   (A little Heinlein for you SF geeks)

   I am going to ponder the disconnect and craft my response.  While n my pensive state, I’m gonna ask for some HELP from the wonderful spiritual tyranny readership to weigh in on your comments.  Maybe the folk not distracted by the pretty picture can address your remarks.

    In the mean time might I recommend reading: http://spiritualtyranny.com/listen/

8. Heather on March 21st, 2010 7:18 pm

   Okay, I have re-read your posts 4 times now to try and help this communication gap via the internet vs. in person. 

   I DO see where you are coming from. I see how you are flat out furious, as well as others, that NO one has seemed to blow the whistle or take responsibility for the mess that is now SGM.
   And I absolutely agree, it’s my “way to go about it” that I think we slightly differ. But nontheless, I support that thought.

   My thoughts are that even if Larry, or whomever, were to publicly blow the horn & admit that alot of the now used doctrine was as a result of “them” introducing it, and they want everyone to know they were way off the mark & were wrong…..I truly don’t believe it would change a single thing.

   We don’t wrestle with flesh & blood, but evil forces. I personal believe wholeheartedly that SGM is such a large spiritual stronghold that needs to be broken, but I don’t think a series of public admissions from ANYone will do that. Honestly, I think SGM is so over burried in deception that those kinds of “savior like, blow the whistle men” would cause SGM’s reigns to tighten even  more on their “sheep’s” contact with the outside world.

   For me, I can tell you that my experience with PDI resulted in many years of getting free of rejection, and a performance mentality. It all but ruined my family. I too was sexually abused my 2 men that worked within the children’s ministry. That’s all I will comment on about that specific issue. To “up my credibility”, I was born into CLC as a pastor’s child, and remained there unitl I was almost 16.  My entire life was PDI. It’s so trivial to argue who left first…my dad actually confronted leadership about the introduction of Calvinism. We left shortly after, as one of the few families without being asked to leave, without any accusations charged against mydad,  and with CJ and Gary and John feeling betrayed and hurt that my dad would “leave” them. How could my dad abandon them?!

   When we left, we all began a long healing process. We all had a desire to these this ministry exposed. We still do. It is unimaginable the depth of pain for my dad, and all of us. He served as a pastor there for 20 years. There was still dialogue between my dad & the leaders at the “mother ship”, but my dad personally felt that they were so unreceptive (duh) and so unable to even step back and see my dad’s point of view, that my dad actually turned to a different form of confrontation; prayer. Apparently 20 + years of “friendship” was not worth saving to “them” if my dad had the nerve to question their authority.

   Me, my mom, and dad actually visited CLC about 4 years ago…..1 to confront one of molestors. 2 to actually re-establish relationships so that truth could come out. You wanna know what happened? My dad walked in, and literally flocks of people ran over to us and started crying and  hugged us and missed us, etc. (My dad had somewhat maintained favor within leadership all these years, well maybe not favor perse, but we weren’t Satan’s child at that point) Once “they”  saw how influential my dad still was, Gary met us at the door and told my parents if they wanted to come back, they needed to have a meeting with CJ as to whether or not we have changed our views about them, and basically if they were able to admit they were wrong in leaving in the first place. We turned around and walked out. Very hurtful. Very angering. Very unjustified. My dad is still not in ministry to this day. He is still determined to see reconciliation with those people, and the true Gospel.
   My dad is Chuck Thompson. http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/733/chuckjy.jpg
   (Chuck & Sandy Thompson)

   I don’t want to remain anonymous…..I was bound with the fear of man for way too long. I am Heather Thompson, the oldest daughter…..well I guess I only have one sibling. Ha!

   I believe that there will be a time and a place for confrontation. I believe that there is a spiritual battle at hand, and strategy is everything. Now, I have left ALOT out. It would be my parents wish and prayer in life to see these men repent and turn around. Many former pastors abroad share that same burden. There seems to be an awareness growing and a desire to “do something.” Remember, alot of us have had to go theough years of heling to even get to this place of publicly talking about. Many years of healing. A “confrontation” was almost impossible for my family due to the grip leadership still seemed to have on us……..YEARS LATER!

   What may have started out as a wonderful grass roots ministry with TAG, has spiraled into an outta control doctrine. But they are so deceived! They have NO clue, they have NO grid to even understand where they are wrong. There is NO revelation to their sins, and no one other than Christ can ever reveal that. No man can make another understand their carnality if they don’t have the humility to receive correction…..so it is going to take something stronger than “us” calling “them” out. BUT- I do say go forward with charges to illegal acts, and I DO say speak the truth….I just personally think we’d have more influence if it were done in a way that gained respect & credibilty.  (Though I can assure you I am most certainly not invalidating one’s feelings, trust me……I just so desire to see something rock SGM. Just “how” is key….in my little opinion.)

   I think we all have an opportunity to feel validated through our experinces by sharing our stories to one another, but I can tell you right now that it will take something much greater than Larry Tomczak publicly asking forgiveness, or dedicating his life to blowing the whistle on SGM. And, really….that may not at all be the Lord’s plan for this “movement” to be exposed.

   With that being said, I completely relate to the anger. I am furious that I was left out there alone for so many years. I have story upon story, as do we all. It has taken years for me & my parents to have the relationships that we now have. As I said before, being one of the original pastor’s kids, born into the “mother ship”, and raised there, I can definitelyassure you I  have quite a few incidences under my belt.

   What I realize is that we are all in different stages of the healing process.  My origianl post was harder to articulate because of the dang typing. My point really is, we need to get the mind of Christ on how to go forward with SGM. How DO we help those still there? My point really is that I don’t find one man responsible to be Moses and bring everyone outta Egypt. I will take that role if need be. You can take that roll. We all can. BUT, there are so many scriptures on how to go about this (which I am sure I just made some of you puke a little with the thought of me actually using scripture to back this up) but regardless of the false truths, and twistings of the Word that I was raised in, I ultimately am responsible now for my growth and healing. I think we could really make an impact, and I don’t mean in a fluffy cumbuya manor, but I think we could really expose some things with the back up from the Holy Spirit. But it won’t happen with attitudes, and anger, and rage, and a motivation to humiliate and serve justive ourselves. Isn’t that kinda what we have been so vocal about be against within SGM?

   With all that being said, I pray for continual healing in all of us. I still find myself struggling with stupid principles that should never have affected me. But I am not afraid. I am not ashamed. It has been a long journey for my family, but the journey is shifting and there are a lot of us who are whole, and healed, and ready to take action……with Christ, and with a strategy from Heaven. This is a spiritual battle. We won’t win without discernment.

   ~Heather Thompson (Bryant now)
   CLC 1980-1992
   FCF 1992-1995

9. DB on March 21st, 2010 8:24 pm

   Heather,

   I am so sorry for what happened to you and your family and I appreciate your heart that is toward reconcilliation, honestly, I do.

   I wonder how high is the cost for some people. You were not safe within the walls of this family of churches. Whatever happened to you happened at least 18 years ago, Noel’s story is almost a decade old, there are whispers of others. Why, my heart begs, is this allowed to continue? Because, I believe, there is a culture within this org. that favors some at the expense of others. Alpha males, for example are favored at the expense of little girls.
   I am in favor of holding Larry T and CA’s feet to the fire because they were partially responsible for creating this family of churches, they were alpha males for many years and sat in their esteemed and influencial positions and made names for themselves such that most of us know who the heck they are.

   They are somewhat public figures and when much is given, much is also expected.

   I expect these men to get the ‘nads to stand up and advocate for innocents instead of allowing their silence to cast an unwitting vote for the alpha males that have way too much power and privilege.

10. acme on March 21st, 2010 8:41 pm

    Well said, Heather!  Thank you for telling your story–and that of your parents as well.  I’m so sorry you all were hurt like that.
    Your family has been very important to me–although we haven’t had contact in a long time.  I cleaned your grandparents’ house in Greenbelt right after college, worked on the Visitation/Hospitality team for your dad, and said “I do” when your dad officiated my wedding.
    Prayer is fundamental, not supplemental–and I agree that no Moses is likely to come talk to SGM’s pharoah.
    However, it is so important to be able to talk through what happened, to know that we weren’t alone and we weren’t crazy.  That’s why blogs like this–and survivors–and refuge as so essential.

11. musicman on March 22nd, 2010 3:13 pm

    Heather-
    Breaks my heart to hear your story,  I’m sorry and also angry that these people are blind to their lack of action.  The sin of fear that they commit every day that they let, yet another tale of sexual abuse within SGM go unresolved.
    Thanks for your honesty and for sharing your heart.
     
    peace to you & your family-mm

12. Sandy Thompson on March 22nd, 2010 5:03 pm

    That’s my girl!!  What’s interesting is the thought that comes to me now having read her blog is that God made her to be a STRONG, INDEPENDENT WOMAN and that did not fit into the SGM grid.  Severe pressure was applied to us, her parents, to “fix her”, to the point that at 6 weeks old, on a pastor’s retreat, when Heather woke up crying we were told in no uncertain terms to discipline her for her “bad attitude”!  Yeah!  At 6 weeks old.  THAT SHOULD have been our wake up call!   Oh how I wish we had not been so blind that we couldn’t see.  BUT – GOD IS FAITHFUL! and HE turns all sorrow into joy and uses all of our experiences to shape us to reveal HIS SON through us.  To HIM be the glory! 

13. DB on March 22nd, 2010 8:24 pm

    Sandy,

    God bless you for not listening to people telling you to discipline a six week old infant for crying. Thank you! Thank you! And, have you noticed that the spirited, hard to parent children oftentimes have some unique challenge later on in life for which tenacity and general strong willed qualities are actually benificial to their growth or even their very survival. My thirdborn daughter (yes, God bless strong women) was one of those whose spirit would never be broken (or her will, thank God.) She ended up a Marine that served with honor in Iraq and she *needed* to be strong for that experience.

    I wish I could hug both of you but isn’t it nice to know that our kids are *normal* and *healthy* and their behaviors are (in general) normal and healthy; they aren’t wretched hopeless little sinners that need vigiliant parents that are committed to beating the sin nature right out of their backsides.

    I’m so completely thrilled that Jesus took care of the little childish splinter-sins as well as my big nasty grown up plank-sins and that Hiw work was *finished* no other requirements including whatever draconian methods were recommrended against a six week old infant!

14. John Immel on March 23rd, 2010 12:40 am

    Heather or Mrs. Thompson (thanks for posting BTW) … I need your help here to ferret out some things.  I had it in my head that you were Anonymous… the commenter that inspired this post.  But you have identified yourself as maiden name Thompson?  Daughter of Chuck and Sandy.
     
    Uhhh… from your beginning comments I gathered that you were continuing Anony’s conversation.  But Anony said they were a member of the Tomczak family.  Sooo… just trying to understand your proximity to this whole dealeo.

    BTW:  how is your father?  If I have the people behind the name right I drove Larry in DC to see Mr. Thompson when he had a (heart attach?) Some years ago.     Assuming I have the right family … just wanna know he recovered fine.

     

    Anyway… thanks for the details and I am still pondering my response. 

15. Heather on March 23rd, 2010 9:33 am

    Hey, John. Yeah, this whole internet communication deal isn’t my fave. You can’t read a person’s body language, or hear their tone, etc. That’s why I prefaced my first post with how I was wanting to come across, but even then I think it’s still hard to “get” what someone is truly trying to communicate.

    I guess to simplify my opinion I could’ve said that I agree with your concept wholeheartedly (people being held accountable, etc.) I just wasn’t in favor with the way it appeared to have been gone about. That was pretty much it.

    I just know that God hasn’t forgotten PDI/SGM. I believe He will continue to gather alot of us together to use us, but at the end of the day it will be to Him all the Glory & not a reflection on us “men” who have shaken SGM. I see you as someone who pioneered (cliché, I know) an opportunity for us to gather and re-connect so that maybe something can really begin to come together. I certainly don’t object to people “venting”, and working through the anger & pain together. Shoot, I thought I was overreacting and possibly even “in sin” for years after I left because I thought I was the only one. I think sites that are conducive to healing are wonderful. I was just concerned in the level of, what appeared for me to be, a level of vindictiveness that I was concerned about. I took away that you were coming across quite vengeful, and that really only hurts one’s credibility in being used in this situation. It can’t possibly help. (Though the anger is absolutely justified.)
    But I know that wasn’t the direction you were meaning to go in. I see where you are trying to go. I am going to the same place. I have spent a long time trying to figure out how to get there, and I believe God is speaking to alot of us.

    I just personally think it’s critical in how we go about this. I don’t believe the Lord is going to use Larry or Che to bring “peace” to SGM. I think it is beyond that. And I don’t think we can make someone (forcibly) be held accountable. We’re kind of past that stage in the level of corruption. Those men are mere branches to the main trunk, the main root of the problem. (And they too were men who were jerked around eventually by SGM, whether they were apart of the original problem to begin with or not.) I thought the avenue in which you were trying to hold Larry accountable was ineffective, and throwing salt on wounds. You may be 100% right, but the delivery (just in my opinion) was disappointing because I do believe God is bringing people forth to help deal with SGM, and I see you as one of them.

    It would be very interesting if in the future alot of us could get together and have time to talk, and pray, and to share. There is a lot I would love to say, but I don’t feel “safe” sharing it for lord  only knows who could be reading this……but then again this should be considered gossip so maybe no one is reading.
    

    Yes! We are the family you are thinking of. My dad is doing great!!! Thank you for asking. Man, that was about 10 years ago! He is healthy, and looking good as always. I can’t seem to place who you are. Is there an email address on here somewhere so there is a way to communicate more personally?

    And to everyone else- Thank you so much for the encouragement to me & my mom! I think this has been a monumental first for us concerning this topic. So thank you. It meant a lot. I am sure this is just the beginning of much more to come……I ain’t goin’ NO where!

     

     

     

     

16. theodore on March 24th, 2010 5:25 pm

    I have been looking at post’s here for a while…and decided that I could not be silent any longer…I was a part of TAG, the core group,Gathering of Believers,Silver Spring,Gaithersburg and eventually Covenant Life  from 1974-1985…my wife was a part of the Georgetown prayer group that Larry had before Tag even started…I was close friends with many of the folks mentioned here on thjs blog…in particular Larry,Che,Chuck Thompson etc…

    the underlying  problem I have with remarks about some of these are an enigma to myself…some of the people mentioned that were eventually released ,kicked out or whatever you call it , were also very much a part of doing the exact same thing to others for years before they were “relieved of duty”…and  feeling sorry for them, for me  is something that I have a hard time with…they merely recieved the same treatment that they themselves either directly or indirectly dished out…Chuck Thompson(original leader of the gaithersburg segment of Covenant Life) and Roger Dylan(CJ’s brother in law) both came and told me that the church no longer had faith for myself or my family…be cited that I was not teachable,thought more highly of my self than I should, and did not comply with the new dress code adequately(suit and tie)…and finally did not raise my hands enough during worship…yikes…what a mouthful…granted I was not , and am still not in any way perfect, but I was just an artist trying towork out his salvation…and be a Godly father and husband…and also do as much as I could to help anyone I could in the church…the main problem I think is that CJ never really liked me…Gary Riccucci told me one time that he percieved me as a “working class hero”…and that the challenge given by the blue collar type constituted a form of disagreement that the leaders were not comfortable with…what I mean is this…people that actually worked every day were not the same as the leaders…many of whom never held a real job prior to ministry there…Larry did work for the trade union a while and wrote a book…Chuck was a paper salesman …but most others(at that time) never held anything but a part time job…CJ in particular…not that it absoloutely mattered I guess…but they did not have a true understanding of how it was to actually have to deal with some of the difficulties out there in the world…you know things like getting laid off…making grocery money work…keeping a vehicle running on a paycheck…just regular everyday things you were protected from when you got a handsome(by standards then)salary every week guaranteed…

    I was a foreman in the construction company owned by two church member then…with our crew all going to Covent Life(GOB first) …and was friends with many. I was the guy that set up & organized work days etc to help folks get additions built, extra rooms finished or whatever was needed…Chucks downstairs was just one example, Bill Farrs super addition another …I was the first softball coach for the new gaithersburg church…participated in the “food coop” too…and generally was emersed into the church and its activities for men and families…as was my wife…but I never really fit in…maybe because of my upbringing,education,I dont really know for sure…but to be judged as such a rebel just because I did not agree with everything did not, and after 25 years still does not make any sense for me…I was slandered immediately upon being asked to leave…and was shunned by all my supposed “friends” that I had known for over ten years…my three sons could no longer go the the school…and my wife was no longer befriended with any she had know so long…  something that took a decade to get over …and something that many years later still has some difficulties associated with it…so to hear the story of these folks and their hardships are a bit hard to swallow…sorry about your luck…but maybe “what comes around, goes around” applies here a bit…or how about reaping what you sow…

    Chuck & Roger…these were both fellow’s that I was very close with, and knew quite well…this , however did not keep them from following CJ’s order to lose me and my family…

    so as far as I am concerened their troubles seem a bit disingenuos to me…the motives that they had back then are unknown to me…but there actions were just as cruel, elitist & harmful as any one elses…maybe one day they woke up and relized that they were doing some things wrong…and they disagreed with the Apostolic team(kiss of death)…so be it…but they never ever came to me and expressed their apology…or for that fact anyone else I know that were unchurched etc…

    I spoke w/ Mr Tomczak a few years ago…and he was very much the victim then…geeze Larry…maybe now you know how it felt a bit…not taking one slight bit of responsibility for any of his actions from then either…maybe it was hard for him and Doris??but never the same way as a lot of other folks that were slandered,maligned or rejected…but a leadership version…LOL…Che never responded to me either…I knew him since High School…I was just another goat that they decided was not perfect enough for their ministry…

    The legal term “clean hands” applies here as far as I am concerned…those that were a part of the wrong doing  should not be allowed to act as if they are victims…maybe they should be glad that The Lord showed them the way out so that they would not hurt anymore folks !

    bottom line…its been a few years indeed…I always admired the leader’s in so many ways…and alsways did my best to try and comply as much as possible…but in the end I think now they blew it not only with myself and my family, but many ,many others…the lives they discarded could have been a major part of doing truly God’s will , if only they did not have such ego’s and self absed opinions…

    I pray that some day CJ does realize this…and change his ways… however “absoloute power corrupts absoloutely” may just be the most truthful statement about all this…which is indeed sad…I hold no bitterness or unforgiveness towards  them…I do pray for them every once in a while…especially after reading how many others were hurt over the years…

    all the best…ted

17. theodore on March 24th, 2010 5:28 pm

    I should add…if any of these statement’s need substantiation this is of course possible…I will do so 100%…however I am not willing to put my email address on the internet openly…if the webmaster wants he can contact me…t

18. theodore on March 24th, 2010 6:56 pm

    sorry…site timed out…I should also underline the remarks of Chuck & Sandy’s daughter were fully noticed…more testimony of some sad going’s on…I just want folks to know that there are some stories out there that need to be heard…I just wish that my good friend (at the time) Chuck was a bit more dialed in…my wife and I both read the remarks pertinent now…and quite frankly , they really evoked some deep feelings indeed…but what about all those that are crying to God still?? he hears them…and will heal anyone that does not hold bitterness…

    I was 30 years old back then…(when I was unchurched)…I am 55 now…wow…thats a long time to still be current with all this…my three sons were affected in ways that I still pray about every day. I though am not a meek mannered fellow anymore as I was then in 1985…quite the contrary , I will stand up against any bully that would “subjigate the meek”  in any way…I became a more confident individual because of all the atrocities …and also a more sensitive person realizing that many peopole in the church have been hurt, wounded & destroyed in the name of so called “righteous doctrine”…CJ would not want to have to me testify about any of this if there actually were a court that would hear the matter…My Heavenly Father required me to give up those rights a long time ago so I could be free…and move on with my life…

    PS to Chuck’s daughter…I hope your life is good and full…and that you achieve all your goals…and that your parents are well…I only wish that I could have grown with them to an older age!…these are things that were precluded from my life due to certain circumstances I believe beyond my control..I knew your folks way back when they were neighbors w/ Larry and Doris…your Dad and I were truly friends at one point…he pitched on the softball team I coached…I know that may sound silly…but those days are ones that I am to this day fond of…

    I am glad that God dwells in eternity…and he does not hold onto anything he does not want to…I ascribe to those traits …not always successfully…but indeed my intent is such…ted coughlin

19. Heather on March 24th, 2010 9:57 pm

    Ted, I remember you. Of course I was young, but I do. I remember walking through our basement off of Ridge Heights Drive when you were building it for us. I also remember softball. I actually pitched in my late teens years.

    What’s so upsetting is that like for you, it was also many people’s first “experience” with Christianity. I know this was the first “Jesus” my parents ever knew. They were “saved” through TAG. My dad was discipled, or whatever you want to call it, by CJ & Larry and that was that. The amount of fear that is slowly instilled to the leaders is so thick, and so deceptive, that I truly believe many pastors were not even conscious of their maliciousness. I spent years HATING my parents. But finally one day, about 6 years ago, I realized that they just didn’t know. I realized that they truly had believed a lie & actually thought they were raising me correctly, and doing the very best for me as parents. It was then that I could forgive without any forgiveness being asked, and begin to get to know my parents for who they have become now. I don’t hold them responsible for their ignorance. I really do believe they had no grid for what true Christianity looks like. There was just no discernment, and no confidence. It may have taken 20 years, but eventually my dad had the nerve to question authority, and then eventually just say to hell with it and walk out. I am so thankful that happened. There is a lot of shame & humiliation for a man to realize that after 20 something years he was being controlled like a little puppet for someone else’s agenda. It’s a hard pill to swallow, and a blast to manhood in general.

    I am so sorry that your family was so hurt. Those words don’t bring justice to what I am trying to communicate. It’s just such a mess. The crappy thing is that really only those who went through it can vouch that this really happened. On the outside “they” look like wonderful people who are gifted in hospitality. It’s not like outsiders have pity on us because we survived a polygamist cult, or a weird sex ring of some sort. That would’ve been easier because at least the “sin” or “weirdness” would’ve been obvious. It’s so validating to hear other’s stories. It DID happen. It STILL is happening.

    I am doing well. Thanks for caring. I know it is genuine, and that means a lot. Though I feel as if I am a very strong woman of God, I needed many many therapy sessions, prayer groups (once I could actually trust “Christians” again) and time to heal. I didn’t crack the Bible for years…….but now I literally can’t put it down out of hunger for Him, not obligated quiet times. I also went through years of “junk” from the sexual abuse. You would know both of the men since you were there from the beginning. I don’t want to publicly comment on that because I am not convinced that I won’t ever have a chance with legal action. I am almost certain I could find other victims by “them”. But I am afraid that if those children, now adults, are still a part of CLC that they would never come forward with me. That’s why I pray fervently that the Holy Spirit moves in power, because that is my only hope.

    My parents & I have an unusually close relationship. My dad has become my best friend. We talk daily. He encourages me to be the best, strong independent, woman  that I can. He has come to love my sass, my spunk, and my natural God given leadership within the church (NOT children’s or women’s ministry)…….I help lead worship. Imagine that?! A female worship leader. Unheard of.

    My parents are still not in “ministry”, but they minister everywhere they go. Isn’t that what Jesus did anyway? I feel very whole, but there are still many places of sorrow, and “what if only’s” in my heart. I honestly can’t say that I have any fond memories within CLC or FCC. I never felt accepted, and thought something was perpetually wrong with me. Add the “other” abuse on top of that and by 17 I was in drug rehab out in Utah. But what didn’t kill me has only made me more of a fighter. I just try and let the Lord lead those battles now. I realized that my own human strength and methods of healing didn’t work. At 19 was when I truly felt like I gave my heart to the Lord on MY OWN. It was then that I truly called myself a follower of Christ, and allowed the healing to take place. I will be 30 this fall. Thank God for His faithfulness.

    I am not sure what other’s are thinking, or sensing, or desiring, but it seems like God is really up to something. Or maybe that is just me. I am one who won’t go to my grave without continuing to pursue the Lord on His plans for SGM. I know that He desires their hearts just the same as mine. (That comes after 15 years of therapy and years of wishing death upon them.) All I know is this; God WILL hold them all accountable one day. There are those who have reconciled their hearts with Christ already, and those that better do so because I wouldn’t want to stand before the Throne with this on my hands. My forgiveness towards them will mean nothing at point. They need the Lord’s forgiveness.

    Oh how I wish we could organize a gathering. A weekend somewhere. Maybe one day we can all work to set that up. Until then I hope we can all remain in contact. I say this not as a Christian curtsy, but I truly will keep your family in prayer. Thank you for sharing this, Ted. I can mean it when I say, “Yep, I totally know.”

     

     

     

     

     

20. theodore on March 24th, 2010 10:15 pm

    I never thought when I decided to post here and also on the refuge site(last week) that there would be so much come out of it…I can honestly say I have not thought about this stuff for a long time…at least on the surface…but in reality I have been affected a lot more than I care to admit…I don’t want to say that it has crippled me more than it has, but after reading your story, and your intense honesty and candid remarks, I cant help but believe that there are so many people that have real deep wounds still, including myself and my Sons…it is a bit overwhelming indeed…and to me what is so incredible that God may be healing something in me through the daughter of someone I considered a perpetrator …at least in the long time ago way of looking at things…

    I truly have been given the gift of forgivness for all involved…and sometimes it is a bit surrealistic even thnking about events past…and now writing about it…I think something must be over the horizon for me and Bea , dealing with this stuff now seems a bit un neccesary…but I think it must truly be the Lord…thanks for sharing…and my best to your folks…t

21. Juli on March 24th, 2010 11:59 pm

    Heather and Theodore…Thank you for your honesty and transparency in your comments, despite the fact of a very public audience. Reading your words felt like I was listening in on a very personal, private conversation full of love and that I was seeing the healing hand of God at work in others….but it also felt like a balm to my own wearied soul.  Two years ago I found the blogs exposing and discussing SGM and after a year I started tapering off my reading and posting, first on one site, then another….
    I stopped reading and posting because it became like salt in the wound, and not a balm to help heal. I wanted to move past the pain and hurt faster than I was able to, and in the process actually opened myself to further pain and hurt…
    But your words encouraged me tonight and put me at peace. I ran into some people from my former church today at the park for a homeschooling get together. I hadn’t seen them in months. They are still shunning me after two years. And it still hurts like it was April 2008. This has weighed heavily on my mind all day, and I guess God knew I needed some perspective and prompted me to come on this site to read your words…..so, I broke my rule not to post or read and am glad I did, if only to say thank you my brother and my sister….May God continue his healing work in both your families…Juli

22. theodore on March 25th, 2010 10:55 am

    after reading your post Juli I realize just how huge & widespread all this tragedy has become…I guess we should be grateful that this movement in 35 years has only grown as much as it has…

    if there is one bit of advice I can give it is this…2008 is really yesterday, some folks have been dealing(some not so effectively) with all this for a very,very long time…myself since 1985…I did not deal with matters well for over ten years  affecting not only myself horribly, but also my family…some things are still unsettled to this day because of not fixing things sooner. Things like this can be a catylyst to make other things in our lives go out of control…thats why its so important getting solid counsel and help asap, and not allowing the roots of any kind of bitterness take hold. I had to forget the injustice and unfairness entirely…that’s God’s department . I also had to come to the reality that God never forsake me or gave up on me as the Leaders in my life then did regardless of how things went down.

    I read the stories in the Bible of folks that endured many years of bad times as a part of their journey … I can relate in my own personal way …not that I am some kind of hero, to the contrary, but someone that realizes the fraility of us as people…and why we are compared to sheep so many times.

    I hope and pray that this forum and others like it can be used to help some of the folks out there that are searching for an answer to all this…I cant even begin to put my arms around the scope of all this, not even close ! but I do firmly believe that God is more than able to mend and heal us all.

    as far as the old members you run into…my advice is avoid them like the plague…all they will d0 is to reopen wounds, thats the way they deal with the things they dont understand…they know something is wrong, but they are conditioned to maintain the tribal line to protect their own consciences…I think after reading Heathers description of what happened to her family it should be obvious that this is a situation of epic proportions, and is insidious in its ability to fog peoples senses, logic and wisdom.

    I am also quite sure that these writings are not unnoticed by those we are discussing…in the age of google and the internet etc I would be very surprised if there arent people specifacally designated to keep track of all these things…and if possible undermine or sabotage things if they are able. This is a wildfire to them that is a direct challenge to all they believe in for sure..so be it…  I am sure it is quite annoying to CJ and the rest that there are people praying for them to have the veil removed from their eyes…LOL…but nevertheless I do and will continue to , so I can  protect my own heart from hurt. When in doubt pray for those that have oppressed you and yours…its a sure way to check your own heart and attitude to make sure God can do the maximum for us in getting healed.

    all the best…t

23. theodore on March 25th, 2010 12:28 pm

    I think re reading the posts has really opened my eyes a bit more…the deep sense of emotion and reality that all this has caused others is overwhelming to myself and my wife…we are talking about things left unspoken for a long time again…lots of question marks for sure…not really any “what if’s”, more on the line of this…what this group had evolved to by 1985 was not somewhere that I now look back at and would ever want to do again…that said , it does not discount the fact that the things perpertraited by the leadership was in any way OK…and that there was a serious breach of trust, and moreso a brutal & maliscious assault on my family. These are things like the abuse mentioned by Heather that can be somehow swept under the rug…but  can make me only cringe with fear at what might happen…it is truly a very heavy and fearful thing considering the judgement of God, not something that should be in any way considered lightly… actually avoided like an incredible bright light that sees all…and is not in any way intimidated by mans decisions to hurt his childern. Very heavy and scary stuff to anyone that is honest here.

    OK…what do we do now?? talking today after breakfast w/ my wife , I probably have more questions now then ever before. After about hearing what Happened to Chuck & Sandy…I must admit I am confronted with some emotions that I never thought possible…for sure remorse for them…but also an insight into the whole thing a bit more…like I said earlier, that the daugher of the same person so instrumental in my departure, was now saying kind words to me…never in a million years …also that someone else spent so many years doing something that now is no longer a focus in his life…I spun my wheels a good bit for a long time because I never felt or understood why something that was so influential in my early Christian life, could also be such a destructive force…

    I grew up a Catholic and met Christ only about a year before I started attending TAG in ‘74 …I used top do illicit things w/ Che in high school…and he and I both started going to TAG at the same time since we both had a salvation experience (or in his case a recommitment) at the same basic time..he had a car and was always driving us to some bible study or meeting…my wife and I met @ TAG too…we were one of the first marriages of the group back then after CJ & Carolyn , Bill Patton & Sue…and we had twins 10 months later…so for me this was more than a rejection of a group…but a total way of life ripped away from me…not a very good representation of God’s love or purpose for me(and of course the other 4 important people to me in my life) .. at least as far as I could comprehend anyway… my youngest son refers to my wife and I now following Christ as christian s###…something that is a direct result of being removed from his life back at the school he attended as a child… all my boys were affected…think about it…being a part of a community of little people and all of a sudden be ing told that you can no longer play with or have anything to do with all your friends and classmates(even though they still were neighbors etc)…back in those days we all tried to live in as close a proximity as possible to the other church members… and when you were no longer welcome it was a hard time for all…we had to move and relocate just to avoid the reminder of what happened…

    OK…enough from the time machine…all I can say is that it has taken my adult life to readjust and come to some acceptance of all that happened…and like I said at the outset…what do we do now??

    I cannot underscore too much how important it is for anyone that has experienced what we are talking about here to get some help to cope…this whole internet thing is not a comfortable format for me…but writing is…so I just am imagining someone out there that is in a quagmire in their life because of what happened to them…and beg them to forgive #1…and to seek out good help in dealing with things immediately…and not waste so many years as I did…I pray that our Heavely Father would bestow on you a grace and understanding to “knock off the dust”, and regain self esteem and confidence before his throne… and learn what it really means to forgive those that have hurt us…

    sorry for being so long winded…but a lot of things are coming to the surface for me after finding this site… ted

24. Defended on March 25th, 2010 1:44 pm

    Heather, Theodore, John Immel, thank you all for your sharing and writing styles.   I honestly appreciate them all.

    Heather my heart breaks for what you have been through, yet I join you in praising God that He  has used all the junk as a tool to strengthen and build you and refine you like precious gold.

    Ted, I think the reason I am posting now is to validate you. I will never forget the time when we spoke with an fcc cgl about the lacking grace and “former” legalism that had been the rule in fcc, and I (bluntly) asked him if he had considered his own responsibility  in implementing that system and imposing said legalism on others.  He looked at me stunned seemingly shocked that I could ask such a thing.  Likewise another guy (years later) who ducked out of the way when a pastor took to trying to shame me and “bring (me) before the church” looked stunned when I asked him if he had considered how he could have used his leadership position to protect me instead of just getting out of the way, with no one but my husband to defend me for whatever the pastor wanted to do.
    I think that it is only fair to have a certain amount of reaction when someone who used abuse of authority is then saddened or feeling the victim when they receive the same treatment they do or did to others. 

    I appreciate that at the time Chuck, Larry or others may not have been knowingly “abusing” their power or authority but I would personally love to have Mr. Thompson post here to express his sorrow over his own actions much more than hearing from his daughter (or wife) about the sad state of affairs back then.  I believe you (Heather) that you wouldn’t wish on anyone what happened to you, or your family.  And I agree that accepting that that type of authority was all they (your parents) knew back then.  But still.

    God bless you all.  He is worthy of all praise and I, too, thank God for the injustice that we experienced for the sake of our learning, and God’s holy, loving refining fire.

25. musicman on March 25th, 2010 2:50 pm

    Well said Defended,  I admire your courage as you spoke bluntly to those who might have helped you, but instead ran for cover.  While I understand why someone would do it, given the culture, it does not excuse it or make it right.
    I think for many of these former leaders, pastors or otherwise, it might do their souls good to admit their part in an abusive culture that has run rough shod over Man, Woman, and child that did not kneel before it’s leaders and their demands.
     
    To Heather and Theodore, thanks for being so vulnerable with your lives, pain, and healing journeys.

26. Heather on March 25th, 2010 3:32 pm

    Oh, I completely understand what it would mean to just have a form of aknowledgement from the leader’s. Even in ignorance a lost soul is still requited to repent before the Lord in order to receive salvation. Ignorance doesn’t = grace or pardons in the Lord’s eyes. That’s why He bestows grace, BECAUSE we were ignorants to our empty lives without Him. Likewise goes to former, and still in command, leadreship.

    It feels like a double whammy for me, so to speak, to not only have been so abused by PDI, but to have had my dad be a key player in the hurts of other’s lives. I will admit that there was a bit of fear for me to post because I am Chuck’s daughter. I half assumed I would be treated unfairly.The feeling is just too upsetting to express. Thank you all for being so loving and understanding towards me. It’s definitely an akward position to be in, but I do understand.

    I get to see, and hear how my dad has changed, and I only wish that one day each and every one who was personally, and even inpersonally hurt by my dad, can somehow know how sorry he is about the entire ordeal. It would’ve been easier for our family to have grown up “unchurched” and have met the Lord later in life than it was to re-learn who Jesus really is these past 14 years since we’ve left.

    Man……I am sorry….I am just very overwhelmed right now.
    God is bigger. That’s all I know.

27. theodore on March 25th, 2010 4:22 pm

    I keep running in from my shop to see what folks are saying…I cant understand fully Heather whats its like to have the “double whammy” effect…but lets just say its most likely relative to what others went through…and I hope that no one ever is unkind to you as you put it…there has been way too much of that already dont you think??

    We all have to deal with this stuff in our own way…but I cant help but thinking that the Holy Spirit is orchestrating all this..not only for us, but also for Chuck too(and many,many others)…he needs it as much as anyone…and the fact that he was a part of some not so nice things does not matter to me in the least now…if he wants to recant his actions..thats up to him…but forgivness is supposed to be one sided isnt it?…when God forgave all our sins he did it with no desire to remember them…and that is our example I feel…

    I think a lot of folks here could be helped a lot if they had that attitude…God will vindicate…but when we worry too much about those things there is nothing but death in the end…JMHO…of course we cant forget those times…I know I cant…but I want to never hold those passions of anger and hatred in my heart again…they were the reason it has taken me so long to get better…spell that still getting better…ted

28. DB on March 25th, 2010 4:49 pm

    Heather,

    I kind of get what you’re saying and I am really touched by your, your mom’s and Theodore’s heart. I know some of the people mentioned from way back when and some people here and there is a little ache in my heart for the damage, the years that cannot be given back, and the time and heart-energy invested in relationships that were taken away as a form of shunning. I believe having these fori in which we can share our hearts with one another even though every one of us feels a shiver of fear run through us because of the legalism that we were steeped in for so many years; but we *can* discuss it without fear of being punished because we’re *free* and, to some of us, these discussion boards are places for us to take baby steps and discusss what has been locked up inside us for so many years.
    And none of us has been struck down by proverbial lilghtning.

    We’re free indeed.

29. DB on March 25th, 2010 4:51 pm

    Oh, and Heather, you remind me of one of my daughters. She works with my husband and they are very close to one another. You almost quoted one of her favorite lines, “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” She is one of the bravest strongest young women I know so that is a compliment

30. Steve240 on March 26th, 2010 9:34 am

    One thing that should be pointed out about Larry Tomczak is that the group he now works for I.C.E.C.A.P. (International Center for Evangelism, Church-planting And Prayer) is an offshoot of the group Every Nations.  Every Nations was founded some of the “lieutenants” of Maranatha Ministries which is a now defunct college campus ministry that was known for spiritual abuse and shepharding practices perhaps even worse than Sovereign Grace Ministries.  Their main leader was Bob Weiner.

    Every Nations supposedly renounced the practices of their former group Maranatha but accounts by various people indicate that at least some of the practices of Maranatha remain.  There doesn’t appear to be a conscious effort by that group to change from their abusive past.  Thus like the child whow grew up in abusive home who isn’t alert to making sure he doesn’t repeat the mistakes of his parents, they are bound to repeat the practices of what former group they were a part of.

    With that said, if Tomczak is apparently currently part of a spiritually abusive church or one that leans that way it is doubtful that he would even want to speak out against the abuses in Sovereign Grace Ministries.  Tomczak may be more inclined to see more problems with their doctrine vs. how the church structure is set up.
     
     
    Steve240´s last blog ..Does Kissing Dating Goodbye Lead to Kissing Marriage Goodbye?

31. John Immel on March 26th, 2010 10:18 am

    Hey all…

    Need to welcome some Folk.   Heather, if I haven’t thanked you for comments and questions yet… I do now.  It is good stuff and I do want to address the substance a little later.

    Ted…outstanding contribution, thanks for your thoughts.   Defended… good to see you here.  Thanks for words. Glad you like my style.  I got a lot more of that coming little later today.

    And Steve… excellent point… I contend that the biggest reason for the silence is because a vast percentage of church leaders are in intellectual solidarity with SGM assumptions.  They absolve themselves of action because they see the problem as misplaced degree.  SGM just goes “too far,” but in the grand scheme this is just a bunch of kids resisting the wisdom of an over strict father.

    And as always Musicman, DB thanks for your insights and compassion.

    More to say about all this in a very little bit: Fun, Frolic and Frothing at the mouth to come.

    Yee haaww!

32. Steve240 on March 26th, 2010 10:34 am

    One other item is that Larry Tomczak was the one that originally introduced “kissing dating goodbye” to PDI/SGM.  He had a book that talked about doing things in groups vs. dating called “Straightforward.”  This came out in 1978.   There was also a teaching tape that he had out talking about this practice.
     
    Especially in the teaching tape, Tomczak said he didn’t want the policy to become something legalistic.  It was like it was presented as more of a guideline vs. a hard rule or maybe you first do things in groups to get to know someone.  Unfortunately the policy quickly become something quite legalistic.  From what I have heard, neither Tomczak nor any of the other leaders ever did much to either admit this problem to make changes.
     
    This is just another example that maybe when Larry Tomczak could have done something about a situation he either didn’t recognize it or chose not to do something about it.  Maybe he started a train going that he couldn’t stop?  One person told me that leaders chose to hear what they wanted to hear.  Apparently the leaders in PDI/SGM chose only to hear good things about “kissing dating goodbye” vs. any of the problems it created.
     
    Steve
    http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com

33. Heather on March 26th, 2010 11:03 am

    John- HA HA HA! The “frothing at the mouth” comment got me. This has been great, John. Thanks for the site, and the kind words.

    I’ll be sure to have papertowels later for the froth, and be sure to relieve my bladder in case of laughing too hard……(and I am sure I will roll my eyes at you a few time & sigh with fond frustration, but nonetheless I know we actually agree on the content.) :-p

34. theodore on March 26th, 2010 11:43 am

    I could not agree more with you Steve…a train that could not be stopped…this is a very good analogy indeed…Larry in all his charismatic &  persuasive personality somewhow did not get the responsibility gene that for sure comes with true leadership.Also thos whom he discipled ! I posted on the refuge site that I likened the going’s on back then to 20 MBA’s vying for 5 positions… The incredible competition for a seat close to one of the Duo was overwhelming. Many of the procedures and techniques used by Larry would be great for a wall street house…and is exactly the way many things were done there, but does (and did) not equate to the proper and annointed way to build a church or ministry…( I feel an excellent example of a builder is Chuck Smith and the Calvary Chapel movement) and after seeing the outcomes  I think if there is any one point to describe where they went off the track that would be it.

    Then throw in some subjacating  doctrines that help manage the troops…and you have it…the group you speak of (related to Bob Weiner) and the new association is very intersting(but not surprising)…Mr Weiner was a “spark plug” type enlisted several times when CLCC was in its infancy… one of many mentors that were “auditioned” back in the day…all these young men(in the leadership) realized I believe ,to their plus, that they were indeed inadequate for some of the tasks they were confronted with on a daily basis due to their relative inexperience on Life in general, and needed some input from outside…some of the names I must admit I cant remember…but another that immediately comes to mind is Charles Schmidt…he and his wife were also icon’s at one point until some unfortunate situations developed around 1981…after that episode is when in my opinion CJ really made his move…Larry at that time was more of a “sent one” leaving the home base under CJ’s direction & care…his bent was that of an “Apostle” , not so much of a Pastor etc…

    Another factor that has not been mentioned to my knowledge , but does deserve some serious note , the wives of the leadership …in particular Carolyn & Janice…(CJ’s & Roger Dylan’swife) they came from a mennonoite background, not the most strict type…but definetely a commited one…I believe there  father was a pastor…and I remember that CJ & Roger would always be going down to Bradenton back in the day …and most likely being influenced a bit by that way of thinking…The sisters younger brother was almost automatically moved into a leadership role … someone I had encounters with doing construction work for the church back then…this is when I personally saw the new hiarchy developing…and began to be very uncomfortable with it…serious discrepancies for me as far as real talent or ability’s for jobs in the church…and more on family relationship to the leaders…and when that was not present a devout following and subserveance to them… 

    I recently looked the SGM site out of curiosity and saw the bio’s about leadership…most folks dont know this…but is was(and is ) a full on family affair…Gary married CJ’s younger sister,CJ & Roger married the sisters, the younger brother inherited a spot…very similar to the way marriage has in history secured a power base permentely…

    as far back as 1974 there was a definite boundary between the leaders…CJ & Larry would swap tuesday nights…and many followed Larry more etc…a lot of the old catolic prayer group were more attached to Larry because of his background…I remmeber distinctly when Che was seeking more time w/ Larry than CJ( I spent almost every day w/ Che)… to help him move on with his desire for a mega ministry… he wanted to disciple me in the way that was popular then( I relented)…the FT Lauderdale group..Don Bashum,Bob Mumford,Derek Prince & that bunch…was for sure an influence…however the official joining never took place…however the concept definetely did…probably the denomination line for me was the intensity of that …this is where I was noted different…I somehow had this strange concept that a mentor or discipler should be someone I respected and admired…not someone I played basketball & tennis with…and that had met Christ at the same time I did…but the way it worked was the ones who got closer(or sucked up if you prefer) are the ones that got the front row seats as it were in relationship to the pecking order… at one point it became like a group of henchman…in particular Jim Golden…an ex biker turned confidente for Larry…this is when it started to get really out of hand in my mind…and the seperation began too…between CJ and his group…and Larry…

    back in those days there was no internet but the mailman was still important…mailing lists were the weapon of choice…I remember the day our soft ball team was getting ready for a game…Larry and I were warming up throwing…CJ,Brent and Larry were talking about some individual that had left…and sent out a letter of rebuke to them all…I saw some attitudes that shocked me, this was someone from the new Fairfax group that I did not know…but the words shared were more like mobsters andI knew then that what was portrayed on the outside was not really who these guys were…I was considered some how “cool” I guess to even be allowed to hear such remarks…and that day I had a lot more questions than I did answers…somehow the person that I did not know who had sent out the flyer(which we all were told to discard) may be on to something…??

    These were of course things that could never be mentioned
    in public…  excommunication would surely follow… but thats probably when I knew that this was not a good place and I started to look at everything with different eyes…and do the unthinkable, and adopt opinions of my own based on what I was seeing…over the next year is when I fell from grace , and eventually was booted…

    this is when my time “in country” ended…along with any factual remarks I could contribute… the rest is as they say…history…somehow they expanded to a level un believeable to me…dozens and dozens of churches…and also most likely scores of wounded and abused discardee’e… how they can sleep at night is beyond me… I just pray that one day I will have an understanding in my spirit why all this has happened…and that the folks like myself and the others I read about here will have a peace and be able to move on and be productive for Christ…t

35. theodore on March 26th, 2010 12:44 pm

    a follow up…sorry, but lately this is taking “front and center” for me…

    My wife just asked me what I expected to accomplish by all this…very good question… I believe a lot more is going on here than some garden variety blog…I have been confronted in my spirit this last month about some very serious issues…some long overdue…and this forum alongwith the refuge one have been the spark or catylyst fort me…so maybe this wont bless you…but if you dont mind I will speak my peace(even more)LOL…

    I have spent 25 years being held back by all this…and not realizing that until I began writing…thats a long time to be perplexed about something…I dont have bitterness…but I do have scars that cover old,old wounds. God wants me to heal supernaturally and move on..and I am willing…

    I was called to a ministry decades ago…but that was interupted by all we are talking about here…and for whatever reason I did not have the wherewithall to overcome the effects of being rejected and booted…I know that call more “now than ever” to reuse a popular slogan of CJ…and ask God to reveal what I need to do to “move on”… I want closure…and the freedom that comes with it…also I want my family healed so that they can be healthy in all ways involving Christ too…

    I read somewhere that Colnel Sanders never made his first piece of fried chicken until he was over 50…imagine that!…there is still hope for me…for whatever reason many peolpe think I am 15 years younger than I really am…but many days I feel 15 years older…I want the years of the locust to go away…and the new to come in… I am sick and tired of going around this mountain…and will do whatever God has for me if he ordains it…

    those of you out there that have had similiar circumastances occur to you and your family probably can relate…especially if it has been a lot of years…and those of you newer to all this please take note…it requires some serious adjusting to overcome and move on…

    there I did it…I made the proclamation…and I must admit I feel better than I have in a long time…I think rembereing the day I wrote about with how the leaders acted and responded to the fellow that left Fairfax really opened up something…and why now I should have never been surprised as to how they “acted out” their frusrations…and allowed such horrific behaviour to others… imagining the softball to be the face of an individual and continually beating it with a bat is definetely over the edge …but thats exactly the way saying to one another…and I just sort of grinned …I would not do that now! … an act of violence that even a locker room should never allow…especially a christian one…but this is underlying the attitude caused many of us felt the ramifacations owe experienced…the henchmen mentality…the outright disrespect…the lording over, the shunning, the blind allegiance…all of that…the enigma is this…I respected and admired those guys so much…but at the same time my spirit showed me the total wrong in some matters… I was so afraid that my experience w/ Christ
    was directly hinged to them…and that I needed to accept things that were so contrary to my spirits leading…I did not have a good comprehension of a family or anything similar from my past…and this was my new extended family…
    sometimes the seriousness of all this is watered down because we all want to” take the higher ground”… but the reality cannot be ignored or denied…

    what seems now to be so obvious was for decades a mystery…it truly was a family quarrel…and something that must be dealt with similarly…and in this case all I can do is turn it over to our Fatnher 100%…and know that he does see all , and will take care of it…

    I am done…and now need to act on all this we have spoken about…I am sorry to rant on this all…but you folks did start all this to open some avenues of healing I think…thanks…t

36. theodore on March 26th, 2010 12:48 pm

    PS…if you read this Chuck…I hope you can feel what is sincere here…I wish you and your family all the best…and that you can get to where you are supposed to be…if you want to contact me ask the webmaster for my address…if not thats OK…t

37. Heather on March 26th, 2010 2:24 pm

    Ted- Interesting….my mom & I have had those same observations about the sisters and their upbringing. Excellent insights. Restoring what the locusts have eaten is our mantra too.

    Ted, and for any other’s interested- you may email us at:
    thompsonfamilyredemption@yahoo.com

    In the subject box specify ‘confidential’ if you wish for only my dad to read it. After much talk over the last few days, there is an overwhelming desire for my family to start a website of our own, for the purpose of healing and redemption to take place. After years of prayer on how to reach out to those who are survivors, (and by word of mouth we’ve has some success)  it just hit us like a lighting bolt to have a website of our own as a starting point. (I am sure that will ruffle the “mother hen’s” feathers.) It will take some time to have it ready, but it is in the works. A casual aknowledgement on this site doesn’t do justice in my dad’s opinion. He would rather a forum type setting where he can really address some things, and make himself accessible. His lack of posting is largely due to feeling overwhelmed, and a sense of burden for the still hurting. It has taken years for all of us in the Thompson family to feel normal, and whole again. God is really moving in our midst, and the tides are turning. Ted, my dad says all the time, “Is there anything still for an old fart like me, God?” He would love for you to email him when you are ready. (And for whoever else wishes to get in contact with him.)

    ~Heather

38. Steve240 on March 26th, 2010 2:34 pm

    John
    Thanks for the compliment on my post.
     
    One thing I remember hearing on some of the old TAG tapes (this goes back probably to the mid 70’s) was how Larry and C.J. one time found that they were hiding books from each other.  That is if one of them discovered a good Christian book he wouldn’t let the other person see it.  Eventually this came to a head when the found out they were doing this to each other (or one to the other) and separated and prayed then made some type of reconciliation.
    Theodore the brother in law of Mahaney that you are alluding
    Hearing that story always makes me wonder how truly paired up they were.   There was apparently always some type of competitiveness between the two individuals and finally came to a head when the group was too small for both of them.  C.J. won that battle.
    Theodore, the brother in law that you are alluding to is Grant Layman.  He is C.J wife’s brother.  There is a lot of nepotism that seems to occur in SGM like this.
     

39. theodore on March 26th, 2010 3:51 pm

    I sent an email to Chuck…I hope he enjoys it…thanks for connecting us…this might be the beginning of some good for us all…t

40. DB on March 26th, 2010 4:06 pm

    Theodore,

    We are so fortunate to be able to live in a time and place in which we get to live two lifetimes compared to the life expectancy only a century ago. I lost the young adult years in my life between having children when I was essentially too young to the legalism that prevented me from enjoying my life the way I believe we should.  I am pursuing my dreams in ways that I couldn’t have imagined during those years. I am doing so in spite of my age and in spite of going through a disabling illness. God is so good. And He heals and restores.

41. Stunned on March 26th, 2010 4:52 pm

    Hi, I’m new here- just found the site this afternoon.  So it may be a little early for me to comment, but as I am familiar with John over at Refuge (Hi John) and some of the other posters here- and really more so that I am an ex-sgmer and want to get in the group hug, I’m posting now. 

    And, no, I’m not kidding about the group hug.  Reading the posts back and forth from Heather and theodore made me feel like a little kid wanting to cry out, “Me, too!  Me, too!” and push her way into the mix.  So that’s pretty much what I am doing.  I agree, Heather, I wish there were a way for us all to get together in person, for us all to shake hands and say, “I understand a little of what you’ve experienced.”  I wasn’t from the home church, but from the Philadelphia church.  (And when I say the Philadelphia church, I mean the one that is a good hour drive from Philly.)  In some ways it was better than what I hear of the mother ship and in some ways worse but in most things- just exactly the same.  I guess when you feel like you’ve discovered Colonel Sander’s recipe, you don’t alter it. 

    Anyway, I’ll try to make it quick (DB, stop laughing, I do have the ability of brevity.  It just isn’t exercised much.)

    1)  Group hug..yaayyy!  Happy.  Good.  We should get together for this more often… thanks for doingthis publically and letting me in on it. 

    2)  theodore my friend, 55 ain’t nothin’.  Moses was 80 before his ministry got started.  Granma Moses (unrelated to Moses of course) was in her 70’s when she began painting.  (But that’s OK because she lived to 101.  Lots of years to paint.)  She was presented an award by Pres. Truman.  One of her works hangs in the White House to this day.  Norman Rockwell immortalized her in the painting Christmas Homecoming.  And the character of Granny in the Beverly Hillbillies was named Daisy Moses to pay homage to her.  55 ain’t nuthin’, Boy.  Let us see the gifts God has entrusted to you.  Let us see the gifts long since laid buried and nearly forgotten.  Bring them out. Bring them out into the light of day.  Bless the rest of the world with those gifts.  Glorify Him with them, til they sing from the rooftops, the glory of His name.  (And when you figure out how to do that, let me know so I can do the same.)

    3) theodore, above you basically said that if the day of the softball hitting were to happen all over again, you wouldn’t behave in the same manner as you did then.  What would you do now?  (I ask because, for some reason, I think it’s important for you to clarify.  Important for yourself to relive and re do if you can, if only on this blog.)

    4) Heather, sister, I’m so sorry for what you’ve suffered.  I really am.

    5) Heather, I am so so so so glad you posted here today.  This is clearly God’s timing for theodore and others of us.  Thank you for the patience and courage it took and is taking.

    6)  Heather, I hear what you’re saying about the way some of us express things.  And that it wouldn’t be the way you would.  I’m afraid to tell you, that though I’ve never posted here before, if I do, I have no doubt I will at one point or other, be referring to people’s privates and their lack thereof.  I know some people don’t think this is a healthy or a Godly thing. I have to disagree.  In my home growing up we never even said the d word.  (4 letters and sounds like something you would use to hold back water.)  Since then I have learned (unfortunately the hard and painful way) that sometimes certain words that I used to think of as bad, can actually be tools of healing.  For me and for others.  These can actually be used to build others up, though it may not make sense to everyone.  I’m not trying to be rude or even trying to be vulgar.  Yet, sometimes vulgar words are what I think are needed.  If I believe a certain word or visual will bring healing to one person or clarity to another, in spite of my dear mother’s disapproval, I’ve learned I’d rather say it for the sake of the hurting, than hold back for the sake of propriety.  I know you’re not taking offense here, but I thought I’d say it for those who may need to hear it and know they are not alone.  *Cough DB cough *  (OK, so not only DB, there are others who I think need to know I’m not going to leave them alone in the “sometimes much more vulgar than would be acceptable to SGM” corner.  I’m right there with ya.

    7) Hi Chuck.  I was impacted by what Heather wrote.  (Man, did you get lucky with a girl like her.)  She said, “There is a lot of shame & humiliation for a man to realize that after 20 something years he was being controlled like a little puppet for someone else’s agenda. It’s a hard pill to swallow, and a blast to manhood in general.”  That must be hard to deal with.  Or even know how to deal with.  I have a friend going through something very similar.  But instead of facing that it was a group of friends that controlled him, he’s realizing it was an ex-wife.  I’d love some advice on how to help him face it.  The marriage ended when she walked out 5 years ago, but I still see him in great denial about it to this day. Much easier to think you were merely rejected than to think you were played like a fine violin for two decades, all the while the signals were blaring that it was happening and for whatever reason you ignored it.  So if you have any insight on the whys or hows, I’m open to hearing them to help me to have insight for/with my friend.
    Chuch, I also read what your daughter said about creating your own site.  More power to ya.  I think that will serve the body of Christ in a good way and I encourage you to do it.  Now I am about to say something else that may be a little hard to hear.  I wish I knew how to make it go down more easily.  Like I wish there were some way I could dip it in delicious olive oil so it slips down gently and tastes better than it’s going to taste.  But Chuck, I’m hoping that maybe you’d pray about also posting here a bit.  Here and the few other places that you know SGMers and exSGMers/PDIers go to read.  I think your words might bring healing.  Mostly your words of repentance.  If (and I know this is a huge if)… if you were caught up in the typical SGM leadership crud, then I’m guessing there are people out there who have been impacted by you and your words, both in a good way and a not so good way.  I’m not trying to condemn you, Brother. Really, I’m not.  There is a lifetime of “I blew it”s in my book.  I’m just saying that if maybe some people in your past have been hurt by some things you would never have done today, it might be healthy for them (and maybe for you too)  if you were to use a forum to tell them that.  I know (well I assume, and you know what that makes me) that you would really want to make a personal connection to those you know you have harmed.  But since you could probably never know all who that is happened to, it would help them if you did it in a public forum where they may be reading.  (Especially since some of them would never go to your forum until they know you have changed.)  ——- OK, you now have my permission to think I am a total douche for being so forward with an absolute stranger.  I’d like to make it all spiritual and pretend that I prayed about saying this, and God got off His throne in heaven and told me to say this (thus making me seem oh so spiritual and you too ashamed for thinking I am a douche/insensitive/socially inept/fill in the blank).  But that didn’t happen.  I just think it’s something important to say because it seemed the right thing to say.  Hope I haven’t been too harsh.

    What number was I on?) Juli, glad to hear from you.  Hope you’re well.  I pray you don’t get discouraged that it’s already been two years.  Healing from things like this take a looong time.  Jesus loves you, Sister. 

    Thanks everyone for the healing found here.

    Stunned
     

42. theodore on March 26th, 2010 5:03 pm

    sorry I was not so clear…what I was alluding to is that if that situation was to occur to me today I would “speak the truth in love” to those guys…and not be intimadated by the fact that they were the pastors and I was a …well… friend playing softball with them who they could manipulate so easily & assume that I was immune to that kind of innapropriate behaviour and conversation…the gist of this all is that they were making extremely crude and violent remarks…something if done by any one else back then would have been severely chastised…hence the hypocrisy…

    also thank you veruy much for the encouragement…t 

43. Stunned on March 26th, 2010 5:25 pm

    Btw, the weird sunglasses smiley guy was the number eight with ) after it.  Didn’t mean to make a sunglasses guy.

    Yes, theodore, that is exactly what I thought you would have done if you could have redone it. Glad to hear it and thank you for sharing.  And I meant everything I said about all the new things God might call you to do.  It is very exciting to see what God does in the second half of our lives and how it’s often so much better than the first. 

    That goes for you, too, Chuck.  Really good things, I pray for you, too.

    I KNOW they are happening for DB. 

44. Heather on March 26th, 2010 8:02 pm

    *****Another group hug****** HA HA!

    I want to clarify that the actual words one wants to use is nothing I care about. My vocabulary has expanded quite a bit itself.

    I hear ya in that venting is good for the soul, so to speak. If that is the kind of site this is geared towards, then ok. I used to shred former PDI tapes with a hammer while screaming every 4 letter word known to man. I don’t “condemn” the theraputic value in this. My concern was that if this was a site hoping to aid towards a resolution with SGM, then the way certain comments were geared towards were, IMO, almost making the matter worse. There is way to bring reconciliation, and a way to prolong it. But by all means I would never censor one’s emotions. I don’t care. I am just so burdened for God to do something that I personally would not talk towards certain leaders, and former leaders, mentioned in the manor in which they were spoken to.  Make sense?

    Also, there is more behind the scenes going on than most are aware of. Dialogues still take place between lerdership. There are reasons that can’t exactly be disclosed for why my dad “can’t” yet comment, and on this specific forum. I know that seems quite vague, and almost excusitory, but please trust me when I say things are coming together. There is still wisdom needed in this process, and right not it would not be wise to just up and comment so rashly. (Which I understand it has been a long time coming, but the re-connect and realization of survivor sites are very new.) I wish I could elaborate more.

    If you can establish email contact with my dad so he can give you a few thoughts about the situation with your friend that would be great. (Unless you want to give us your address here.)
    thompsonfamilyredemption@yahoo.com

    And I would like to add that he wholeheartedly agreed when you complimented him in getting so  lucky with a daughter like me.

    Thank you for encouragement too. It’s been a looooooong journey, and I am still journying. Men can stop men, but men can’t stop God. So people better look out! God is moving!

    Oh, DB- I wish I could meet your daughter. I like fiesty female friends. It’s always entertaining going places with friends like that. I have one (another ex-PDIer) who is a force to be reckoned with. She is the spittin image of Judge Judy. Anyway, I wish everyone a wonderful weekend! I have friends who understand!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!! ****Ending with a group hug.****

45. theodore on March 26th, 2010 8:17 pm

    I think the best way to redeem this situation is for folks affected to find meaningful , wholseome lives pursuing Christ…a ministry to make it better…??to what end??

    I am not in favor of fanning the flames…but nothing aside from a public display expressing the sorrow for hurting so many people will ever amount to anything as far as some sort of justice…and this is highly unlikely…however the oppurtunity for folks to express some actual feelings(victims)…and then be connected with true help ie. counseling and support on a personal level…not chat room style , would be great…this forum can only go so far…not to diminish it’s great ability to allow folks to reach out…but nothing can replace good old personal relationships…t

46. DB on March 26th, 2010 8:47 pm

    One of my raw nerves is hearing about children being mistreated, I tend to let my emotions get ahead of my rational thought process and an appeal toward gentleness and reconciliation is something I have no trouble moving in that direction.
    Stunned, you made me blush.
    Heather, I feel blessed to share this discussion with you.
    And all my girls are pretty fiesty but the one to whom I refer is about your age (she’s 27,) She joined the Marines right after 9/11 and served with honor including a tour of duty in Anbar Provence, Iraq. She works in a male-dominated sector of the economy (If Musicman is who I think he is, he has done business with her, and Stunned knew her as a spunky little kidlet.) She is a third degree black belt and has won many gold medals at the national level and has been world ranked in karate. I think you might really enjoy her company, what happened to our family really hurt her and turned her off to organized religion but she loves the Lord which was a common thread in the letters she penned while stationed in Iraq. Anyway, I have no right laughing at the absurdity of a succicnt Stunned when I have written a chapter worth of mostly bragging about my daughter.
    Heather, I hope you stick around and I might write an email but I need to gin up the courage.

47. Stunned on March 26th, 2010 8:54 pm

    Heather, I totally hear you in regard to your father not speaking out right now.  And he/you owe me no explanation.  Thank you for making me feel heard.  I truly appreciate that respect.  No condemnation of your dad if he never says anything hear. 

    I LOVE the PDI tapes/hammer vision you gave me!  So good to know others understand.  So good.

    Btw, glad to hear both you and theodore having mentioned good counseling.  What a gift.

48. Stunned on March 26th, 2010 8:57 pm

    btw, all three of DB’s oldest girls are pretty awesome.  I’m sur all of her kids are great, but I only really knew the 3 oldest.  And I smiled every time I ever saw them.  (Give ‘em a hug for me DB, if they remember me.)

49. Pilgrim on March 27th, 2010 8:08 am

    I don’t know if this forum is the place to open up about the harm done to the children in PDI/SGM, but I hope one emerges. Heather, when I read your responses, I am amazed (God is glorified) in hearing your heart. I was a member of CLC from around 1980 – 1991 and primarily SGM churches until around the time the Tomczaks left PDI/SGM. I remember your sweet little face. You were adorable (still are from what I see in your pic). My blood boils when I think that anyone would choose to harm you. I can’t even begin to understand what you and your family have gone through. I have four grown children (one who remembers you) and two grandchildren, and I don’t want to even imagine how I would feel if anyone ever harmed them in the ways that you were harmed, especially if it happened on my watch. Still, I know it could have happened. Worse still, is the feeling that I failed in protecting my children from emotional harm inflicted in the name of Christ.
    Theodore, I think you can relate as well. Two of my kids have rejected God and probably feel much the same as your son who used the statement “Christian s***.” Heather, I can relate to your attacking the PDI tapes with a hammer. That’s how I feel about much of the PDI/SGM teaching, especially the child rearing teaching. Larry Tomczak (Doris too) were instrumental in bringing very damaging teaching into the heart of PDI. Why would I listen to people who called themselves “authorities” on child rearing when their own children were not even old enough to show fruit? How old was Justin when God the Rod came out? I know that God is in control and has probably revealed many of the errors in the PDI/SGM teachings to your parents, the Tomczaks, and many others. We would probably all do things differently if we could. I am not even speaking primarily of spanking in terms of child rearing. I am referring to modeling the graceless, legalistic, and judgmental ways that I learned primarily in PDI/SGM. I take responsibility for my actions. Was it all bad? No, but the bad stuff was (is) soooo damaging.
    Theodore, I can understand how you “didn’t fit the model” back then (and that’s a good thing). If you didn’t wear the correct yuppie clothes, carry a briefcase and daytimer, and use Binaca, you didn’t fit. For a while, many of the elders even drove the same model car. When people joined the church, either the transformation took place, or they were booted , chose to leave, or were relegated to the lower castes. I know the model has changed, but not the mentality (from what I read and hear). I am going off on a tangent. I am writing now primarily because I hurt for my two children who have chosen not to follow God. I was so happy to hear that Heather overcame so much and loves the Lord. Heather, maybe you could write about the ways you overcame the hatred and bitterness. I know that ultimately God is in control, but you (your folks too) have insight that may be helpful.

50. theodore on March 27th, 2010 10:20 am

    thanks very much for deciding to post…I am sure we must have known one another at least by site…at the time you were there (and me too) the church was getting pretty large…

    you hit the nail right on the head…the part about the cars really makes me look back…good grief…and then all the other gear you mentioned…LOL…your analogy is humorous, but also quite succinct…

    also explanation was perfect as to acceptance…I was sort of an anomaly since my wife and I had been there so long…maybe we got a little more slack for a few years…

    I think I will say a little more now about the kids…I was a bit reticent to share about my family in any detail…and will still keep it to a minimum…I hear your heart when you write…what happened to Heather was an atrocity to say the least…I am just afraid what else may have taken place too…I will say one of my biggest grievances I had for years , after my own initial dealings , was how my family was treated…and the huge hypocrisy that was displayed…how these leaders that espoused so much un proven teaching that they vicariously assumed( as you said we were all brand new parents back then, mostly coming from a family that did not function properly) …and then tell everyone else the “way it was to be done”…my wife did not need any help from them at all…she was an excellent Mom…many of the things put out there were so “cut and paste” it was ridiculous…in my mind especially the practices towards the youngest & discipline…

    that is not where my tragedy  end’s…I have pretty much dealt with all that happened…but my three sons hold a grudge against God for not only how they were dealt with & are not at all walking w/ him…but also how they saw it affect their Mom & Dad…and also give an interesting point …that first…my wife as I said was a great Mom…and always worked with kids many years before we were married…in Holland where she came from she was a social woprker too…so her experiences were pretty broad…she helped out at the newly formed school (the old Aspen Hill Elementary school ) The Grineys were awesome with the kids to my recollection…as was Rita …John Loftness recieved his position because of some sort of background…but he had little experience..they needed a principle…I remember painting desks for all the kids when we first began…and later building the desks that were special for the PACE program…something that IMHO was an easy way out to educate the children…something that after many years was proven to be ineffective to produce a well rounded education… I am no educator…just a parent then…all I can say is that the problems that were found in the church filtered down to the kids too…

    the point I really want o make here is this…when it was decided to tell me to leave…how could people that were so involved w/ my children just stand there and allow it?? to see them ripped away from their friends and little world…this to me was the greatest crime … and something that 25 years later still has resounding effects…something my wife and I pray for everyday… you take the initial extracation…then the total change of life that took place for us in relationships…add to that my kids and how it affected them… my question is how can anyone saying that they are “Men of God” allow anything even remotely close to all this? it baffles me beyond words…

    I met at a Christmas party about ten years ago a pair of kids from CLCC that were about 18-19 tears ald…they were recently married…I struck up a conversation w/ them about life in general…after a while I realized that I knew exactly who they were and their parents pretty well back in the day… these kids were 100% brainwashed…they had no knowledge of what had happened to so many families…an air surrounded them of the arrogance that was very “CJandLarryesque” …it was a sad moment to see them and their way…this couple did not have a clue…and did nothing but protect the establishment with hollow explanations … this is their legacy folks…this is what will be passed on to the future… the “Arian” like tendencys were appalling …the arrogance was stifling…and the condescending attitude to someone that no longer was there was also evident… I had to leave…

    I am sorry to have to be so graphic… but I believe that this is the true “untold story”… and if I can be so bold as to try and imagine Gods heart on this…this is probably the biggest “fruit” of all that has happened since 1974…JMHO…

    I think we can all pray for the families put out here…and assume that there are a lot of needs generated from all this…thank you to all for your candid remarks…and for taking advantage of this medium of communication…I for one have been blessed by it all…and am aided in my sojourn to be whole…t

51. DB on March 27th, 2010 12:25 pm

    Stunned, I think they remember you, thank you for the sweet words and memories of my girls. The younger ones are just as dynamic a the older ones. It’s amazing that they are so different from one another and, so far, they have all taken different paths into their adult lives.
    My firstborn and I graduated together this past December, she has her degree in History and Education and is subbing and looking for a teaching position. She is married to one of the most kindhearted men I know (they are very much alike on the inside,) and they are both in a band (have been on MTV.) Secondborn is at the end of her second year of a pediatric residency. She’s also married to a nice guy that is also a badass (in a good way.) I told you about Jo. Since you don’t know the younger five, I won’t bore you with the details but they are a blessing (in the normal kid sort of way because human beings are messy.)
    Heather spoke of taking a hammer to PDI tapes and, boy can I relate. Our old church is CF in the Philly ‘Burbs. They built their new church right off rt. 322 that happens to be on the way to the airport. This means we pass by the building on a regular basis and of course, I’m immature enough to make obscene gestures (not the predictible elevated middle digit, however) and calling it my pet name (Covenant full of $h*!) and my children, bless them came up with the pg rated alternative non-vulgar Fullofit which I readily adopted and by which our old church is referred to this day.
    Sorry to go on and I hopee I haven’t put anyone off but I use humor to come to terms with issues that aren’t under my power to resolve. In one of my fantasies, people would make an attempt to apologize for the hurt they caused my family and consider us worthy of their time and effort to reconile and open up the lines of communication but I realized ages ago that won’t likely happen, so I use humor.

52. theodore on March 27th, 2010 12:26 pm

    I would also like to say thank you in particular to the starter and manager of this page…I am sure it was & is funded out of pocket…also the way it is” kept watch” by protecting the posters against spammers and those that would try and silence us…I believe that there is a groundswell of folks and their stories still to come…also , and much more importantly ,and oppurtunity for people like,myself,Heather,DB,stunned,pilgrim and all the others here now to ventilate in a healthy manner, and begin to either help others,  begin or complete a healing process… it is not too late for us to correct things in our lives and be whole again…and this 100% includes anyone that may have been a part of the establishment that did some questionable things back when…my heart goes out to you in a special way…as Heather posted a bit on this… if we truly believe the scripture and how it applies to our lives, ie. “the years of the locust” then we must indeed be compelled to provoke a change here…aren’t we the means that the Holy Spirit uses?? isn’t God’s heart so many times expressed to be concerned for the 1 lamb that was lost over the 99 that were OK ?? I personally have experienced an encounter w/ God over the last two weeks about all that happened so long ago… and quite frankly it is time to do something about it…and free up the things in my life that God wants for me to do… and no longer be bound by the attempts of men to hinder the gift in me…I have a distinct feeling in my spirit that there are others out there that God is trying to heal and re -focus their lives for him…and also regain a place of preminence in their(mine) lives…

    I recieve everyday a email from Greg Laurie , Pastor of a very special church related to Calvary Chapels in California …today was a not about not going the way of Saul, Samson and others that did not finish the race well… I realized just how close I came to being a part of that…maybe not so dramatically, but for sure not completing tasks and callings that God had for me… it has been like a volcano in my life recently, rumbling the earth, and spitting out small amounts of debris as a pre coursor to a violent eruption… God is so much infinetely larger than any problem, doctrine or occurence that we may have experienced in our past…and he is commited to see us function in a supernatural way, that he has designed especially for us… its time folks…let’s take on this challenge in a way that will bring us all into a new and healthy walk…

    the whole calvanism and predestination teachings are so complex, and easily divetred top special intersts  or purposes… I am by no means a Bible scholar…but I do know that the scripture says nothing shall seperate us from God ’s love and  purpose…especially if we are willing…the specter of CLCC, SGM and this other one(I am not sure what it really is PD something or other, I am dating myself a bit here) shall be able to quench what God has started in our lives … no matter what!

    God Bless you all…t

53. Ellie on March 27th, 2010 12:43 pm

    Thanks all of you for sharing. My kids and I are still going through alot of pain caused by daily reminders of our former pdi/sgm life. The arrogance and superiority shown to our family by some is amazing. I have so much I could say, but I’m still not there yet. I just want my kids to know that the “sgm saviour” is not the true Jesus. They still think of “grace” as a dirty word. It makes me sad.

54. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 12:46 pm

    Stunned… Glad to hear you found the site.   They hiding me over there at the refuge?

    >snicker<

    I’m a busy somebody over here in spiritual tyranny land.   Poke about particularly the START HERE button.  That will help with some things.

    Have fun…

55. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:14 pm

    Heather,

    A little time has passed on your initial comments.  I did want to address those comments because they do capture some concepts that people struggle with.  So if nothing else I will use them as a stepping off point… as anecdotal for others with the same questions.  I have five separate remarks to follow—self contained efforts to address points in your thoughts.

    A fair amount has been said not least of which is the emergence of your heart desire, and the present Group Hug.    I want to do justice to your personal revelation and to acknowledge what your point is here now.

    You are a gem.  Absolutely, truly a gem!!  You told your story, shared deep personal issues because of your sense of compassion.  You read my commentary and think maybe you hear pain.  You point to the horror of your experience and want people to see that if God can do such great things in your heart, then surely, he can heal whatever ails people.  Wow… that is inspiring.  Thank you for sharing yourself with me and with anyone else who needs encouragement that the Grace of God is powerful to transform their life.

    And I need to point out: it stirred deep issues in people’s hearts.  I think it outstanding that your transparency lanced some old wounds that have obviously festered.   Ted’s story is a prime example.

    I only have one thing against you… my blog = the Enquirer?

    >snicker<

56. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:20 pm

    So now I have to figure out how to make a transition.

    How does John keep from being a big meaner and address the substance of some original comments?

    How to walk this balance beam?  Clear  or obsequious?  Adorably blunt or sweetly benign?

    Sigh…

    Since I happen to think adorably blunt is my thing, I’ll go with that.  I understand that my adorably blunt shtick is a preference.  Kinda like “Pleasantly Plump.”

    If you don’t like plump, it just ain’t that pleasant.

    That was funny!

    I slay me most days.

    Ehem….

    Okay, we start here.

    I know many people physically leave SGM however, philosophically, I submit many still view the world through that mindset.   (So many subsequent comments illustrate my point.)   That mindset impacts how they hear, how they view the unfolding events within SGM.  This mindset plus a specific doctrinal understanding of “We don’t wrestle with flesh and blood, but evil forces….” dramatically shades understanding the content here on Spiritual Tyranny.

    Let us dig into this because it is a central effect of participation with SGM.

    SGM is very good at instilling a “world according to them” in those who sit under their tutelage–so good that it lingers for years and years, as testified to by comments on this thread.    This is evidence to the level of detail they organize their thought and ultimately a demonstration to the power of Philosophy.  I have addressed Philosophy directly in, Not so Vain, Consciousness, Moral Clarity, and Moral Seduction.  Man seeks water, food, salt, sex and integrated ideas (AKA Philosophy) with the same relentless intensity.

    SGM offers a turnkey philosophical solution on so many life issues that it is easy to accept their assumptions without ever reviewing the foundation.  They are very good at selling the notion that all things SGM = all things “biblical.”  And they go way out of their way to bludgeon anyone who dares question their claim–hence, the current litany of complaints pouring fourth through various outlets.

    In the early years, after my breezy exit from the CLC hallowed halls, I watched, amazed at how so many people would leave the church but never really leave the methodology.  Their testimonies of spiritual tyranny rivaled yours but yet they felt compelled to emulate SGM method and manner.  They kept wanting to recreate (then) PDI church culture without the abuse.  If they had the great misfortune feeling called to ministry, they would inevitably try to out-CLC CLC.  Of course, they became the very tyrants they sought to escape. And herein is the central problem:  you can’t get the culture without the cultural assumptions.

    (Ted, if it matters, I don’t think it any accident that God has waited to reenergize your ministry vision: until you can envision something entirely else, offer cohesive worldview that does not center around their assumptions…Tyranny is the logical conclusion of those assumptions.  (See Gosple According to John Immel 3:1-3) )

    While many people are light years from tyranny and the comments are motivated by compassion, the outcomes and methods advocate are very much shaped by an SGM prism.

    This phenomenon exists because of an inexplicit set of assumptions.  I want to expose those assumptions because they keep people in bondage.  I am going to use Heather’s comments as anecdote for my point because they capture the sentiment.  (This isn’t personal it’s just… business.)

    >snicker<

    Here is the first sentence in your first remark above.  “I am a little confused. I am legitimately asking for an answer, and I don’t have a sarcastic or malicious tone in my typing in the least.  With that being prefaced…”  Notice: you are validating your commentary by virtue of tone.  This is the overall theme of the initial comments: Tone as qualifier, tone as disqualifier. And I see it bleed through in other posts.

    This is the implicit assumption:

    Correct tone = qualification
    Incorrect Tone = disqualification

    You have voiced a general “John, you SOUND vindictive” objection.  Whether I am or not has not been established.  The unstated value being: vindictive is an erroneous motive, a disqualifying reason.  This is a moral statement.  And herein is the problem with TONE being a moral measure.  Tone is subjective, or maybe better said, the meaning of tone is subjective.

    Once a moral equation becomes subjective, the inevitable casualty is content.  Because the tone wasn’t right, the content is… suspect?  Dismissed?  Erroneous?  Legalistic?

    This is SGM 101.  This is their method and manner at the core.  One technique they use to defend against criticism is by seizing the moral high ground in how people talk.  This gives them enormous argumentative power.

    On one hand they appoint themselves chaperone to people’s expression, and on the other they justify their every word by insisting they have mastered self-expression that is uniquely spiritual and therefore authoritative.

    If one accepts the premise, this rationalization is unassailable: they are LOGICALLY right because they talk right; everyone else is MORALLY wrong because their sinful attitude is revealed by their apparent communication method failure.

    The criticism of my tone is not as sweeping as the SGM ham-fisted thuggery, but it amounts to the same thing.  The content of the commentary is suspect because it is a proscribed standard.  Or maybe better said it is implied that I am not understandable (potentially not scriptural) and overtly ineffective because you think there is something wrong with my method of expression.

    I submit that this is initially why you had to work to get my point.  The filter of Tone = Qualification shaded your ability.  You are obviously a smart woman.  By your testimony you are obviously able to thrive in the face of hardship.  There is no question about capability.

    So, the struggle had to come with the instilled mental model.

    See, here is the thing: I don’t accept the premise that tone = qualification.  I certainly don’t concede that someone else is the chaperone of my expression.  There is no such thing as a blanket “biblical” method of expression.  But above all, I categorically reject the notion that people are absolved of their responsibility to hear the truth because they don’t care for how the truth is said.

    But let’s drill this down another level. It is important to see what is at the root because it goes to my overarching point about apostolic fraud.  The only reason that we are addressing tone is because somehow tone qualifies or disqualifies.

    The real issue here is… QUALIFICATION.  The underlying assumption here is I’m not qualified to talk in the manner that I talk.  And this is absolutely an SGM preoccupation.  It is a Larry preoccupation.  And a Che Ahn preoccupation.  And a vast percentage of the Apostolic frauds preoccupation—that QUALIFICATION is a prerequisite to proclaiming truth.

    Here is the dirty little secret they don’t want anyone to realize.  There is no qualification for proclaiming truth.  This is how the Apostle Class has entrenched their power.  They have created doctrines so they can control who can speak by fabricating standards that everyone must live to.  I must applaud this masterful piece of demagoguery.  They appoint themselves definer and keeper of the talking yardstick.  To talk to them, you must first talk like them.  Fail to talk like them and forever be disqualified from speaking TO them.

    What a beautiful tautology.

    People often trot out some variation of:  “Well John, you must speak the truth in ‘love’.”  Let me address this with the following.

    Man is obligated to speak truth: “Thou shalt NOT bear False Witness.”  (I address the profound epistemological command this is in Moral Clarity.)

    Indeed, the progression of man’s descent into depravity is precisely because he exchanges truth for a lie.  Man’s very psychic existence is inextricably entwined with his mandate to use his senses to grasp truth and act in accordance with that truth.

    By creating a qualification—in this instance “love”—as a predicate to speak, the Apostolic Class has placed a muzzle on the foundation of Man’s existence.  Such muzzling aids and abets exchanging truth for a lie.

    Here is what happens.  People hear words and decided if the method is THEIR definition of love.  If they don’t like the way it was said, then the speaker was not loving.  Ergo, it must not be truth.  Alakazam!  Poof!  The content was irrelevant.

    And this is precisely a leading issue within the SGM phenomena: far too many people absolving themselves of responsibility because they don’t happen to like the means of communication.

    I reject the premise from the foundation.  Man is obligated to hear and know the truth no matter his sensibilities.  And once he knows it… he is mandated to act on what he knows.

    I address this in depth on Moral Seduction.  That has a podcast attached to it, so you can read or listen.  It is an hour of audio, but well worth the investment.  I illustrate HOW people are morally seduced into believing they can’t voice objections because tyrants always seek to dictate the means and methods of expression.  It is for this reason that the Founding Fathers wrote the First Amendment.

    The Enquirer?
    Ehem…

57. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:29 pm

    Okay… more adorable bluntness.

    1) What exactly are you holding Larry Tomczak and Che Ahn responsible for?  How exactly are they at fault for PDI/SGM today, and what would you have them do about it tonight?

    Heather, you are absolutely beautiful.  I love you.  Do you realize you have swerved into a profound truth?  If you were here, I would kiss you.  Very chaste but none the less.

    You have made my point as I could never have by my own words.

    I thought this was what the “apostles” are supposed to know what to do tonight!  With “apostolic” authority comes some magical dispensation to ward off the bad things of the world, to resist the evil biting the flock in the butt.

    Alakazam!  Poof!  Covering!

    So why is it that Larry doesn’t have a plan for action tonight, or tomorrow or… anytime in the last 10 years?  How does he not know what to say or do?

    By their own doctrine, this is their JOB.  By doctrine they are the ones who are supposed to know how to guard the flock and cover their lives and defend them from the gremlins of bad.

    Why are you asking me?  I’m not part of Apostolic Central Planning for the People’s Republic of Heaven.  Why is it my problem to lay out a plan of action?

    This is sooo wonderfully revealing I am romping in my chair with euphoria.

    Sorry…  I can’t help myself.  Hey everybody.  Listen up.  Pay attention!      Apostolic Central Planning does NOT have a program. They don’t know what to do to resist the tyranny!  They don’t know how to respond to manifestations of the very evil they say they are uniquely qualified to defend against.

    People are asking moi how to defend the flock and resist tyranny!!!!

    And since you have asked… might I recommend the Start Here button, right side of the browser on SpiritualTyranny.com.

    The Enquirer ???!!!!

58. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:32 pm

    “… we wrestle not with Flesh and blood but with principalities and power and spiritual wickedness in Heavenly places…”

    Christians have long ascribed human action to demonic motivations.  The Devil was in man, so man had to die.  The Church committed atrocity in an effort to purge the devil from its midst.  In the 13th century The Enlightenment introduced reason back into man’s understanding, and he began to realize that much action laid at the Devil’s feet was mere superstition.  He began to grasp the cause and effect of physical action, delved into the mechanics of nature and revealed the mysteries of God’s creation.

    Man, in his endless hostility towards truth, believed he’d finally mastered his environment and began to condescend to the spiritual facet of his existence.  God is dead, the pontificators said. If man cannot feel, taste, touch, see, or hear … it does not exist.  The belief in the unseen, the assertion of a world that cannot be measured is a delusion of primitive understanding.  But no matter the pontificators proclamations, they could not destroy man’s religious sense, his overwhelming, recidivistic determination to hunt down a spiritual self.

    Christianity was an academic pursuit dominating Seminaries and Universities: a thing of the mind, the stuff of intellectual wrangling, reduced to councils and creeds and academic statements of faith.  A hundred years ago, American Christianity rediscovered a spiritual realm that transcended man’s sensory experience that impacted and shaped the world and how man operated on earth.  People scoured the scriptures to discover that yes, indeed, a realm beyond sense exists, and the source of blessing and malaise was revealed.  From here we learned to pray, to intercede, of Gifts, of spiritual warfare, the authority of the believer, and faith.

    The men who stood in the pulpits reviled the seminaries for their unspiritual “intellectual” doctrines built on pride and fueled by arrogance.  They thumbed their nose at the schools of cemetery training.  They abandon the mainline churches to start their own meeting justifying their action because no man had the right to say who was called to minister the Gospel of God.

    “That is what you get for thinking,” the bible school dropouts proclaim as they pound their bibles.  “There were two trees in the garden, and it was the tree of knowledge that caused the problem.”  The people listened and took up the battle cry: the mind is evil, thinking is unspiritual, coherent doctrine is irrelevant, intellectual integrity merely an overblown personal arrogance, legalism on parade.

    The people believed what they were taught.  Everyone can preach and the mind is irrelevant; man’s understanding is fueled by revelation.  They open the book, let their fingers land on a passage and say: “This means to me, this means to me.”  Who can critique?  Judge not lest you be judged.  And besides, error is merely the signs of the times: people going after doctrines of devils.

    The great Theologian Flip Wilson told us the sum of all human problems: The Devil made me do it.  The Church Lady held service every Saturday Night Live, hair in a bun, brow raised, and smirking: “Was it SaaaaTAN?  Hum!?”

    Chaos came like a flood.

    The price of letting a bunch of West Texas good old boys reduce the use of our minds to a direct liability is incalculable.  Immanuel Kant in the 1800s set out to separate man from his mind, and his mind from reality, and humanity is reaping the disaster of that effort in bodies stacked like cordwood.

    He would be proud to realize that even the good ol’ boys from the sticks got the message.  As a result, Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity has driven intellectual power from its midst with impunity.  They drove away the thinkers because they didn’t see thinking listed in Corinthians.  They abhor the headwork necessary to see the dynamic tension implicit to Truth.  They say: “We don’t want your thinking,” and the world hears the message loud and clear.  We are poster children for Sanctimony, intellectual laughing stocks, a social irrelevancy, hardly able to impact a local school meeting let alone the tides of American thought.

    We bow our heads and pray.  We rebuke demons.  We bind and loose.  But minds do not change, actions persist, and lives are consumed to ash.

    We are reduced to an impotent: “I’ll pray for you,” when someone offers an argument, any argument, because we are so ill prepared.  The world knows this is code for: “#&$$ YOU!” for not believing what I tell you.  They flip us off and turn to someone, anyone, who can offer a coherent ideological world view.  The New Agers, the Socialists, the Communists, the Fascists, the European Religious Collectivists and the Mystic Despots are lining around the block to offer their IDEAS, and daily their ranks swell.  The cause and effect of the disaster embedded in those ideas is washing across the world … AGAIN!

    Charis-costal Christians stand agape as the tide rolls at them.  Voices rise to offer ideas that compete with the error and the response is to say:

    “The battle is spiritual!”

    “To have a conflict is sin!”

    “Just love them!”

    “Kumbaya, Kumbaya!”

    The loose rationalization is that the fight can never take on flesh, which means that man must stay out of the mind-changing business, which really means only God changes the minds of men.  Unseen forces somehow sweep in and alter men’s thinking.

    We have been so talked out of thinking that as we quote bible passages to quell the intellectual fight very sure we have said something spiritual, and fail to see a glaring, obvious, truth: those very passages were written by a man aiming an IDEA at the head of his intellectual adversaries.

59. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:34 pm

    I have one last comment to offer on the adorably blunt side before I finish with a frothing-at-the-mouth rant.

    I understand why you have concerns about my method.  I am sympathetic to the source.  I have no real interest in defending the method to the madness. I am confident that will become clear over time.

    Maybe I’m a flake: if I am, my lack of integrity will find me out.  Maybe I’m delusional with my own sense of self-importance: if I am, then my fabricated world will be crushed under the weight of reality. And if that happens, I can always dismiss it all with the wave of the “We are all just sinners,” moral relativistic magic wand.  So, it is all good no matter what.

    >snicker<

    But I do want to offer this observation.  It has been asserted that my methodology is potentially unscriptural and at best ineffective.  Maybe, if I changed my approach I could do MORE for the kingdom, I could have a greater impact.  But I want you to notice.  You are advocating a ‘correct’ method of expression and conceding the fight.  You have gone way out of your way to absolve Larry and Che, and pretty much anyone else, for SGM failures.  Nothing can really be done, because the fight is unwinnable.  Or maybe better said, the fight is some esoteric spiritual battle that man can’t impact much, because men cannot breach the stronghold.

    Do you not see the profound inconsistency?

    You advocate a correct attitude, but concede failure, then tell me that my method/attitude is ineffective but I’m the one saying FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!

60. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:37 pm

    Take your time guys… I have said a LOT. The last rant will be its own post.  I should be done with the audio by Sunday.

    Peace out.

61. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 1:38 pm

    Ellie… hey girl!  Glad you made it over! 

62. John Immel on March 27th, 2010 2:05 pm

    And Pilgrim… welcome.  And so very true.  How is it that the “fruit” of what happens to the kids does not seem to matter?  This very post was started from that very question: the aftermath of what happened to Noel and Grizzly’s daughter.    Women and Children First.

    I don’t begin to fathom this.

63. theodore on March 27th, 2010 2:23 pm

    nice soliloquy John…I was on the edge of my seat for a while…I appreciate the intellect and content expressed by you and your experience a lot!

    I seems that you have a very good grasp on the mechanics of all this…and the remark you made of my experience is accurate indeed…I needed a new world view to be of any use at all…the anaolgy you made of how CLC becomes a measuring weight for folks, even after expulsion, is outstanding…well put…it is the most accurate explanation of the malady I have ever heard…and does explain an awful lot to me about the great discrepancy I experienced. ie . why I was so attached still to so many things from the past…and how after quite a few years finally came to a new conclusion based on totally new experiences…probably why the involvement 10 years ago when I was in San Diego going back to school at the Calvary Chapel in Carlsbad…simply put, a way of expressing the Gospel that was capable of refuting the SGM mindset…something I desperately needed…and is what truly began my final road to healing…

    there is no doubt that the methods you described that are employed by SGM etc. would be comparable to any of the great idealogies from history that eneded in destruction…write new rules wherever neccesary…and underscore them with a license from God as a means of enforcement…actually quite an old scheme , but with a level of deception specially concocted for the times we were living in, churchwise, then and now…

    I found your comment about “once you disagree” you are marked fascinating…at a meeting in Bill Patton Sr’s basement in 1974 I told Larry and CJ both that I thought them going to be on staff at Christ Church rather than following through with core group actually turning into its own church was “deceptive”…they had taken me aside that night after we had our small worship service and teaching and told me of their plans…so I would not be surprised etc when I found out…primarily as a way to gradually not offend any of the local church Pastors that were concerned that TAG was going to be a divisive instrument with all the kids & young adults that were attending from their perspective churches(over 700)…especially if it became a church etc.

    Whether or not I was correct is moot at this point…we all ( about 35 of us)wanted to form a new church out of our “Gathering” and abandon any of the other denominational , or other types of churches we might have been also attending…something that was more relevant to what we believed at that time…also a place where we could be free from the doctrinal encumbrances that they had(speaking of the other churches)…it was apparetnt that spomething very special had evolved fronm TAG etc…and that we were ready to move to the next phase…

    I along w/ Che and a few others attended Halpine Baptist…and a major rub between Richard Kline and CJ had developed…originally where CJ had met and grew in Christ, before he me Larry Tomczak…and I think going to Christ Church was intended to be
    sort of a “neutral” ground for the planned expansion…going to Christ church ,(which is where Robin Boisvert was a associate pastor) eventually ended…quite soon actually…and we then did what myself and others were opting for originally… but this was the beginning of my end…when I would eventually be marginalized because I disagreed with what they were doing..

     I was pretty young then…but definetely had a sense that I was to do something in a ministry fashion…and now looking back with some gray hair under my belt, realize that I would never , ever have been allowed to blossom there… I would not go under their authority the way they needed to have me to be able to be a contributor there… so began my search for something else…not overtly, but in my heart…and the remark I made that I thought you were so spot on, about using that foundation as a balance beam for accepting a church began…

    I doubt that in 25 years I have ever been able to conclude this in the same way…and that is truly is a turning point for me to understand…not to be arrogant…but I did have some real & sincere attributes to add to that equation…but I was disqualified before I even got a chance to prove myself…couple that with my youthfulness, and desire to be acceppted , and moreso the new responsibilities I was facing as a husband and father…it set the stage for me…

    I guess I can get up from the couch now Doc…LOL…the word implanted here took a root and sprouted pretty quickly…thank you very much ! nmopw I have to decipher what this maens as to what I am doing now…and where I am supposed to go…it really is that big of a deal for me and my wife…it is difficult here to convey the immensity of all this, and how much has transpired because of lack of knowledge and hurt…but I feel clean now in a way that is new to me…

    all the best…ted…keep up the good work…OK…

64. John on March 27th, 2010 2:58 pm

    Ted,

    Your experience is what has happened to countless other men called and appointed to ministry.

    They get talked out of their calling because of some seriously hypocritical doctrinal claims by our current Apostle Class.

    Ted Said:
    

    there is no doubt that the methods you described that are employed by SGM etc. would be comparable to any of the great idealogies from history that eneded in destruction…write new rules wherever neccesary…and underscore them with a license from God as a means of enforcement…actually quite an old scheme , but with a level of deception specially concocted for the times we were living in, churchwise, then and now…

    SOOOO true! 

    Indeed it is an old methodology.
    My next post: Frauds and Papist and European Religion deals with this EXACT issue

    ***

    As an administrative aside. Your comments are getting caught in my spam filter. Not your fault.

    Mine. Gotta figure out how to make it work.

65. theodore on March 27th, 2010 4:48 pm

    no problem…I thought something was awry…I read the remark made as to “what was expected of Larry Tomzcak and Che Ahn”… in respect to any responsibility to correct or make right their involvments…

    I feel like I should say soimething about that all…about 4  years ago I contacted Larry personally…I expressed a certain amount of friendly amenities…I even sent a pretty nice pice of art from my gallery as an offering of friendship( I am an artist)…he recieved it very graciously of course…and said hello etc like any old friend would…he had been friends w/ me since 1974 and my wife since ‘73…so its always nice to hear from an old friend/aquaintance …

    when I asked him about the past and how it affected so many in a bad way , the conversation turned a bit stoic…he relented that it was a bad time for many…including himself and Doris…but that was it…no other remorse as to what he did in his time of being the”Boss” …and the conversation ended as quickly as it started…

    what was so funny to me was that I then ended up on a mailing list from him… his son started sending me listings for his house he was selling…not bad Larry…it would seem that “subjacating the meek”, has its share of rewards…LOL…I could not afford the electric bill…

    so in my mind he was oblivious to any personal responsibility…at least to initiate an apology etc…

    next…. 

    I tried contacting Che…he and I had a long history of good times back to 1972 , until he got the scent of a mega ministry in his nostrils…he had a desire and total personal vision for greatness from way back…and he would do anything reasonable to ahieve it…again like my anology of an MBA pursuing a high level position in a corporation…something that Larry really liked in him…and started a beautiful relationship …

    he never even bothered to email me back after several attempts…so that was a blank…I see him everyonce in a while on TV…and have looked at his site etc…nothing has changed at all…if thats happiness you can have it…

    so to answer your question as to what should be expected of them …absoloutely nothing…or better put, I would not want them to do anything at all…they both have , IMHO , a ravenous taste for power, and everything that comes with it…no different than from whence they came…what they experienced is something similar to a take over or power move in a big corporation…nothing else…anyone with a basic comprehension of life would realize after parting ways with the Mother Ship would have to accept some sort of responsibility, that is if their parting was on the base of righteousness…that is unless they have completely burned their conscience on these matters… which is a matter strictly between themselves and God…that is not my call at all…actually it scares the heck out of me…my main hope would be the folks fallen from leadership that do understand their heart, and may have spent a long time doing something they now want nothing to do with…these peole are the ones that I have compassion for…and am reaching out to, along with others like myself…I spent 25 years wandering on these matters…to what avail…maybe we have a lot more in common than we think...and maybe we could help one another figure all this confusion out together…that somehow sounds to me like something the Holy Spirit would be a part of…rather than some salvage of ships at the bottom of the sea…

    I of course believe in redemption and ressurection…but I think we have to recognize our frailities as humans…and our limitations as Saints too…if I can sit and talk with someone and have fellowship…that is a meeting of minds…we can grow and move on…share conncepts and understand Gods love in a realistic way…thats the beginning of healing and progress…not some religious disertation that only reinforces borders and flags…the ladder is something I am not intersted in at all…but the former is something I would considser a “pearl of great price” worth anything that it would require”.

    I not only am bearing a white flag…but I am wearing a white suit driving a white p/u truck…LOL…and even my dog is white…no worries for rejection here at all…only a desire to find God in all this…and the redemption,vision and annointing that comes with that kind of reckoning…

    all the best…ted

    PS… I cant do spell check etc…the process here is a bit diff for me…so I apologize for the mistakes etc…I try and proof it all…but inevitably I miss some stuff…BTW I meant 1976 on that date in my previous post about the beginnings of Gathjering of Believers etc…not 1974…t

66. theodore on March 27th, 2010 5:26 pm

    is it better to post using Mozilla/Firefox ??t

67. theodore on March 27th, 2010 6:08 pm

    BTW…thanks for the encouragement John…who says the internet is all bad…LOL…t

68. Heather on March 27th, 2010 6:31 pm

    Pilgrim, Ted, this is my heart……for the children (now adults) of the family’s who were booted. Pop some popcorn, folks. This post is longer than Ted’s & Stunned combined X’s 5!
    

    First of all, thanks again for all of the support you all have shown me. In a sense this actually feels like family…..what years & years within PDI never felt like. Amazing. Thank you. Ted, I especially wish I could give you a big ole daddy hug. :-)

    Obviously I want to see complete restoration within the entire ministry, but what tugs at my heart the most is the onslaught of attack that happened to the children of those who were exiled. They were robbed of so much. When my family left in late 1994/early 1995, I had been home schooled or attended CLC’s school. I knew nothing outside of the church. My social skills had been conformed to the likings and the teaching of the church. I knew who the Beatles were, I knew that Amy Grant was risqué if you were caught listening to her, and turtle necks were supposed to be cool because all the pastors kids would wear them. ‘Shut up’ & rolling your eyes were a sure fire way to get you spanked and grounded, so those (I thought) would be my life lines when we left the church. Those suckers must be powerful weapons!

    I started my first year of school outside of the “compound” in a public high school; 9th grade. I showed up in stirrup stretch pants and an oversized T-shirt….no makeup. I can vividly remember a fellow male classmate ask me if I thought I was cool. I literally thought he was asking. I had no clue what sarcasm was because sarcasm was sin. I legitimately answered swiftly (because I wanted to “please” with immediate obedience) and I answered “yes.” He laughed so hard at me. I was clueless as to why he was laughing. For the rest of the day I felt so out of place. I was so overwhelmed. I was so scared. The lunchroom was unbearable. Where was my little lunchbox and scripture verse that my mom always gave me? Where was the lunch monitor who prayed before we ate, and assigned us to our seats? Where were the teachers who walked around and smiled with approval & took notes of you for taking the initiative to wipe down the tables, empty the trash, pray for the afternoon part of the day, and offer other’s help in order to win that ‘Golden Mop’ award at the end of the year? Should I tell a teacher that a guy made fun of me? He must be going to hell anyway. He must not be one who is predestined. So I went to the bathroom to hide, only to find the “bad girls” smoking and using words I had never heard. They were laughing and calling each other “B*t*h. One of them looked at me to ask what I thought I was doing hanging out in there?! I said, “waiting for my next class, b*t*h. (I thought I was just following the “cool girl’s” protocol. One girl said, “you better run.” So I did. I was confused. What just happened? These were still the days before Google, otherwise I may have saved myself some earlier heartache and knew what things meant. Since leaving, my dad had to go back to a “real” job. He was working 10-12 hour days, completely starting over to get himself back into a salary position to support the lifestyle we had been accustomed to. My mom began to work as well.

    Each day I would come home from school, and no one was there. No “x’s” on my chore sheet for missing something. No assignments for scripture memorization. No notes of penalty for leaving a sock on my floor. All of a sudden my life had changed overnight. No parent to order out chore lists, or to have a “check in” on my heart attitude for the day. So I did the unthinkable……I watched episodes of Saved By the Bell. *Gasp* I thought I would learn my coolness from them. I went upstairs and cut off all of my knee length jean shorts. I cut the sleeves to all of my shirts. I made my own “Express” labels to put in my clothes since learning that was the popular brand back then.
    It backfired. I was relentlessly teased. After a few months of this, I begged my parents to send me to a private school. They did. My 2nd day there I was suspended for telling a joke about sex. It felt like Christianity was too hard to do. Whenever I was around church I always screwed up somehow, so maybe if I just stayed away I would at least escape the wrath of God?

    I told my parents to save their money and that I would just go back to public high school for my 10th grade year. My first day back and that guy who had asked me if I was cool shouted for everyone to hear, “Hey! That cool girl is back…..look out everybody.!” I snapped! I snapped big time! All the years of anger suppression raced forth, and from that day on I wasn’t going to take crap from anyone!!! NO ONE! No adult, no Christian, no one!

    I began having numerous encounters with people at school. If someone so as looked at me the wrong way, I would boldly shove them up against the wall and let them know if that happened again they would be sorry. I developed a very strong “F*c* you attitude. “F” the world!!! I started doing drugs which ultimately lead me on a fast track of coc & meth addictions. I was kicked out of that high school for fighting, and sent to an “alternative” school with all of the other problem kids in the region. Exiled once again. I moved out for a while at 17. I thought I was pregnant a few times. I decided school was stupid so I dropped out of school too. My parents and I did nothing but fight. I truly hated them. The tension was so thick we all avoided one another. I can remember being at a concert downtown and there was some group there witnessing…..I laughed in their face as we walked by while I intentionally took another shot of whatever liquor we were drinking. My heart was so hardened.

    My mom had decided to contact the principle of my school, a rehab program in Utah, and the police. I came home completely high and out of my mind one night, to a cop in my living room and my parents sitting down. At 6am I was being dropped off at the airport to go to rehab. I may have been 17 & 9 months old, but my mom was pulling the minor card out big time. Best decision she ever made, which I now thank her for. I landed in Utah, and that is when the emotional pain surfaced, and I felt shamed, and rejected, and quite frankly I felt like dying.

    I had a Mormon counselor. Oddly enough God used him and his compassion to somehow soften my heart to allow some healing to take place. All that took place as the memories became vivid of the sexual abuse (which I will interject and say that I am sure all of the child care workers seemed great with kids….it was probably the one’s who seemed the best who had the most access to abuse.) With the mask of drug use being off, I was overtaken by fear. The self hatred was unreal. I couldn’t sleep at night. I never wanted to sleep in a room by myself. It was as if I had regressed to being 8 years old again. I felt anger in a way that I had never felt. I had now hated men, and entertained the thought that maybe women would be easier to “date.” But eventually I decided that any form of relationship in general was disgusting and dirty, therefore I would just die alone.

    When I left the rehab program, I decided to stay ‘clean‘. So, once again I had lost a group of friends due to a life change. I was alone once again. I eventually went back and graduated high school. I was depressed, had gained 50 lbs., developed horrible acne as a result of drug use, and I wanted to have no resemblance as a woman. I spent hours locked in my room just sitting. I didn’t want any company, and I didn’t want anyone to see me out of embarrassment.

    I had a dream one night. It was simple. It was Jesus, and He simply said to me, “You have never met me. And I have wanted to meet you for a long time now. You know OF me, but you don’t KNOW me. You’ve got nothing to lose, so would it be okay if we met someday?” I woke up immediately, and felt as if something was standing next to me.

    I started hearing this ‘voice‘. It was the same voice in that dream. I would be going about my business at NA meetings or pumping gas, and then I would hear, “I have seen your suffering.” Or, “The enemy has been at work, and I want to help you.” I thought these were just standard withdrawals from drugs……but it felt different. It somehow felt comforting. I asked for “it” to speak to me more often.

    I sought out ministry schools, churches, you name it. Each one brought worse pain. Church splits, weird prophetic words of all these “curses” I needed to renounce in my life. Words that I needed to ask for forgiveness to people in order to be “set free”. Blah blah blah. Same old Christian politics. Maybe I am just worthless??? Maybe I was a mistake??? I am just one big walking irritancy to the human race.

    I sought secular counseling. Actually, that proved to be more helpful than anything. Go figure. I am still not sure how deep breathing exercises & finding my inner peace helped, or releasing balloons to the mountains & blowing bubbles into the wind helped, but they validated me, and made humanness seem worth something. What a concept?! Slowly I began to succumb to the Holy Spirit’s tug on my heart, and I when I did, everything changed for me. I stood on my bed one evening and told the Lord, “If you are so powerful, if you are truly a savior, then come and save me, dammit!” Guess what? He did. How’s THAT for a prayer in asking Christ into your heart? I love that the Lord isn’t religious. Ha ha! (Of course many more prayers of deeper repentance & desire for the Lord followed. Repentance was a word I couldn’t handle at that time, and the Lord was just fine with that.) J I sought out water baptism on my 19th birthday. It, to this day, has marked my best birthday ever! I felt JOY for the first time in life. True, uninhibited joy! That’s even what my name ‘Heather Joyce’ means. God is so freakin cool like that.

    I started reading the Word for the first time in years. I saw no examples of the “getting free” methods that I had endured with little success. (Another side note- Prayer groups are wonderful, and they were catalysts to some healing for me…..but they cannot take the place of just one simple touch from God. ) I found that when I went straight to God, and was honest about my emotions with Him, I experienced great healing. It took a long time to be honest with God. Every time I “fessed” up to an emotion within CLC I got in trouble. Eventually I trusted the Lord. It seems like I had real grace for the first time. I learned it was all about the heart, not my actions. I learned that actions were fruits of genuine character, and if the heart isn’t right then those actions are those like the Pharisees. Nothing but religious hogwash.

    Once my maturity grew a bit, I was able to ask for forgiveness to my family for my teenage years. It was understood ‘why’, but I was still wrong for the way I treated them. The very verse that I was forced to write multiple times as punishment growing up, was the very verse God was using to change my heart. “Children, honor your father & mother which is the first commandment with a promise. That it may go well with you & you may enjoy long life on the earth.” Just one raw, emotional meeting with my family unclogged the drain and water began to flow again. We didn’t need multiple intervention meetings. We didn’t need to call other pastors in to help. We didn’t need years of inspirational readings. We just needed GOD!

    Of course there have been little bumps along the way since then. But they quickly get resolved, and we move on with each other. We haven’t had a “blow out” in years. There is a strength in our unity that will not crumble against attacks, or past hurts. We are honest with one another, and validate one another, and continually show appreciation for how uniquely we were each made. At almost 30 years old I now believe my parents actually love me, and that I was not the problem child from hell who came out of the womb a big mistake that needed fixed.

    My insights would be this for all of those who have children still affected by this. Of course pray. But one thing I have learned is this; know the enemy’s strategy over your child’s life. Praying that God will “get a hold” of them is good, but praying specific is IMO key. When my parents began to pray that fear would be broken, and that the nightmares would stop, and that I could sleep alone in my own bedroom at 21 years old, and that Satan no longer had authority in this family…..things shifted. When my dad stopped correcting me for my anger & cursing, and started asking ME to forgive HIM for not protecting me, well, that shifted things once again too. We don’t wrestle against flesh & blood. I believe the Word in that we are in a spiritual battle. Fight!!!! We already know our “side” wins. I know I may sound like a crazy flakey Christian nut right now, (thanks to the church overplaying the prophetic worldwide) BUT, call the enemy out! He has NO right to your children, whether they are 7, 14, or 35! Get violent in the spirit. Kick some Satan butt! Sure, the adult children may make daily decisions that hinder themselves from the Lord and open themselves up to stuff, but they don’t have that revelation so take up the sword and fight for them! Stand in the gap like no one ever did for them. Prayer is powerful. It is the only thing that brings transformation. (Okay, off of my soapbox.)

    I mean, why WOULD any former PDI child want anything to do with church? It sucked! I “believed” in God, so in my mind that still bought me a ticket to Heaven. I believe the verse that NO one can pluck you from the Father. I believe that if a person truly has given his heart to Christ, you cannot lose salvation. They are considered prodigals, NOT unsaved. A child can walk away from their family, but they are STILL apart of that family. I would encourage those parents to not preach, talk too much about God, or perpetually say you are sorry for what happened. I could resist my parents, but eventually I couldn’t resist God. He IS faithful, and He see’s the injustice. Perfect LOVE casts out all fear….just love your kids, and pray for God’s LOVE to break in. It’s His love that compels me to live Holy. It is His love that I can forgive. It His love that I can love me too. And when the time comes that a child peruses a church, let them do it on their own (unless they ask for help.) I did not even visit the same church as my parents until I had come back to the Lord for 5 years. I needed space to grow with God. I needed the freedom to mess up as a Christian without my parents there to see. I needed to ask questions about God to other’s, and I didn’t really care what my parents thoughts were. I needed to own my relationship with Christ. This was a “me & God” thing, not a “me, my parents, & God thing.” I needed to find my own identity outside of them. But now I am so proud that they are my parents. Now I value their wisdom, and I really only seek THEIR counsel on things in my life. The growth we have experienced as a family has been completely supernatural, and I guarantee the Lord will return your family to Him 10 fold and in ways no human could imagine! It’s like the Lord accelerated relationships, and what should’ve taken years & years of MORE counseling were eliminated because of the Lord’s justice.

    Love is patient, it is kind, it is long suffering……it casts at all fear….it is not proud…..it isn’t rude……in the end love can never fail. (paraphrasing) Love your kids unconditionally. Show patience. Pray strategically. That’s what helped me personally. Now, I am no parent (I do have dogs though ) so I am sure there are aspects that I cannot grasp. Even at almost 30 it seems like my parents know me better than myself. So ultimately you know how to “talk” to your kids. I have had numerous conversations with ex-pastors kids who have needed similar things that I did. So maybe that will help other’s too.
    I have ex-PDI friends that I remain in contact with. They are not living lives for God, but they come to me for advice because they feel like I accept them for who they are. I have seen, like as in me, a softening on their hearts and a slow trickle of God’s love beginning to penetrate their lives. They are believing that there just might be a Jesus out there, and maybe Christianity isn’t so crazy after all. They can smoke in my yard. They can dress how they want. They can come to church hung-over. They can freely speak how they want. I don’t scare them with hell. I don’t tell them how concerned I am for their lifestyles. I don’t show my disapproval to their sexual preferences. I just love on them. There is a difference between tolerance, and love. And they keep coming back for that acceptance. Eventually that love will overtake them, and they will have the same life altering transformation that so many of us have had. The Lord is the one who draws them to Him. We are but vessels. It is not my responsibility to “save” people. Their souls belong to the Father, not man. God can use us as vessels, but the Spirit has to bring the revelation. We can’t.
    As hard as it was for my parents to not remain in sorrow over me, and how they wish they could’ve done things differently, they eventually let it go and began enjoying ME. No longer were they distracted by the past, but they were enjoying the new territory we were walking together. I liked that. So maybe focus on your children for who they are right now, and enjoy them as “people”, and not be too free in showing your sorrow over what things could’ve been like. When I saw the pain grip my parents on a continual basis concerning regrets, I ran. I didn’t want to be around anything or anyone that reminded me of the past. No thanks. (Though I am sure there is a time were everyone in the many family’s out there will talk about it….in the future.) Let them bring it up, unless you feel an urging from the Lord to initiate it. Again, I like how Ted put it that parenting isn’t cookie cutter. So I am just sharing what has helped me, and what I have seen help others. I can promise you this though……. Love DOES wins!

69. Heather on March 27th, 2010 6:34 pm

    John, Aw, Jeez……where to start?! Ha ha. Ummm….

    I like your intellect. I like your analogies. I like YOU. I am bit more forthcoming though, so forgive me if my head is still fuzzy from reading so much. I am black & white, you are all the colors….together we are a blog mess waiting to happen. HA HA!

    I think you may have read into my initial post a little too much, and psychoanalyzed it till no end. The whole perception/tone/conceding conclusion doesn’t seem to line up with the point I was simply making. (Although like Ted said, the analogies and insights about mindsets were fascinating, and agreed upon.) Those are the exact mechanics of SGM.

    I want to help people climb OUT of that mindset though…..not find ways to similarly communicate and keep people there.

    There is no absolve to Che’s, or Larry’s actions. Many have had similar experiences as Ted just wrote about. It is absolutely dumbfounding some of their responses. My whole reason for questioning was simply to try and understand what exactly you would like to see them do about it. A solution. (Which I too don’t want to see them do anything.) It was unclear to me how that post was supposed to help the matter. Did you think it would bring the Tomczak family member to their knees? I saw no purpose in it other than maybe the confrontation somehow helped your own personal agony, and even helped validate other’s anger as well. I was simply concerned that the entire matter was throwing salt in wounds, and just had no benefit.
    But how you over analyzed my initial post is a mystery to me, and I could just as easily turn this whole thing around and say that perhaps YOU are still stuck in some former PDI methodology of perception and communication. I really don’t want to banter back and forth about one’s way of expressing things, and one’s way of perceiving a comment. It is a futile battle which I have no interest in. I am most certainly not offended, and I hope you are not as well.

    I remain as I always have in that I thought your response to the anonymous Tomczak member was ineffective, and I was a little shocked in the manor in which you so aggressively responded. Did it accomplish anything wholesome? Did it advance us in reconciliation? Again, express all you wish, but I don’t believe your “method” is aiding to a solution.

    Prefacing “tones” are aids in communication. Of COURSE your “perceived tone” raised questions in me to your posts! That is why I asked! Tones set a forum for the “feel” of what someone is trying to communicate. Tones evoke emotions. So what exactly are you trying to explain about your Tomzcak Family Member response? That you could’ve possibly been communicating in a loving, Christ like manor, and I “perceived your tone” incorrectly?

    I didn’t see how your choice of communication was aiding to the SGM problem. I feel as though I have 100% defended the rights of those to vent. But I still defend my opinion that some of the attitudes, and comments spoken directly to “leadership” are not helping, and I would bet they make the situation worse. However, God is bigger…..So my initial concerns are being thrown to the Lord, and you owe me no explanation.

    So as you put it, if you are a flake, or self absorbed, or arrogant, or whatever…..it will be all good in the end anyway and blow over. (I say that at times too)

    What I know is this: Larry & Che have not “repented” as a result of your “calling them out.” Nor will they. By all means this is your website, so continue to do as you wish. I will be so bold as to say that I bet it won’t produce what you are hoping for. Nonetheless though, I am sure it helps people’s anger come to the surface, and I am sure it brings up the bitterness that we have all had…..I just hope that you can offer some help and advice to see those people get THROUGH the anger & the bitterness. I am so grateful to have connected with some of the people on here, including you, and I am thankful for you in being so unafraid and actually creating this site.

    But I have no interest in being a part of a “movement” or “website” that IMO will not be an aid to bridging the gap between survivors & current day SGM. Tones, perceptions, thinking too hard, whatever….your words would indicate vindictiveness, and arrogance. You have defended your “words”, yet stayed away from your motive. I now wish there would’ve been a way to privately talk about this, because I have no desire to “correct” something, or put myself in a position to do so. If I have come across as doing so, I wholeheartedly apologize.
    My words are spoken with compassion not because I “may” still be brainwashed from SGM methodology, but I CHOOSE compassion because Christ does. I advocate CHRIST’S method of expression. Dude, this isn’t rocket science. You can go on and on all you want about my objection to your method, and come up with ways to turn it on me, or other readers by placing some form of responsibility on US to not “perceive” your tone. Or to insinuate that we still look at things through an SGM mindset. What?!?!

    Words are words. Are you admitting to being vindictive, or somehow avoiding answering that by going on some long tangent about correct tones, an inadvertently making it appear that somehow I was “off” in assuming you were being vengeful? Really?!

    I certainly don’t want to create any animosity here. And because I appreciate  effective communication, I wish to make clear that I am not angry, or defensive in the least. I am burdened for reconciliation, and for those heading these sites I would hope the goal is mutual. Of not, then OK. I can accept & understand that that may not be the goal here. And that is to each his own, and perfectly fine.
    We are all in the same boat, and desire the same things. We have all been hurt deeply, and desire recognition for the wrongs we endured. I want to be a part of a group that helps heal, promotes forgiveness, and desires to see reconciliation which ultimately comes through humility. I was turned off by the “Word” for years, but it doesn’t matter because His Word is Truth whether I was taught it wrong or not. I got over it. THAT is the model of reconciliation I wish to follow.

    I will continue on in my quest for reconciliation, and you will continue on with whatever it is you are seeking. John, I can’t stress enough how much I appreciate you. I really do. And thank you for your awesome compliments to me as well. I truly do wish you the best, and I pray that God continues to take you awesome places in this journey of life. Maybe one day we will meet up and can enjoy a nice time chatting. Until then, please keep in touch. Iron sharpens iron, and I certainly don’t claim to have the answers to this problem. We all need each other. Blessing, blessings, blessings!!!!! :-) 

70. Lydia on March 27th, 2010 8:28 pm

    Well, I found this site by accident (or was it?) and am thrilled. John, I think I love you. )

    You have defined spiritual abuse tactics brilliantly!

    1. Tone is everything. If you do not ask the question ‘right’ then the question does not deserve an answer.

    2.  As to ”we wrestle not with Flesh and blood but with principalities and power and spiritual wickedness in Heavenly places…”                 So, in other words, never confront or out the wolves.

    I am not from SGM. But this sort of spiritual abuse goes on in many mega churches. It is about control, celebrity and even wealth.

    I first became aware of SGM when CJ hooked up with T4G and I checked him out. My goodness. His new buddies, though, have some of their own baggage they want to keep hidden.

    Friends, you have a duty to warn others and let them know the truth of what is behind the curtain. When I saw behind my mega curtain, I ran away and they tried to ruin me to keep me to keep folks from believing me.  I hvae been called a gossip, bitter, divisive, a jezebel, etc.

    I now consider it an honor.

    The Body of Christ looks nothing like these places.

71. theodore on March 27th, 2010 9:05 pm

    to say your story was riveting Heather does it no justice…my wife and I were(and are) so moved that we feel so close just by virtue of your honesty and candor… would it bother you if I said I was proud of what you did…you have such an inspiring testimony of redemption and deliverance that it blows my mind !…and more importantly you gave us both some hope about our own Sons…the three of them are from 34-32…and they not unlike you earlier, dont want anything at all to do with Jesus…or us for that matter…

    we both are dilligent in prayer…and sometimes when that is more intense the anger from them is greater…so I believe that there is a battle… I just dont always have the spirit for a fight…I know they are Gods , and that he is the one who does the saving… but I am sure you can understand the heartbreak…

    I am so far away from anger as to how it happened there are no words…only concern that we will fellowship again one day…

    I thank you for sharing…I sent emails to you and your Dad…I hope that someday he will answer…no expectations…just a beginning of dialog would be great…also I dont think that the remarks concerning some of the semantics should bother you…I detect nothing but acceptance for you and what you describe…ted

72. Ellie on March 27th, 2010 10:19 pm

    Heather,
    thank you for your 6:31 post. I’m going to have to read it a few times through and let it sink in. I might have some questions for you if that’s ok?
     
    John,
    thanks! I come and read regularly. I just don’t always say something. Things have been pretty busy lately.
     

73. still healing on March 27th, 2010 11:13 pm

    This site takes HOURS to read and keep up with.  BUT – here are my thoughts/comments:  * I had totally forgotten about the Binaca era – thanks for the reminder of that ridiculous conformity long forgotten.  *We thought that PDI stood for Pretty Dxxm Intolerant;  * I know of a precious family whose daughter found herself  “in the family way”, boom!  excommunicated!  no help!  nada!  goodbye!  *I can’t remember the exact wording but I was reminded of the Holocaust in which those who were not of the Arian race (perfect, blond, etc. ) were eliminated.  Too many similarities.  I really believe that “ELDERS” should be “eld/old” and then they would have the experience of having raised children and proven that their parenting methods work and they would, through the experience of parenting have become humbled and would have mellowed through the years of their arrogance.  (Is there any such thing as a humble young man?)  I am teaching about volcanoes and just showed the last days of Pompeii.  I was struct with the thought in reading all these posts that we are hearing the rumblings of an eruption on the scale of Mt. Vesuvious.  Those who don’t heed His rumblings, will be buried with 50 feet of ash.  (They’ll really make an ash of themselves!  Sorry, I couldn’t resist!)  Last points:  We ALL would do so many things differently if we could.  We all have so many regrets.  If we knew then what we know now. . .  but we didn’t so we also need to forgive others and forgive ourselves.  Bottom line:  We were/are all DUMB sheep who got caught up following even dumber sheep instead of  following the Good Shepherd because the dumb sheep who were leading us were bleating so loudly about how they knew what they were doing that we couldn’t hear His voice calling.  But He did leave the 99 and sought us out.  You can’t have a testimony without a (His)story.  And we have whoppers!  We ARE going to make it!  I can hear the hearts melting and the memories being healed!

74. Heather on March 27th, 2010 11:39 pm

    Still healing- Who YOU callin dumb?! HA HA! Do our family’s know each other? You said some very similar “sayings” & jokes as we have. HA HA HA HA! I will have you know that my dad has moved on from Binaca and prefers those red & white striped mints now. Wow. Your post just made my night! Still laughing.

    You encouraged me. You are right, testimonies = HIStory. So true. Thanks. Too easy to forget that. (at least I do.)

    If we don’t know each other, you and my mom could quite possibly become best friends. HA HA!

75. Heather on March 27th, 2010 11:41 pm

    Ellie- Absolutely. I hope I have answers.

76. Steve240 on March 28th, 2010 11:53 am

    One point about PDI/SGM ’s culture is that it is a culture of conformance.  It is similar to what I hear about Japanese culture.  You don’t fit in well if you don’t conform.  This includes asking questions and not parroting their latest lines they expect people to say.
     
    This could explain why some people never really felt it was home or they fit in.
    I was glad to hear that Chuch Thompson also challenged the group’s move towards Calvinism.  One of the biggest issues I have with this move is that they weren’t up front about it but seemed to find a good way to behind the scenes orchestrate the move towards it.  They would do things such as have everyone read Jerry Bridges book about trusting God that promoted the Calvinistic view of Sovereignity.
    Heather
    I am sorry to hear what happened to you while at CLC.  That is really sad when that happens to a child.  It is even sadder that you think this perpetrator is still at CLC.  Of course look at what the leaders did in Noel’s daughter  incident, including almost taking up for the 15 year old boy vs. the girl and her parents.
     
    I am glad you are doing better.
     

77. John Immel on March 28th, 2010 3:56 pm

    Lydia…I always enjoy it when a woman says she loves me.  In this case I’ll let the mere name of a woman boost my ego. LOL

    Thanks so much for your comment. Keep reading… and offer your thoughts as you see fit.  There is a lot here and more coming.  More blogging and some books and CD’s.  It is slow going at the moment: so much to do and so little time.

    Anyway… that is my challenge to overcome.

    Of course I highly recommend the Start Here button.  That will give the best foundation for what this is all about.

78. John Immel on March 28th, 2010 4:02 pm

    Still healing…

    You are always welcome with wit like this: “An ash of himself!!”   ROTFLMBO!   Too funny.

    As for dumb sheep… might I recommend http://spiritualtyranny.com/pass-the-mint-jelly/

    We might be sheep … but we have no mandate to be dumb!  It will be great to watch you get whole!  Someday you will be able to tell that tail.

    John

79. theodore on March 28th, 2010 4:17 pm

    I like the smart sheep analogy myself too…thats the biggest thing to overcome…call it building up self esteem in Christ maybe…its hard to go out and conquer anything when you are hiding inside a closet…

    John I think something is really going on here…and it has nothing to do with CLCC/SGM bashing either…it is a pathway for folks to understand they are really OK…and that God has a purpose for them stil…regardless of what they may have been told…

    but just like you have said…and in my way of speaking…we need to get our compasses  recalibrated…so we can know which way is really up…t

80. Defended on March 28th, 2010 4:18 pm

    When the Membership form changed into a “covenant” we were told matter-of-factly by our pastor that it was because some people had sued some church someplace and this form was meant to keep that from happening with SGM (2002 or therabouts).  I never signed one.

    So now, while I would LOVE public acknowledgement by the SGM Regime of wrongdoings and some true humility being practiced……isn’t that an impossibility due to the risk of litigation?   I mean if anyone deserves to sue it would be Noel & Grizzly and maybe they don’t want to, but if wrongdoing was acknowledged from L0ftness or those who sent him, they would be painting a big fat target on SGM for when Noel’s precious daughter is grown.  No statute of limitations on sexual crimes, right?

    These are things I think about.

    Can reconciliation really happen outside of a courtroom or threat of litigation?  Or would litigation be what it takes to get a display of real humility?

    God have mercy.  God does have mercy.  Thank God.

81. theodore on March 28th, 2010 4:28 pm

    litigation takes a lot of stomach acid…not to mention $$$…I think trusting God to work it out would make it a lot easier for anyone involved, he is not blind in any wayy to such things…and probably a lot more upset than we can comprehend…JMHO… I do not in any way disagree with you that  crime’s were commited…its just the system we live in is not the way we would like to believe it is…it is geared to those that have resources free…

    that of course is the decision of the victim’s…but I am quite sure that the leadership has a predetermined way to deal with such matters…when CLCC was sued by the author of “I’m OK your OK” for the remarks made by Larry Tomczak back in the early 80’s( he alluded in a sermon that the author had commited suicide, which was untrue) they got out of that by the skin of their teeth…they took quite serious things that involve litagation from that time on…t

82. Steve240 on March 28th, 2010 5:50 pm

    Heather
     
    I am glad that your dad was able to find gainful employment after leaving PDI.  A lot of PDI/SGM Leadership have worked as pastors most of their life and would have a hard time finding any type of gainful employment if they left SGM.  Consequently these leaders are reluctant to question as your dad did and many time will be forced to parrot what comes down from who some call the “pope” of the group.
     
    C.J. Mahaney from what I have heard never worked a secular job and also has never had to report to anyone.  He has always been the one in charge or perhaps co in charge.  Just something to think about.  He can come and go as he pleases since he is the boss.

83. Heather on March 28th, 2010 7:12 pm

    Hey, Steve! Yeah, most of the “first” pastors were all so young and had no other job experience whatsoever.  Actually, most of ALL of the pastors abroad within SGM went directly to the pastor’s college. Maybe a few have degrees, but still no outside working experience. All the more reason to “secure” your position, especially for those supporting young family’s.

    I know my dad had a little success in paper sales right out of college, but when you leave the world of business to become a pastor for 20 years & then walk out on your “ministry career” at 45 years old…….yeah he basically had to start from the ground up like any 21 year old fresh outta college. Fortunately at the time our economy was in a much better state than it is now.  He had to work hard, but it was work he could do with integrity.

    At least our nation’s government is set upon checks & balances. If our government DIDN’T have opposing sides (Dem vs. Repubs, etc.) then we’d be even more outta whack than ever. SGM would believe that hey have a checks & balance system for accountability, but when everyone believes the same thing it’s impossible to be kept in “check.” So basically leadership can justify an agreed “amen” on an issue and go about as they wish with no real “checks & balances.” Very scary.

84. DB on March 28th, 2010 8:08 pm

    Wow, Heather, I never really thought about that aspect of leaders leaving the church, it makes me admire your family all the more. It’s sort of like the SAHM that tries to go back into the work world without any real-world experience. I know how that feels, well, no, I don’t. I know what it feels like to go back to school after over 25 years of being a SAHM and that was enough of a challenge.

85. Steve240 on March 28th, 2010 10:51 pm

    Heather
    You talked about “checks and balances.”  A number of churches and denominations outside of SGM have that.   In a lot of churches, there are a group of elders that are composed of members who work day jobs that oversee what the pastor does.

    Early in the formation of Gathering of Believers (later to become CLC) Mahaney especially emphasized plurality of leadership.  He would say that there should never be one senior position but that the leadership should be shared by a group of men.  Later the Sr. Pastor position was created which he served on for a while and now serves as the leader position for SGM.

    Having no senior position created somewhat of checks/balances.  Now there isn’t even that.  We can see the result.

86. Paula on March 29th, 2010 1:10 pm

    I realize I’m very late to this party, but the word “covering” caught my eye, and I thought I’d offer a visual explanation of spiritual “covering”. But the humorless are hereby forewarned of the snarky nature of the visual:
    The Magic Umbrella
     

87. John Immel on March 29th, 2010 3:34 pm

    ROTFLMBO!!!!  

    That was funny!  O love it! 

    But Paula.. your a piker when it comes to snark.

    I am the King of Snark. 

    as will be abundantly shown by my nest post.   Fruads, Papists and European Religion. 

    The Pod cast should be done tonight. 

    I have abandon adorably blunt… for… well … Caveat Emptor!

88. John Immel on March 29th, 2010 3:39 pm

    And oh by the way… Welcome to my humble abode… and as you will see.. I shoot back in my house too.  LOL (a little inside joke between Paula and I)

    and if you haven’t caught my oother efforts at snark…

    http://spiritualtyranny.com/the-very-important-things-of-blog-apostleness/

89. Paula on March 29th, 2010 3:43 pm

    |:•D
    A piker, you say? Harrumph! I shall see your snarky link and… um… snark back!         someday

90. still healing on March 29th, 2010 4:33 pm

    You don’t ever bite the hand that feeds you.  CLC/SGM pastors’ interpretation, “Never challenge or ask questions of the guy who signs your paycheck.”  It’s a “nuh, DUH!”  ‘nuf said.

91. theodore on March 30th, 2010 8:55 pm

    I would like to make a little follow up…and give some really beautiful news…my old friend…and once leader in CLCC , Chuck Thompson…just had a very nice conversation…and we have set aside all that happened in the past…and are now conversing about what may happen in the future…to the glory of God…reinforcing the relationship we share in Christ Jesus…
    this is all a direct result of this site and also the refuge one…PTL…there is actually life after all this…and for me it has been 25 years…God is faithful for sure…and his timing is quite fine with me…if you only knew how much this means to me…and I just hope somethging similar happens for you all !
    my challenge here is for folks to not allow bitterness or sorrow to disallow your chances to get things right…it can happen…and my prayers for 25 years were this weekend answered…rejoice with us both…ted

92. theodore on March 30th, 2010 9:34 pm

    CJ…Chip Ward had a prophecy back in 75?…it was a direct quote from Shakespeare…”where then is thy sting death”…do you remembner that?? I do, as do many more that will take the time to recollect…and all I can say is that the sting has finally been removed…you might want to take a second look at all this…ted…some of us are cursed with a remarkable memory…but now it is a blessing…

93. theodore on March 30th, 2010 11:00 pm

    BTW…. CJ…I hope you are watching…Chip Ward had a prophecy back in 75?…it was a direct quote from Shakespeare…”where then is thy sting o’ death”…do you remember that?? I do, as do many more that will take the time to recollect…and all I can say is that the sting has finally been removed…you might want to take a second look at all this…some of us are cursed with a remarkable memory…but now it is a blessing…ted…

94. John Immel on March 30th, 2010 11:07 pm

    CJ… reading MY Blog?  

    hahahhah… too funny.  that i think would be in the definition of Irony!

95. John Immel on March 31st, 2010 12:28 am

    And I’d suspect that is barking up the wrong tree … exhorting Vicar Charles Joseph with prophesies, visions and dreams…

    Not sure what that prophesy was… but if it is some variation of evil portent for some spiritual failing…. Shrug… not sure what that does for anyone

    Besides … we want CJ to live
     

96. DB on March 31st, 2010 9:33 am

    Theodore,

    Your words are beautiful.

    And, yes, indeed, there is a lot to look forward to in the future.

97. theodore on March 31st, 2010 11:32 am

    I would also like to underline something else important for me…That CJ, his family and others involved in our conversation do indeed have a healthy and happy life…only I would like to see them discontinue the practices that have been so destructive in the lives of so many… this is something that is not going to go away by ignoring it. God sees all…

    this is also where I will remind those posting here to guard themselves against bitterness and anger on this all…it will only hurt you more by allowing this sort of  behaviour in your life…get counseling if this is something you cant manage yourself…and of course pray for those that have offended you.t

98. Steve240 on March 31st, 2010 2:04 pm

    theodore said:
    “I would also like to underline something else important for me…That CJ, his family and others involved in our conversation do indeed have a healthy and happy life”
    One thing I would point is that yes C.J.’s daughters seem to be having a healthy family life but much of that may be due the environment they are in.  Look what happened to Heather when she was moved out of the SGM environment.  I am sure they would have similar problems if they were taken out of this environment.  Also the Mahaney girls are princesses by virtue of being daughters of the group’s “pope.”

99. theodore on March 31st, 2010 2:28 pm

    whatever the case…I understand that the gains that certain people leading that organization may have are at the total expense of others…I am not foolish , I see that all too well…I was there from the beginning…probably in all honesty know much more than most. I merely know for a fact that correcting them, other than bringing up testimony that may illuminate their behavoiur, there is really not much I can do…for them that is.

    however since I do love myself…and this is something I had to correct in me after my departure from their midst, I am not going to allow the past dictate to me my future… as those who have more and more distance from their experiences see more clearly…

    the entire organazation is an enigma to me…something that I just cant understand at all…however I do firmly believe in my own doctrine, that before the church is truly perfected , all this will have to be dealt with…something I will leave in Gods hands…

    the only reason I have shared the things I have anbout my past experience’s with CLCC was to show some others out there that they are not alone…and after reaching out to one of the Pastors that I hacd my unfortunate experience w/ 25 years ago…(which happened directly because of this forum)I found a way for peace and reconciliation. So it was worth it to make myself a bit vulnerable here.  As it has been for Heather and others too…anyone that wants to languish in the past can do that if they care…I for one want to see positive results for people that are open to it… the rest… will have to figure it out for themselves…I just think my way is a better one…JMHO…

    all the best…t

100. DB on March 31st, 2010 2:34 pm

     I have no doubt that the Mahaney femails have a sort of gilded (sp) cage sort of happy existance. What concerns me, deeply, is that they teach other women that their lifestyle is the standard for godly womanhood.

     Trouble is, the Mahaneys live a very privileged life that cannot be easily replicated by the average female listener that doesn’t have all the resources at her fingertips that the aforementioned Mahaneys have come to take for granted.

101. theodore on March 31st, 2010 2:38 pm

     DB,very wisely stated…as the scripture says,” I would rather be a doorkeeper in his fold”…

     at what cost is all that wealth?…not something I would want to be responsible for…quite frankly it scares me…always has…t

102. PDI Past on April 2nd, 2010 11:07 am

     Heather and Sandy – it is wonderful to see how God has provided for your family through challenges and times of darkness.  So many times when I look back on my life, I gain greater appreciation for God through the reminders that, even in those times that I was not seeing Him – often because my back was turned on Him – He was still there, just waiting for me to come to my senses and accept His grace.

     My family came to know the Lord and accept His gift of Salvation, while attending FCC, starting in 1990, 1991 or so (I can’t remember the date for certain, but it was about a year before the new building site was selected).  At that time we were blessed by a wonderful homegroup leader and a close fellowship within the homegroup.  God used His ministry through these folks to help us grow so very much in those years.

     I can remember the first confusion experienced as we saw leaders depart for reasons that were only vaguely stated by Benny, in the months after moving into the new FCC building.  Within a very few years, it was Benny that was departing for training, restoration, reassignment (I have lost track of all the terms), ending up in Florida with Metro and Danny Jones.

     A calling to ministry in a very different setting, led to our family leaving the US in the late 90’s.  Even as far away as we were, the news of the seemingly endless departure of leaders became known to us, along with the appointment of Mark M. to lead what used to be FCC.  Strange doesn’t even come close to describing it.

     From reading the posts on SGM Survivor, SGM Refuge and on this site, it seems that the leadership departures fall into two general categories:

     1)  Those leaders that were seen as potentially standing in the way of future plans of SGM/CJ Incorporated (either by asking questions or actually threatening the leadership scheme).

     -or-

     2)  Those leaders that personally (or through family connection) were purportedly involved in some act of misconduct -AND- who were not close enough to the center of power to be protected.

     It seems that the non-leadership folks – those that in the SGM world that were not “higher than” care group/home group leaders, were more easily dispensed with.  They were/are simply deemed to be “in rebellion” and cut-off.  No need to really dress anything up to cover the reason for their departure.

     As I read the various posts, I find that I experience a mix of feelings:

     - I can most clearly remember the day that we accepted Christ into our hearts; and the day we were baptized.

     - I remember wonderful homegroup meetings with friends that were closer than family.

     - I feel deep sadness and anger when I hear of the spiritual abuse that people have suffered at the hands of those who claimed to have been called as leaders.  I know that God will deal with it in His time.

     - When I hear of the sexual and physical abuse suffered by people at the hands of those who would call themselves “Christians”, I struggle with the ugly anger and desire for retaliation that was a part of my old nature and does not please God.  I need to be better about releasing this and knowing that God will also deal with this in His time.

     God has been good to my family in the years following PDI.  We have been blessed by the opportunities that He has provided us to minister in His name.  The church that we now serve as pastors, is one that is truly for the Whosoevers of this world.  It is messy, crazy and wonderful.  Families with kids worshiping Jesus Christ alongside of addicts, homeless brothers and sisters and people just looking for answers in a confusing world.

     God used those early years at FCC to set us on the journey He was calling us to.  I will always be grateful for that.  I will always be saddened by the lives that have been harmed by PDI/SGM.  In God’s wisdom and in His timing, that too will be resolved.
      
      

103. theodore on April 2nd, 2010 8:07 pm

     your story I am very sure will inspire others…also your questions…we dont always have to have the answers ourselves…only trust that God does…

     …after 25 years I am again friends with my old pastor, who was also the same person who asked me to leave CLCC…and it is a beautiful thing regardless of what was perpertrated on us back then…I amso  humbled by my old friend’s courage to confront the past…I doubt that there are one in a million that could do the same…

     time is something that we are confronted with…faith is for sure something that can conquer it…but I must admit that this is something ordained by God entirely for not only my health…but also my friends…

     we can get so  far off track when we do not follow the basics…it is a lesson learned for me… never allow anyone to pursuade me to do things that I do not have a total peace with…t

104. Steve240 on April 2nd, 2010 9:18 pm

     Here is an interesting discussion about Larry Tomckzak’s alignment with Rice Brooks:
      
     http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/26459.html?1188881433

105. still healing on April 4th, 2010 5:39 pm

     An interesting note to the life of Mrs. Mahaney and possibly other leadership wives of the highest eschelon.  THEY had what they called “handmaidens”!  Single women who would come to their house and for the privelege of being able to spend time with them, lift the burden of everyday house work from their shoulders.  Very close relationships developed through that, to the point that the relationship between the Mahaneys and Dillons was rent assunder because the later would not attend the wedding of one “handmaiden” because she was marrying a divorced man.  So the fealty to the handmaiden was strong than to the sister.  Betcha didn’t know THAT!! 

106. still healing on April 4th, 2010 5:41 pm

     PDI Past – another reason for someone leaving was seeing how things “went” and not being willing to wait for the axe to fall on them, knowing it was just a matter of time.

107. Sandy on April 4th, 2010 6:22 pm

     I don’t know if this has ever been mentioned but when your paycheck is intricately intertwined with the “head” person/s, it is very scary to resist or correct instructions/directions.  This is especially true for those coming from a Catholic background, which, as we can see even now in the news, one NEVER, ever suggested, much less reported that the priest, sister or pastor could possibly have done anything wrong or asked someone to do something sinful.  This doesn’t at all excuse what was done but the culture that was established and the peer pressure was absolutely enormous.  As has been said before, they created an atmosphere of being our mediators (also a Catholic MO), godlike leaders, not to be questioned.  When Chuck told the “men” that we were leaving the church, they “grilled” him for 10 hours about how he wasn’t supposed to leave (rather than saying,  ”Brother, if you feel that is the Lord’s leading then  go with our blessings!)  At the table of the “inquest” was another pastor who felt it was wrong to hound Chuck this way but participated because of the peer pressure.  We know this because, a few years later, after leaving SGM himself, he called and asked forgiveness and told us that even then, he KNEW it was wrong.  We were all young, and very easily deceived by masters of deception and we wanted very much to serve the Lord.   Again, I am not excusing ANYTHING!!!!  I am just giving the other side of the story so you can hear both sides.  I know from our perspective (and I haven’t even expressed what I endured) we were manipulated and coerced to do many things that we didn’t have faith to do, but wanting to be good obedient soldiers in the army of the Lord, it is Yes Sir and get it done fast! And whatever you do, DO NOT ask the Lord if He agrees with it.  There is no need to do that.  We, the lead pastors say it, that should be enough.  Get moving!  The point of this winding blog is:  No excuses but there were extenuating circumstances, at the time, to do things that were not in our hearts, until God graciously, helped us limp away. 
     And PDI Past, what was told to the congregation about why we were leaving, was a concocted story to maintain face of the leadership, because everyone, everyone, was shocked that we were leaving, so they had to make it look like we were leaving to be with Larry in Fairfax.  So we had to turn down a great job opportunity that had come Chuck’s way, just to protect them!  More coercion! 
     Please, please – hear my heart.  I am not trying to discount anyone’s pain and suffering!  If anything, I hope the understanding of the situation will lessen the pain.  We were unknowingly their puppets.  We are praying for all those hurt over the years and very much desire to ask forgiveness so the healing can take place. 
     I humbly submit this – really in fear of offending anyone!  (Another product of 20 years in PDI) 
     Well – here goes!  I’m going to press the button to submit!  AHHHH!!!

108. PDI Past on April 4th, 2010 7:18 pm

     Sandy and Still Healing,
     As I have been reading accounts of others on “Survivors” and “Refuge” over this past year, I have been saddened by the pain, manipulation and harm that has been experienced by so many.  I completely understand that, as Still Healing noted, some leave because they start to see the handwriting on the wall; the looks; the withdrawal of “friends”.  Others, as Sandy observed, are frightened to speak-up.  Not maybe because of a fear of physical harm, but more frequently because of the lasting effects of the psychological manipulation that was placed upon them.  I guess in a strange way, it is like encountering a particularly frightening school vice-principal long after leaving school . . . they still intimidate us, although they have no actual power over us.  If guess it doesn’t make sense, but it is still reality.

     In my case, there are aspects of my story that I have not shared, because it would identify my family too specifically.  I have no reason to be fearful of anything they could do to me or any difficulty they could cause us, but still. . .

     We were simply dropped from the FCC church membership rolls without explanation.  The only way we found out was by receiving a copy of the printed church directory, and noticing we were missing.  When I asked about it, we were simply told that they were “not our covering anymore”.  On a positive note, this didn’t involve any accusations, inquisitions or put anyone to the trouble of making things up about us . . . just gone.

     Unfortunately, there is little that can be done about SGM/CJ Incorporated.  Although they have incorporated as a “Non-Religious Corporation” in Maryland, I suspect that their financials and internal governance looks pretty good when viewed by a tame auditor.  Absent some clear allegations of any legal violations or tax code offenses, government is pretty hesitant to do much with churches.  

     Unless their is a break-down in their internal “spin-control” that results in serious loss of members and financial difficulties, the machine will continue into the future, chewing up and spitting-out generations of members.

     Eventually, God will deal with them – preserving the good and punishing the evil.  This will take place in His timing and His way, but it pains me to see people harmed until that day comes.  I am so glad that God’s wisdom is so much greater than mine!
      

109. theodore on April 4th, 2010 7:35 pm

     I read your post an am very moved…I think we share a lot of things by virtue of the fact that we never really understood our seperation…
     
     all I can say is that there is for sure life after all this…it took me 25 years to get a resolve…I know thats a very long time indeed…I pray , as I am sure many others do here, that your journey is not so long…and that you also recognize that our God is bigger than all of this…

     there are no words that will make the pain of the past go away completely…but there are for sure words(of a man) that will bring new life…please do not in any way see what happened at that situation make you not forgive or for that matter seek what God has for you…

     you are way too important for that…there is something special that God has ordained for you to accomplish…and the past should never in any way impede that…it already has enough…

     I pray that God will open your eyes in a way to see his special place for you…these hurts are so great!…and I only after a very long time understand it better, but that in no way should down grade anything for our futures……ted

110. theodore on April 4th, 2010 8:00 pm

     those are some deep thought’s Sandy…and very well put together…I for one hold no ill feelings whatsoever…and as you know there is a redemption to all this…maybe it takes a while…nevertheless it is so real !

     I think from my point of view that there is an underlying theme or problem here…so many people were hurt,wounded or even destroyed by the ministry of SGM…PDI…or in my own case CLCC or Gathering of believers etc…that there is first a serious need for healing from that initial consequence of all that…then there is a requirement that God makes of us to forgive those that wronged us…yes, that is for sure a mouthful…but in my mind it is the beginning of true healing…and that in no way guarantee’s us anything other than our own conscience being cleared…something that should never be in any way demeaned or marginalized…its a beginning point…

     but this is where the mystery begins for me…how long does it take for us to become valid again.???I think it is closely related to how much we are able to forgive…and this is a factor related to more of our own healing than anything else…

     thanks so much for sharing your heart…your courage is noticed for sure…ted

111. DB on April 5th, 2010 10:45 am

     Oh, I remember the handmaidens in Philadelphia as well. They were the houseslaves of the leadership class. They were never actually distributed to people who were overwhelmed with young children or in poor health, funny  how that happens.

112. theodore on April 5th, 2010 10:57 am

     thats a humorous handle…”handmaidens”…there was also a male counterpart too…being an Elder(or Elders wife) for sure had its share of perc’s…also there was a curious and subtle guilt dished out if you did not help out when asked…or even worse if you resented the fact that maybe some real needs were not being met…

     in the beginning the service attitude was very wholesome…and there was a good fruit enjoyed from all involved…we really strived for a “second chapter of acts” envirinment ,it just evolved , as did many other things to a point where it was no longer healthy…I know I burned out on doing service for folks…and that was not good…I really never minded helping anyone in need…but I started to establish(in my mind anyway) a “need or want” criteria….the want part started to be more the norm…

     the young people , mostly singles, were the ones exploited the most…it was sort of an entry point or apprenticeship mentality…with a big bone waiting at the end… unfortunately, like many other things that started out with excellent intentions , eventually went sour… and had an effect totally opposite of what was initionally desired…that is unless your grass was being cut…or your house was being cleaned…LOL…t

113. musicman on April 5th, 2010 3:38 pm

     Not sure if Heather is still reading,  if I am reading you correctly, the folks that abused you as a child are still active in CLC children’s ministry.
     Is that correct?

114. Lydia on April 5th, 2010 3:54 pm

     “Eventually, God will deal with them – preserving the good and punishing the evil.  This will take place in His timing and His way, but it pains me to see people harmed until that day comes. ”

     I am always a bit confused when I see this statement concerning spiritual abuse in any form. It makes me wonder why Paul had any need to write the Epistles? Wouldn’t God take care of all the problems, wrong teaching, wolves, etc?

115. John Immel on April 5th, 2010 5:17 pm

     Yea… Lydia… I marvel at that sentiment too. Why give pervasive warnings?  Why point out any error if some how it’s all God’s responsibility to fix all the bad.   We have been so indoctrinated towards passivity… that we tend think NON action is somehow spiritual, NON advocacy is somehow devout and absolutely fail to realize that that NON action is an action.

     How many times do we have to prove the Edmund Burk axiom?   “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” 

116. PDI Past on April 5th, 2010 6:11 pm

     John and Lydia,
      
     I don’t disagree with either of you.  It is not my thinking that God calls us to be passive observers of wrong-doing at all.  I think that He calls us to fight injustice and to do all that we are able – as we are able to discern His leading – to overcome those that would do harm to His people.   This calling is regardless of whether those doing the harm are wolves concealing their identity with a nice sheepskin or shepherd’s cape – or wolves who are not concealing their nature.
      
     Where I struggle, is knowing how the SGM/CJ machine can be stopped.  Those that are drinking the Koolaid by the gallon are very happy in the environment.  Reality has been redefined for many of them.  Some have become invested at a number of levels in the machine and fear what they might find when they look behind the curtain.  Apart from God’s leading and strength, how can this be changed?
      
     As long as SGM/CJ are investing financially in other ministries, they will not ask the hard questions.
      
     As long as the “mission strategy” is to plant churches in demographically lucrative communities, the money will flow.
      
     Some of the previous leadership are not in a position, nor do they have any motivation to rock the boat.   Take Che Ahn for example . . . Look at the place Harvest Rock Church owns for a meeting place:  http://www.theambassadorauditorium.org/
      
     Given the corporate structure adopted by SGM/CJ Incorporated, and the wholly-owned subsidiary churches “within the family”, those who are current members actually have no real legal recourse against just about anything the machine choses to do.
      
     For the sake of those that are still within the SGM world, I hope and pray that God soon reveals a way forward – or brings a dramatic change to the path being pursued by these leaders.
      

117. theodore on April 5th, 2010 8:22 pm

     great post…one thought I have about all this…the economic issues you alluded to are real…but I for one think that the world as we know it is about to change…not only economically, but also politically…

     I think we try to second guess God a lot…which is not really bad…it is just us trying to understand with our minds what is really going on…and that is the way that God created us…to discern, question and calculate…

     I sincerely do believe that the only way many of these issues will be exposed , it will be when the things that many take for granted are dismantled…security…the status quo etc…something many have disregarded because somehow that is a thought from the past…you know the “end times” thing…think what you want…but I feel that so many questions, and discrepancies we see in the church today will be corrected in harder times…obviously we have not corrected things in times of plenty…or it would have for sure been done when things were so bright…circa 1997-2007…evidently the church at large only looked to advance itself…and not neccesarily the heart of God…JMHO…

     this is not all over yet…there will be many things of serious interest in the not to far distant future…answering many questions we all have…look out where your treasures are…times are coming that will catch many by super surprise because they have put their love and hope in things they can touch and hold onto…not things in their spirit…

     either way it will all be made obvious and clear..those that have stored up oil for there lamps will do well…and I am not talking about material things…moreso things that increase our relationship with Jesus Christ…ted

118. DB on April 5th, 2010 9:52 pm

     I have a very difficult time thinking of abusive people maintaining access to children as a result of the aforementioned circumstances.

     I’m afraid to tell you how I think I would respond if anything happened to a child close to me..

     We are our brothers keepers, we must fight injustice.

119. Defended on April 5th, 2010 11:26 pm

     PDI past — if you feel like it I would be glad to chat more about the ol’ Benny/ f c c days.  Or did MM dismiss you?  Email if you want to, at defended1 at gmail dot com if you want to email.
     when were you there/not there?  before or after the oldest daughter eloped? I’m wishing someone could help me find out how the guy who used to lead worship is doing – Chris – he was dismissed from the payroll; probably spoke up one too many times in a meeting.  Makes me sick the Noel/Grizz family was suffering so much and S.S hank was right in residence, ya know?

120. John Immel on April 7th, 2010 11:05 am

     PDI Past…
      
     I wanted to offer this up in addition to your comments.
      
     You are sooo right… The SGM faithful  have had reality redefined for them.  That is exactly right.   And here in is the problem and the solution to the SGM machine, which is anecdotal for the rise of tyranny we are seeing in the United States.  We have all had reality redefined for us.
         
     Notice how powerful the redefined reality is:  two stories of sexual molestation on this blog alone, where the abused were ousted and the offenders were embraced.   So potent is this redefinition that as near as I can tell fathers were willing to suck up the injustice, and fade into the background.  (As a father I would never sleep, heaping tons of grief on any “leadership” that could justify such insanity. I would rail and expose and expose and rail until they too were awake at night with the clatter, and grieved for having ever met me.  And I would revile any preacher who even hints that they get to stand unopposed in their lunacy.  But maybe that is just me.)

     Notice how many people still filter resisting the SGM machine through a specific method of expression.  That somehow we must play a nice gentlemen’s game in the face of others making every effort to clear the field of opposition by any means available.

         
     It is fascinating that people can be talked out of their justifiable outrage.  I find it revealing that people can be cowed into “careful” “cautious” fawning inaction in the face of such moral, intellectual, and spiritual bankruptcy.

      
     Do people really want to know what the solution is?  Do they really want the prescription for the problem?  Are you sure?  This is Morpheus sitting before Nero offering the blue and red pill.  All I am offering is for you to see how deep this rabbit hole goes.  All I am offering is awareness: SELF AWARENESS.   What is on the other side is the ugly, jagged, harsh reality.
        
     So … reality check dear Spiritual Tyranny readers?

121. Paula on April 7th, 2010 11:19 am

     We have come to the point where Christians are the last to recognize, much less act upon, any injustice. We only recognize “complaining” or “disagreeing” as sins, because right and wrong are defined by the people we allow to boss us around. So the pedophile “minister” is sinless while the victim and any who stand up for them are sinners. It’s twisted and evil.
     I think it’s time for “an eye for an eye”. But unlike some religions that cut off the hands of the thief for example, the Christian response would be to demand restitution and exact a financial penalty. The pedophile should be, on first offense, put through rigorous psychological and spiritual reconditioning. Any further offense should be punished with castration. And if that doesn’t stop them, they should die. That’s justice.

122. Steve240 on April 7th, 2010 3:24 pm

     John you said
     “as near as I can tell fathers were willing to suck up the injustice, and fade into the background.”

     From what I have seen “Grizzly” (Noel’s husband) didn’t stand up to the injustice.  He was there with his wife.  Maybe you think this since it has mostly been Noel sharing the story?

     As you may recall the molester in this case was a 15 year old boy.
     This couple’s actions includes attending a hearing that was held to have the molester’s records purged or at least hidden.  This would have allowed this molester to join the military which is what I understand the molester wanted.  This couple both testified against having this done.  Sadly Noel reported that the leaders of the Fairfax SGM Church were at this hearing wanting the records hidden and looking at this couple with daggers because they testified against the boy.

     Noel and Grizzley said they really felt they needed to testify against the boy since he seemed to be unrepentant.   They indicated that he was at one Fairfax SGM care group meeting and the boy was heard saying “that ought to satisfy them” after his confessing what he did to the group.  The molester (15 year old boy) never seemed to have an attitude of sadness, contrition or even realizing what evil he had done to such an innocent young girl.

     Had the boy shown proper contrition for doing this maybe the couple wouldn’t have fought the purging.  It was sad that the Fairfax SGM Leaders testified to help this molester when he wasn’t showing proper contrition.
     This wasn’t like even hitting a little girl which would have been quite cowardly for a 15 year old boy to do.  This was quite sick and so much worse.

     If one wants to read about what happened to Noel’s daughter and comments one can ready them here:

     Links to this story and subsequent meeting are here:

     http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276&cp=6&wpmp_switcher=mobile&wpmp_tp=10

     http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=583

123. Lydia on April 7th, 2010 4:22 pm

     “It is fascinating that people can be talked out of their justifiable outrage.  I find it revealing that people can be cowed into “careful” “cautious” fawning inaction in the face of such moral, intellectual, and spiritual bankruptcy.”

     John, the ANSWER is right there in 1 Corin 5! Christians do not realize it applies to their leaders. Paul even gives  a list.  He repeats a similar list elsewhere and we see it again in Revelation

     But these sheeple have been taught to JUDGE the outside world.  To fear it and hate it and to think of themselves as above it. The exact opposite of what Paul teaches. So, they cannot fathom that they ARE to judge (that is not just the province of leaders…Paul was writing to the entire church) those INSIDE the Body. That includes their evil leaders or those who coddle the evil ones.

     I am with you…if someone touched my daughter I would be dogging them day and night until locked behind bars for life. They can be forgiven and ministered to behind bars for life. Even the Calvinist Jonathon Edwards taught that one has to have time to know if true repentance occured. Even then, that does not have anything to do with civil consequences of a crime.

     But note that the secular world deals with sexual perversion against kids in a much more serious way. A public school principal/teacher can be fired for even a hint of such a thing. The secular world goes after convictions and jail.

     But Christian leaders sweep it under the rug? There is a reason. It is about IMAGE. They are protecting their righteous image. That, my friends, is Pharisetical.

124. Lydia on April 7th, 2010 4:30 pm

     One more question: Why is it thought of as less evil when committed by a church goer?

     When I read Noel’s story I got the impression the big dogs blew it off as a teenager simply experimenting and he was ’sorry’. I was floored! Are they that ignorant?

     It crossed my mind that because it was a teen MALE molesting a 3 year old GIRL, it was not that big a deal to them? They still allowed him to work around little kids.

     How anyone could read Noel’s story and walk back into any SGM church just astounds me.

125. SteveW240 on April 8th, 2010 12:31 am

     Lydia said:
     “How anyone could read Noel’s story and walk back into any SGM church just astounds me.”
      
     Well if you remember the discussion, SGM did a few things to counter this report.  One is that they told people within SGM that the story that Noel told wasn’t totally true (pollute the well) though the SGM Leaders according to Noel couldn’t come up with or share what was wrong with Noel’s account.  SGM also offered to bring Peacemakers in for this.
      
     Both moves were quite “brilliant” on the part of SGM to help shield the group from criticism etc.  SGM used a few good manuevering tacticts.
      

126. John Immel on April 8th, 2010 4:02 pm

     Steve..

     You’ve made some of the same observations I have.  The eventual resistance in the courts was some years later… 15 to military age is at min 3 years… but whatever.  The issue is not the kid.  The issue is the ongoing catastrophic bankruptcy of council and the concurrent willingness to sacrifice children (wives?) up against leadership edicts.  I can’t not imagine wanting to ‘reconcile’ with men who have shown such ghastly judgment and suffer no consequence for its outcome.

     Ok maybe as a man and a father, one day you wake up and say “opps my bad… I shouldn’t have done that…” but then where is the corresponding determination to confront such horrific instruction.

     I watched this phenomena over and over and over: men, fathers, husbands… willing to sacrifice the well being of their mates and children for some vague hazy pastoral “approval.”    (An approval that they withhold as they kick people to the curb with impunity???!!!!  An approval that only comes if one returns to them and categorically embraces their considered judgments.  An approval that people continue to seek though they have LONG since departed the culture in some insane hope they prove themselves truly spiritual enough to warrant … what exactly ????)

     How can men be so vacant as to need to borrow the affirmations of other men to find intellectual and spiritual validation?   They will lay down and play nice while their families are being reduced to ash and call their anger and outrage their old nature and absolve them of championing the truly righteous cause?

     I don’t begin to understand this.  Male passivity is a despicable disease.  And indoctrinated passivity that teaches that men SHOULD be passive…  That they are morally obligated to conform to the laws of other men in the face of institutional systemic injustice, exploitation, and destruction …  is just evil.

     How is it that we have become so cowed that we believe it spiritual to watch our children and wives reduced to emotional puddles, spiritual and sexual/social wrecks?   How is it our judgment is warped, being unable to see the cause and effect of beating kids within an inch of their lives and never once attribute the real behavioral failures to a failure of the doctrine?

     How is it that everyone else’s bad ideas and bad doctrine are the culprits of bad behavior but perpetrates of blatant mystic despotism get to say “these are just time tested truths that stand above the good, but failed intentions, and by the way… we are all just sinners?”

     At what point do you have to hand in your testosterone card when you CAN NOT look mystic despots in the face and openly repeatedly, without END say “YOU ARE WRONG?!” 

127. acme on April 8th, 2010 8:36 pm

     John, dear,  the responsibility to speak truth to power is not limited to those with Y chromosomes.  It is a human responsibility.

128. theodore on April 8th, 2010 9:17 pm

     here we go again folks…what do we do know???

     for sure let anyone that needs to ventilate…and reach out to anyone that experienced abuse…but whats next???

     I am not much into dwelling on this too much…but also I am for dealoing w/ the justice…suggestions etc…we all know what happened…we all know it was more than horrible…and now that I am older my anger is really more like sorrow…back in the day I would have been happy to excersize some serious judgement…now I just want to cry… I think I might be actually closer to Gods heart now…at least for this time… the final word is his alone…but we need to live now…and not spend to much time extrapolating on the what if’s, or the atrocity’s…moreso what can be done NOW…

     I continue to post because I want to be relevant like all of us…I am now asking myself  “where do we go from here” ???…

     do we actually propose a serious legal challenge…do we begin a formal ministry to address all these situations??( more than a blog)…I am not interested in just ventilating forever are you??..

     all the best…ted

129. DB on April 9th, 2010 8:05 am

     John,

     Institutional passivity in any group of human beings is a despicable disease because it sets up the environment in which abuse is the natural outcome.

130. John on April 9th, 2010 11:07 am

     Acme… too true…  and as near as I can tell, if the blog world is any indication, the women are represented VERY well.  I just wanna know where the card carrying fraternity of Testosterone is hanging out so I can collect their membership cards.
     

     DB   … yup … yup… and yup.      

131. musicman on April 13th, 2010 1:57 am

     John-
     Your summary (as well as Paula, Steve, and others) are exactly why I currently choose to not take my kids to church…I am tired of feeling that I can’t trust Christians to do the right thing and keep abusers out of classrooms and pulpits.
     The local church is a failed utopian experiment that has very little to do with the Kingdom of God….
     When someone invites me I ask 3 questions
     1.  How old are your pastors?
     2.Show me how you handle the money?
     3.How did you handle the last report of pastoral sexual abuse?
     Most are offended I ask, and I’m offended that the don’t know…..ok I’ll stop my little hyper-ventilated rant….thanks for letting me rant…..

132. Defended on April 13th, 2010 2:15 am

     Wow.  Actually I totally get it, mm.  Thank God our kids are old enough that the nursery/kiddie classrooms aren’t an option.  But we took a different tack and disclosed almost everything, using the info as teaching moments to prepare them to be Bereans for their whole lives, hopefully.  Now, it doesn’t help them get into the “inner circle” in their current youth group, no matter how much the YP likes Josh Harris et al.  But the long term goal of teaching them to value Scriptures over personalities seems to be going well, so far.

     As for your questions, I for one think they are GREAT!
     And what’s that sermon about the person who is offended having some sin/heart  issue?  ;o)

133. musicman on April 13th, 2010 4:15 am

     Defended-
     yeah…it’s been weird, we’ve enjoyed church for years, even helped start a couple…only to end up wondering why we were doing it?
     I like your idea of being Bereans…I think some of my kids have a healthy dose of it, one of my issues is a child with special needs….funny how when we all the sudden couldn’t contribute to “church” (worship leading, sunday school teaching) to take care of our own child, all that love and fellowship went away….I actually had a pastor (not SG) tell me we had too many problems and good luck with finding a church to help us.
     In a weird way, he was right, we have more issues than most churches care to deal with…so we stopped going , not to mention that we were tired of asking questions and getting no answers….oh well, the other weird thing is that I still really like Jesus and what he has to say about Life, Love ,and God.
     I just am sick of being judged for things that don’t matter and seeing no bravery or courage on issues that do (like injustice and crimes against children…)
     Sorry if I am whining….just not having a good couple of weeks

134. theodore on April 13th, 2010 6:33 am

     having recently trying to join a church again(not a sgm etc) , we found ourselves confronted with the fact that there are a lot of other problems out there in the Church at large … maybe we could help?? we sure are experienced enough…only to find out that a lot of these new non debnomonational places are really refuges for Pastors on the run…

     I liked the three questions MM asked…all very pertinent…I never worried so much about the last, but after being a poster here I can see why its such an important thing…my wife and I found out about one of the situation’s mentioned many years after the fact…and were totally shocked that this went on under our noses…and we did have small boys in the programs back when…

     as far as accountability from leaders, the “free form” groups are a breeding area for a lot of the things we are talking about…SGM just found a very special way to have a cover…but abuse & control issues are a huge problem. Especially the “one man shows”…they are IMHO the worst…something to be very wary of when considering a fellowship…accountability with some more mature leaders is for sure a good starting point…

     my wife and I are now decided to just” sit it out” for a while in regards to all this…way too much stress, and for what…to be called names and accused of division just because we just asked a few polite questions??…

     there is an old saying…”you dont look behind the kitchen door , un less you have hidden there yourself”…too many of these so called pastors run into problems in one place…then just start up something anew and never deal with the real problem…and carry all that baggage with them to the new group…folks…this is for sure an epidemic in the church…

     I would add one serious thing for me to that list…is Jesus Christ preached?? I dont mean some “touchy feely” gospel, that says your OK…you just need a hug…but the real Gospel …where Christ died for our sins so that we may be able to have fellowship w/ him and the Heavenly Father for eternity…this may sound too simple…but I really believe this is where many get off the track. They just arent satisfied with the basic…and start to make provisions for sin by not holding up the bar that really counts…

     this was our experience in the last group we went to…something like…God cares for you…so do we…it sounded totally cool at first, but it became apparent that the teaching was watered down to make many feel comfortable…and the by product was a severe lack of commitment to sound doctrine…which had a whole smorgasbord of problems derived from it…if vthere is indeed a “great falling away” to occur…it could very easily take hold in groups like this… without the solid anchor of a personal relationship w/ Christ…and teaching based on the truth of the Gospel, it is impossible to stay on track…and so many things are allowed in…

     I hope we all find where we are supposed to be…and use the sad things that have happened to us to allow us to be better followers of Christ…t

135. Paula on April 13th, 2010 7:22 am

     “No bravery or courage” is exactly the problem, MM. Leaders will not bite the hand that feeds them, meaning the good ole boys network, not the tithing sheeple.
     I was in The Institution for 47 years, in a conservative denom.,  and there was much backbiting and posturing if nothing else. Nobody cared to know scripture beyond the surface, nobody questioned The Pastor, nobody tolerated deviance from his opinions. Church was a club for showing off one’s fashions (or lack thereof) and checking off the Religion box, then going home to live like the world.
     We had a “pastor” who had been ripping churches apart for his whole career, but the denom. leaders simply passed him around and didn’t tell his next victims anything. He was the most egotistical person I’ve ever met, and I began to hear rumors of his sexual predation only after he finally left town. Yet the people are always blamed. Of course, the people aren’t pure as the driven snow either, but pastors are to be held to a HIGHER standard, and nobody does this.

136. theodore on April 13th, 2010 11:27 am

     there are so many things that are accepted “status quo” among church leaders that are so far off bas that it is pathetic…such worldly behaviour, things that are a disgrace to the gift from God in Christ…

     there needs to be a new generation to take their place if we are to do our mission properly…t

137. acme on April 13th, 2010 1:36 pm

     mm, praying for you and your family–dealing with my own special needs kid.

138. DB on April 13th, 2010 5:42 pm

     Praying.

139. Lydia on April 13th, 2010 6:01 pm

     When someone invites me I ask 3 questions
     1.  How old are your pastors?
     2.Show me how you handle the money?
     3.How did you handle the last report of pastoral sexual abuse?

     Ok, I love this. Gonna steal it.

140. Lydia on April 13th, 2010 6:04 pm

     “do we actually propose a serious legal challenge…do we begin a formal ministry to address all these situations??( more than a blog)…I am not interested in just ventilating forever are you??..”

     No. We tell our stories, give them the negative info and show them the REAL Jesus.  We will be called bitter, liars, mean, divisive, etc but negative truths are never loved. The point is that they are TRUTHS.

     Many times folks will be saved by LEAVING these places.

     I am serious about this.

141. John Immel on April 13th, 2010 6:43 pm

     What next…

     Interesting question… 

     And two very good answers have been offered: Paula and her proactive re-evaluation of historic doctrines, based on a shift in interpretive methods.

     Lydia… Tell the story and refuse to quit telling the story. Refuse to be passive in that recitation.  Refuse to succumb to the erroneous labels that seek to cow the weak of mind and heart.

     And my part of this answer is:  forget Structure.  Structure is irrelevant to governing outcome.  God save us from a “ministry.” Yet one more organization that suffers from the failed Archetype of the Commons. 

     The source of all tyranny is in these five elements:  Universal Guilt, Incompetent Masses, Dictated Good, and Abolition of Ambition, and Collective Conformity.  The DOING of the next step is to understand the scope and function of these elements and be able to answer them.

     Until one can respond to the doctrines, by the power of truth, without appealing to anyone else for authentication… until one can face down the philosophy that undergirds tyranny there is nothing else.

142. John Immel on April 13th, 2010 6:51 pm

     MusicMan… As the King of Rants i think i’m qualified to say that wasn’t a rant. And it wasn’t whining.  That was awesome!

     And your three questions are some of the most incisive that I’ve ever heard.  It sure beats my response:  “Church?  Oh I gave that up for Lent.” And before the Protestants have the opportunity show that they don’t know what Lent is… I point to ANYTHING and say: “My, what a beautiful baby.”

     Trust me guys … try it … it is too much fun. 

143. Paula on April 13th, 2010 6:52 pm

     Know what I think will be poetic justice in eternity? To see the looks on many faces when their great deeds and movements and systematic theologies don’t even merit a footnote in the Book of Life, while the heroic faith of the unknowns take up many chapters and volumes. “The first shall be last, and the last first” is still true, and God still trips up the strong by means of the weak. That’ll be heaven.

144. John Immel on April 13th, 2010 6:56 pm

     Did you just take a swipe at Systematic Theology?  Gasp!  Say it ain’t soo!!

     >snicker<

145. Paula on April 13th, 2010 7:02 pm

     :•D
      
     And not only a swipe… I also put my finger and thumb in the shape of an L on my forehead in their general direction. And said “nya nya!”

146. theodore on April 13th, 2010 7:46 pm

     well I just dont want to talker…but a walker…I am in the process with another ex pastor (but total friend,  from days past from CLCC,PDI,SGM to form a new ministry)also make an attempt to seek God and find out how we can actually help all the lost sheep out there, that resulted from not only this debacle…but others too…and I think we all know there are a lot…

     we have over 35 years of dealing(in diverse ways) with all the stuff that makes this forum float…having come through so much…there must be a purpose to all of it…it actually has become a pretty exciting time for us both…

     this is in no way a “diss” to any one elses experiences…but since p0sting here I realized that there were so many more people affected by what I though was my own little nightmare
      that it boggles my mind…hence a much closer evaluation as to what I should do…

     I promise more when it is a bit more developed…

     see John…there is a reason for all this!

     like I have posted numerous times…bitterness and anger will only perpetuate our own troubles with all this…I want not only for us all to be overcomers, but also a remnant or leaven that can make a change…t

147. Lydia on April 13th, 2010 8:21 pm

     “this is in no way a “diss” to any one elses experiences…but since p0sting here I realized that there were so many more people affected by what I though was my own little nightmare
      that it boggles my mind…hence a much closer evaluation as to what I should do…”

     I have NO background with SGM but I saw a huge nightmare in the mega seeker churches. Strip away all the vernacular and it is the same exact stuff. Tyranny with a smile. I call it totalitarian niceness. If you go along, we will be nice to you and you are one of us…which is important. If not, we will be nice to you in front of a crowd and ruin you in secret so there is no trail of blood back to us. Happened every day.

     One mega pastor wrote a book on how God built his church with lots of interesting stories that NEVER happened. As a matter of fact, he most often did the OPPOSITE of what the book says!

     What we must understand is that it is the system. It is designed to be maintained at all costs. Any thing that threatens the system must be neutralized at all costs.

     My goal is to help others out of the system and into a personal relationship with Christ. Not trying to get around their celebrity pastor. Folks learn best from stories, too.

148. musicman on April 14th, 2010 1:20 am

     Thanks for the encouragement and prayers….makes me smile a little to know I’m not alone…
     and John is right…he is the King of the rant….keep it up.
      

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